27 replies to this topic

[cabianca]

Tom Whatcroft once owned a car that may have been the 1922 IOM TT winner with Jean Chassagne. It has since been sold to a John Hanson. Some sources say the chassis number is 2 and others say 3. I believe the engine is #2. Can anyone shed any light on this.

Phil Hill won a race in this car at the 1993 Monterey Historics.

Many thanks.

[David McKinney]

Can’t be sure about the number of the Chassagne TT winner, Michael, but I remember a lot of discussion on the question when the car was in New Zealand (1925-1990). It may have been resolved since. It was known in some quarters as IOM7 - was that its 1922 race-number, or the chassis number?
As I understand it, during the 1940s the then owner acquired from Anthony Heal (UK) a huge quantity of spares, ostensibly most of what remained of #4. This was the car allotted to K L Guinness for the 1922 TT but withdrawn before the race. When Tom Wheatcroft acquired the Chassagne car in NZ in 1990 he also got the cache of spares, which had passed to subsequent owners and which he now had built up as a complete car. I believe it was this re-creation of the Guinness car that Phil Hill raced at Monterey in 1993, not the Chassagne winner.

[fines]

Race number was 7, yes, so IOM7 looks to me like "Isle of Man #7". I can't add anything except that I have the car as chassis number 'TT-2', but I don't even recall the source - I was happy enough to have some info at all!

[cabianca]

David and Michael,
Yes the race # of the TT winner was 7. If the Hill car at Monterey was the replica, it is my understanding that that is chassis #4 with engine #5. I am assuming these numbers are from when the 7 cars were built in 1921 for the first big post-war GP. Am I correct that the 1922 TT was run to 1921 GP regulations, not sports cars.

Both cars have been sold by Wheatcroft. 2 to Hanson and 4 to Taylor. The Hill car at Monterey ran on race #5 BTW.

[cabianca]

David and Michael,
Yes the race # of the TT winner was 7. If the Hill car at Monterey was the replica, it is my understanding that that is chassis #4 with engine #5. I am assuming these numbers are from when the 7 cars were built in 1921 for the first big post-war GP. Am I correct that the 1922 TT was run to 1921 GP regulations, not sports cars.

Both cars have been sold by Wheatcroft. 2 to Hanson and 4 to Taylor. The Hill car at Monterey ran on race #5 BTW.

[GIGLEUX]

Yes you are correct.

[David McKinney]

One thing I've never been sure of (and I'm sure it's in all the appropriate books) is whether the 1922 TT cars were in fact 1921 GP cars

And to add to Jean-Maurice's post, the TT didn't become established as a sportscar race until its 1928 revival

[GIGLEUX]

Anthony S.Heal, in Sunbeam Racing Cars: "The Sunbeam Racing Department rebuilt four of the 1921 eight-cylinder cars with their weight reduced, and 30 gallons bolster tanks were fitted as on the 1914 TT cars. Two BHT magnetos replaced the Delco coil ignition system. Tests were made with four carburetters and with two, the latter arrangment being found to be the most satisfactory.".

[David McKinney]

Thanks J-M

[Alan Cox]

The Hanson-owned car (no.2) from last year's Cholmondeley Pageant of Power, when it was driven by Brian Redman.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by cabianca
If the Hill car at Monterey was the replica, it is my understanding that that is chassis #4 with engine #5

I carefully avoided tusing the word "replica" because I genuinely don't know how many original bits, and which ones, were used in its re-construction

[Dutchy]

Guy Shoesmith owned one for many years and I last heard of it in Julian Majzub's hands. Who's car was that in the TT?

[David McKinney]

I think the Shoosmith/Majzub car was one of the 1921 GP cars that wasn't rebuilt as a 1922 TT car
But I might be wrong

[Dutchy]

That makes sense as I recall it being referred to as such. having thought about it more

[oliver heal]

My father, Anthony Heal, who knew more about Sunbeam Racing cars than i have had hot dinners (if that is the expression) used to strenuously avoid getting into debates about who drove which car because he maintained that at this distance in time it was impossible to know. It seems that Sunbeams regularly dismantled the cars at the end of the season and there was no guarantee that the parts went back together in the same order. It sounds like the parts store was like one of those machines they have for mixing up the balls on the national lottery.

