Dorothy Levitt - early motoring
#1
Posted 19 February 2009 - 12:34
Penelope Keith recreates a journey from London to Liverpool in 1905, based on Dorothy Levitt's notes
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/b00hq4fd
Roger Lund
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#2
Posted 19 February 2009 - 12:37
#3
Posted 19 February 2009 - 23:02
Here in the Confederate States of America (CSA) we only receive one BBC feed.
I will check that as this will be a good one.
Thanks for the information.
Henry
#4
Posted 20 February 2009 - 07:00
Dorothy Levitt was clearly a remarkable woman who later drove for Selwyn Edge and the Napier Car Company in races and record attempts they said the first woman racing driver , but according to the programme she mysteriously disappeared from high public profile around 1910.
#5
Posted 20 February 2009 - 08:21
She was not a remarkable woman. She was an uncoeth, ill mannered douche bag. This is what she once said when stopped for, "driving at a great pace". "I would like to drive over every policeman and wished I had run over the sergeant and killed him"Originally posted by RTH
Dorothy Levitt was clearly a remarkable woman who later drove for Selwyn Edge and the Napier Car Company in races and record attempts they said the first woman racing driver , but according to the programme she mysteriously disappeared from high public profile around 1910.
Hardly my idea of a remarkable woman.
#6
Posted 20 February 2009 - 10:44
On the contrary - in her time she was indeed a remarkable woman. Engaged initially as what would be today be called a temp in the offices of Napiers, she quickly rose to become SF Edge's personal assistant and - it seems likely - also his mistress.Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
She was not a remarkable woman. She was an uncoeth, ill mannered douche bag. This is what she once said when stopped for, "driving at a great pace". "I would like to drive over every policeman and wished I had run over the sergeant and killed him"
Hardly my idea of a remarkable woman.
As to your quote, it has to be seen in the context of the time: there was great animosity between motorists on one side and the police and magistrates who - then as now - saw the motor car as a handy form of extra income. Car drivers were viewed in pretty much the same light as anarchists and there was - to be fair - much bad behaviour reported about them: read the memoirs of Jarrott and Edge for example!
That quote is actually from a court report which I posted here some time ago: note that this was reported speech, not personal testimony in court. Also the magistrate's opinion, which seems somewhat milder than yours - and he was actually there. Incidentally "terrific pace" is a euphemism for anything over the speed limit, which was then a maximum of 14 mph (usually 12mph) and probably less in a Royal Park.
http://forums.autosp...539#post2936539Originally posted by Vitesse2
On Nov 6th 1903 she was among a number of motorists summonsed at Marlborough St for speeding in Hyde Park. Although she did not appear in court personally, she was said to have driven at a "terrific pace" and, when stopped, apparently "said she would like to drive over every policeman and wished she had run over the sergeant and killed him."
The magistrate, Mr Denman, dismissed this as "a silly bit of swagger" and proceeded to fine her £3 with 2s costs. Swagger it may have been, but the other six defendants were only fined £2 plus costs!
As to being uncouth - in "Napier - First to Wear the Green" David Venables records that she arrived at the prize-giving for the 1907 Herkomer in a fashionable ball gown "much to the delight of the assembly" - her beaten rival for best woman driver, Frau Lehmann (wife of the Director-General of Metallurgique) was thoroughly upstaged, having arrived still in her driving gear. Dorothy came 13th overall, better than many of the men.
#7
Posted 20 February 2009 - 11:20
As for the times - yes, for a number of years the horse industry and its followers, under intense threat from the horseless carriages, maintained a quite extraordinary campaign of persecution of horseless carriage drivers. And magistrates of the time, usually of the landed gentry and huntin', shootin' and fishin' horsepersons to a man (or person), strongly supported the persecution. In a few years, the magistrates and landed gentry were all travelling by motor car, and the persecution gradually wound down.
Back in 1905, by the way, a halfway decent motor car cost up to 100,000 pounds in todays money, and was unusable without a full-time chauffeur/mechanic to keep the thing running. If you ever sit behind the wheel (or tiller) of a London-Brighton runner you will discover several alarming things. None of the pedals and levers do what you expect. There are no brakes (well, there are brakes, but less effective than the sole of your shoe on the back wheel of your bike). The engine is effectively fixed speed. The engine lube is by drip feed and on steep hills oil doesn't get anywhere near the highest bearings and the engine siezes up. Fuel feed is by gravity. Road Books of the period have amazing detail about the steepness of ascent and descent of various roads, as (a) you can't stop downhill and (b) you wreck the engine uphill. Any trip over 10 miles would be accompanied by at least one puncture, road were unsurfaced, and getting bogged was commonplace.
Why on earth did they do it?
It was an adventure. It was fun.
#8
Posted 20 February 2009 - 11:57
Originally posted by Terry Walker
The documentary sounds great - I hope it makes it to Australia eventually.
As for the times - yes, for a number of years the horse industry and its followers, under intense threat from the horseless carriages, maintained a quite extraordinary campaign of persecution of horseless carriage drivers. And magistrates of the time, usually of the landed gentry and huntin', shootin' and fishin' horsepersons to a man (or person), strongly supported the persecution. In a few years, the magistrates and landed gentry were all travelling by motor car, and the persecution gradually wound down.
Back in 1905, by the way, a halfway decent motor car cost up to 100,000 pounds in todays money, and was unusable without a full-time chauffeur/mechanic to keep the thing running. If you ever sit behind the wheel (or tiller) of a London-Brighton runner you will discover several alarming things. None of the pedals and levers do what you expect. There are no brakes (well, there are brakes, but less effective than the sole of your shoe on the back wheel of your bike). The engine is effectively fixed speed. The engine lube is by drip feed and on steep hills oil doesn't get anywhere near the highest bearings and the engine siezes up. Fuel feed is by gravity. Road Books of the period have amazing detail about the steepness of ascent and descent of various roads, as (a) you can't stop downhill and (b) you wreck the engine uphill. Any trip over 10 miles would be accompanied by at least one puncture, road were unsurfaced, and getting bogged was commonplace.
Why on earth did they do it?
It was an adventure. It was fun.
Just watched it on iPlayer (I couldn't tear myself away from the cricket last night!) and found it - as RTH said - a surprisingly good programme. One or two minor quibbles, but mainly down to sloppy scriptwriting I think: although I do wish they hadn't tagged that excruciating (but inevitable ) Barbara Cartland BS on at the end - surely David Burgess-Wise could have stopped them doing that?
#9
Posted 20 February 2009 - 12:01
#10
Posted 20 February 2009 - 12:13
It was self evident from the programme she did stand out from the crowd, was a very strong forceful and determined woman who was very resourceful and physically and mentally capable, who no doubt had learned by experience that making strong statements sometimes gave her publicity and helped to make things happen for her,it may well have been carefully calculated. As we saw she gained a lot of press publicily and photographs of her exploits.
#11
Posted 20 February 2009 - 12:22
Different days, Michael. One point brought out in the programme was - as I pointed out before I'd seen it - the rivalry between motorists, the authorities, landowners, horseowners and the "huntin', shootin', fishin'" types. One landowner apparently approached a magistrate to ask if he could legitimately shoot passing motorists ..... perhaps Miss Levitt was merely reacting to that attitude, which was widespread at the time.Originally posted by fines
I have to say I sympathise with Rhodie here: swagger or not, to declare that you wished to have killed somebody is not my idea of a remarkable person, either. Also, being a mistress to a wealthy man is hardly a remarkable deed for a woman, nor is carrying a revolver for any human being.
And I did point out that the comment about running policemen over was "reported speech" - police officers' notebooks were not necessarily "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" .....
#12
Posted 20 February 2009 - 12:26
#13
Posted 20 February 2009 - 12:27
#14
Posted 20 February 2009 - 12:29
I think he was a remarkable orator. But that doesn't mean I admire his philosophy.Originally posted by fines
Adolf Hitler also stood out from the crowd, and it was different days. Was he remarkable?
#15
Posted 20 February 2009 - 12:37
#16
Posted 20 February 2009 - 12:56
#17
Posted 20 February 2009 - 14:23
#18
Posted 20 February 2009 - 14:23
#19
Posted 20 February 2009 - 14:54
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#20
Posted 20 February 2009 - 16:06
It's a pity that this remarkable figure hasn't been more fully researched.
#21
Posted 20 February 2009 - 16:49
#22
Posted 20 February 2009 - 17:31
Originally posted by David McKinney
It wasn't a drama, KJ, and Penelope Keith wasn't playing the part of Dorothy - she simply set out to re-enact the 1904 London-Liverpool drive in a similar car
Yes and she never said "Jerry!" once, I was most dissapointed. Not a bad little show though, my wife was entertained by it too.
#23
Posted 20 February 2009 - 17:33
Originally posted by David McKinney
It wasn't a drama, KJ, and Penelope Keith wasn't playing the part of Dorothy - she simply set out to re-enact the 1904 London-Liverpool drive in a similar car
Thanks for putting me straight on that one. I'll have to check it out on this iplayer contraption.
Any theories as to what happened to Ms Levitt? The phone directories have her living at flat 1n Portman Mansions, Paddington until 1913. I couldn't find her there in the 1911 census but seemingly thousands of women of a suffragist outlook refused to take part in that census, not sure if Dorothy was a feminist but it wouldn't be a surprise if she were.
#24
Posted 20 February 2009 - 20:50
Tony
#25
Posted 21 February 2009 - 11:45
Originally posted by KJJ
Thanks for putting me straight on that one. I'll have to check it out on this iplayer contraption.
Any theories as to what happened to Ms Levitt? The phone directories have her living at flat 1n Portman Mansions, Paddington until 1913. I couldn't find her there in the 1911 census but seemingly thousands of women of a suffragist outlook refused to take part in that census, not sure if Dorothy was a feminist but it wouldn't be a surprise if she were.
I've looked for her and she seems to vanish after writing her famous book. She may well have married at some point and changed her name, although she never married Selwyn-Edge. She may also have been living abroad at the time of that census, although I have no evidence to back this up.
It would be interesting to find out if she has descendents.
I'm going to watch this programme later. I'm a big Penelope Keith fan, anyway.
#26
Posted 21 February 2009 - 12:02
Originally posted by taylov
The original Miss Levitt in one of the 80HP Napiers at Brighton in 1905 (an original postcard from my collection). Was she remarkable? -well I'm damn sure I wouldn't have wanted to take that monster down Madeira Drive at over 85mph. Running the full kilometre course (in the opposite direction to the later Speed Trials) there wasn't a lot of room to stop.
Tony
Tony that is a wonderful postcard and these moments in history are enjoyable.
Do you have more and do the members have more that could be added to this former thread?
http://forums.autosp...light=postcards
Henry
#27
Posted 21 February 2009 - 12:15
Surely Dorothy Levitt must have continued to be paid royalties on her book after 1913, even if she didn't take part in the census or moved abroad?
Paul M
#28
Posted 21 February 2009 - 12:19
Originally posted by HistoricMustang
Tony that is a wonderful postcard and these moments in history are enjoyable.
Do you have more and do the members have more that could be added to this former thread?
http://forums.autosp...light=postcards
Henry
Henry, yes I do have more postcards. Rather a lot more. Starting at around 1901 and going up to the early 1960s. Here's one of my favourites from 1905 Brighton Motor Trials - Mr J.E. Hutton in his 120HP Mercedes (so says the card -I suspect it may be a 60HP model). If my failing memory is right, I believe that Miss Levitt beat this Mercedes.
I have about 20 more of 1905 Brighton alone. Tony
#29
Posted 21 February 2009 - 16:23
#30
Posted 21 February 2009 - 18:15
These early motorists were land owners; who I assume were also part of the hunting, fishing and shooting fraternity, they were not from the local Council Estate. Those who opposed motor cars are said to be from the ‘hunting, fishing and shooting fraternity’, basically the same class background, although probably from an older generation. The magistrates ( J.P’s ) would have also come from a similar background, so would have been passing judgment on their own social group. Could it be that the motorists that were caught; were actually driving in an inconsiderate manner and deserved to be punished!
#31
Posted 21 February 2009 - 18:40
#32
Posted 21 February 2009 - 18:54
Originally posted by LotusElise
I'm going to watch this programme later. I'm a big Penelope Keith fan, anyway.
I'm 6ft 2" and 16 stone, how does that compare?
#33
Posted 21 February 2009 - 21:05
#34
Posted 22 February 2009 - 02:47
The result was rather like the Monty Python sketch on class. The aristocracy looked down on the landed gentry (backward rural oafs) and the businessmen (who were in "trade", egad.) The landed gentry looked down on the aristocracy ("fast", and immoral) and the businessmen (who were in "trade", egad!).
If you were well heeled, adventurous, a bit forward looking, you might try the new fangled horseless carriage and become addicted. If you were well-heeled, unadventurous, and backward looking, you would do everything you could to stamp down on horseless carriages.
The advent of the auto was a very radical shift in society, and in a relatively short time the multi-million pound horse industry contracted dramatically. In the late 19th century road transport was entirely by horses; in the 2oth, by motor vehicle. Sherlock Holmes buzzed about in a Hansom Cab; a few years later cabs were motor vehicles. (As an aside, the last Hansom Cab plied in London until 1936, when the owner, by then an ancient geezer, donated it to a Museum.)
The persecution of the new motorist of time was real, and intentional. Recall the Red Flag act, which restricted motor vehicles to 4 mph with a man walking in front carrying red warning flag, but did not restrict horse-drawn carriages nor for that matter horseback riders to the same speed no require them to be preceded by a man with a red flag.
It was, as they say, "interesting times".
#35
Posted 22 February 2009 - 06:15
Also you refer to those that were 'well-heeled, unadventurous, and backward looking'. Whilst I cannot comment on the first (which I am not), but by having an interest in the past; I am sure that many TNFer's fit the other two, I certainly do! Had I been around over one hundred years ago; would I have embraced the new fangled motor car, or view it with the same contempt as I do the Wii games advertised on the telly in 2009. Somehow I think I would be boring friends stiff, telling them about three obscure horse events that happened in 1851 on a field near Diss.
#36
Posted 22 February 2009 - 08:07
Henry, yes I do have more postcards. I have about 20 more of 1905 Brighton alone. Tony
This is wonderful archive stuff, Tony. Please keep them coming
Roger Lund
#37
Posted 22 February 2009 - 08:58
Originally posted by Terry Walker
The result was rather like the Monty Python sketch on class.
The Frost Report
#38
Posted 22 February 2009 - 09:26
#39
Posted 22 February 2009 - 11:03
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#40
Posted 22 February 2009 - 11:05
Originally posted by ghinzani
I'm 6ft 2" and 16 stone, how does that compare?
You win, hands down. I am a very small woman.
Back to opposition to the motor car in the Edwardian period:
I agree with what Terry said about the upper classes - they were not one simple group. As with any group, in any period, there will always be those "early adopters" who embrace progress, and those who remain hostile to it until they are forced to accept it. Then there are those in the middle, who merely take time to come around to new ideas.
From my limited experience of the British upper classes, I get the impression now that some members of the "true" aristocracy always have been early adopters, mainly because they have the time and money to be so.
#41
Posted 22 February 2009 - 11:25
#42
Posted 22 February 2009 - 12:08
Unlikely as there's no tax income for them involved. Of course it might be just the forerunner of a punitive tax for NOT having the man with the regulatory red flag.Originally posted by Rath
The way government keep piling more and more restriction on road users makes you wonder how long it will be before we are returned to this !
#43
Posted 22 February 2009 - 12:25
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by taylov
Henry, yes I do have more postcards. I have about 20 more of 1905 Brighton alone. Tony
This is wonderful archive stuff, Tony. Please keep them coming
Roger Lund [/QUOTE]
I've stated posting them on the other thread suggested "Motor Racing Postcards" -
http://forums.autosp...?threadid=30198
Tony
#44
Posted 22 February 2009 - 14:02
Originally posted by HistoricMustang
Roger, this link can not be viewed outside the UK.
Here in the Confederate States of America (CSA) we only receive one BBC feed.
I will check that as this will be a good one.
Thanks for the information.
Henry
Apparently it's possible to view iPlayer if you fiddle with proxy settings on your computer to be routed via a British IP address.
I've never done it but it works I've read.
#45
Posted 22 February 2009 - 16:24
This was posted on a PC thread on the same subject:Originally posted by Pils1989
Apparently it's possible to view iPlayer if you fiddle with proxy settings on your computer to be routed via a British IP address.
I've never done it but it works I've read.
http://www.xroxy.com...-country-GB.htm
No idea if it works though.
#46
Posted 22 February 2009 - 17:36
#47
Posted 24 February 2009 - 20:51
Next week's offering on BBC4 is "Ford's Dagenham Dream" which had lots of archive clips from the golden era including Barry Lee and Anita Taylor, sounds interesting.
David
#48
Posted 24 February 2009 - 20:54
Originally posted by Vitesse2
This was posted on a PC thread on the same subject:
http://www.xroxy.com...-country-GB.htm
No idea if it works though.
I haven't bothered trying myself either.
There are the same kind of restrictions on French public channels websites too.
Bit sad for an expat but I understand why it is that way.
#49
Posted 08 January 2011 - 00:43
#50
Posted 12 January 2011 - 13:23
I posted some details in the Discussion area on the Wikipedia page about her.
Not found her in the 1911 census - someone wondered whether she could have been a Suffragette?
I also wondered whether she might have driven an ambulance in WWI with FANY or some similar organisation?
Her parents died around Brighton as did her sister and husband. There are a couple of births in Brighton in the 1920s which could be her sister's from the mother's maiden name so it is possible that there are descendants of her sister. There were four other siblings but all died before 1911, quite likely as infants.
MB
(The programme is repeated again tonight)
Edited by Lundavra, 12 January 2011 - 13:24.