The best one can say about numbers stamped on surviving Sunbeam racing cars is that they are confusing!
However it is usually possible to retrace the provenance of an 'entity' so that most of the surviving cars Jenks would have classified as 'Genuine' or 'Authentic'. What is troubling about the car that spent most of its life in New Zealand and thus had a relatively simple and traceable heritage before being restored and brought back to the UK with no. 7 on radiator is the suggestion that its chassis was swapped for the one that was in the pile of spare parts that eventually became Wheatcroft's second car with no.4 painted on the radiator. (see Eoin Young writing in Motor Sport June 1993).

Can any of our friends in NZ cast any light on what really happened during that restoration?
osh

[David McKinney]

I’ve done a bit more digging into the cars in NZ

First, it seems the parts which would ultimately form the basis of the second car were not acquired from Anthony Heal in the 1940s, but from Sir Ralph Millais in 1959. There were several engine blocks, crankcases and shafts, and gearboxes, but I could find no specific mention of a chassis

In his book A Classic World the late George Begg gives a detailed account of the evolution of the two entities. Apparently work started on building up the second car in the 1960s, but was not completed until after Tom Wheatcroft's acquisition of the project.
Begg seems to tactfully avoid the question of the origin of the second chassis, but makes clear that Wheatcroft wanted the TT winning car (the one that had been in NZ since the 1920s) to be as authentic as possible. This would suggest the Chassagne car was built on its original chassis, and one could perhaps evoke Mandy Rice-Davies in relation to the suggestion that the real chassis is in the other car

[oliver heal]

It was Dick Messenger who had owned the car from 1929 until WWII (?) who came to England in 1959 and on behalf of the then owner, RB Shand, set about collecting all the spares he could to help with a rebuild. I believe by the end of it they had enough for two and a half cars. Anthony Heal did have the remains of an 8-cylinder engine and this was amongst the parts that went out to NZ. I still remain to be convinced about the source of the spare chassis however. At one point the story was put about that it came from Sir Francis Samuelson but I checked with his son who was categoric that they had never had one of the 8cyl chassis. Subsequently Sir Ralph Millais's name was suggested as the donor but although he owned the 4 litre V12 Sunbeam Tiger there has never been any inkling that he had other Sunbeam parts.

I would love to know which car that spare chassis came from! Someone must know the truth? But as there were originally ten of them the possibilities are quite extensive.

The identification of the car which now bears no. 7 on its rad as the ex-Chassagne car seems to rest on a story told by Dick Messenger about how he uncovered a number 7 on the bodywork as he removed layers of paint with spirit. However George Jackson who also raced one of these cars in the twenties referred to his as the ex-Chassagne car. It is not that I doubt Messenger's sincerity but I suspect Sunbeam of painting 7 on more than one car!!

[oliver heal]

To go back to Cabianca's original question about chasssis numbers i have just turned up an article in the STD Register Journal, Summer 2008, by "Deltic". He inspected both ex-Wheatcroft cars in researching the Burnand Special and gives the following details.
Car with 7 on radiator: chassis 3 engine 5
Car with 1 on radiator: chassis 4 engine 2

Hope this helps.

[David McKinney]

Yes - especially if it tells us which was which in 1922 ;)

[Bill Harding]

Cabianca says that "Wheatcroft sold 2 to Hanson and 4 to Taylor" but last time I was at Donington, a few days ago, "4" was still there..........

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by oliver heal
To go back to Cabianca's original question about chasssis numbers i have just turned up an article in the STD Register Journal, Summer 2008, by "Deltic". He inspected both ex-Wheatcroft cars in researching the Burnand Special and gives the following details.
Car with 7 on radiator: chassis 3 engine 5
Car with 1 on radiator: chassis 4 engine 2

Hope this helps.

What's the Burnand Special?

[oliver heal]

JW Burnand lived in Sheffield and acquired the ex-George Jackson sand racing Sunbeam after the engine had been blown up ca 1940. This was one of the 8 cyl 3 litre 1921 Sunbeam GP cars. Burnand inserted a 14.2 litre Rolls Royce Falcon engine - a picture was published in Motor Sport in 1943 (I think?). Burnand died in 1951 but it is not known if the car was scrapped before or after he died. In view of the timing in WWII it seems unlikely it ever ran. WB thought he had tracked it down on the South Coast in the 1950s but was never allowed to see it and eventually the trail went cold.

Shame really. It would have been surely quite spectacular! Apparently Falcons produced 275hp at 2000rpm.

[sai]

i have been looking into the story of the two TT sunbeams for a while now.
what i have read above reflects my findings.
i know of four straight eight Sunbeams:

driven in the Indy 500 1921 by Haibe to fifth place now in their museum
driven in Isle of Man TT 1922 by Segrave in the Majzub collection
so called no 1 chassis 4 engine 2
so called no 7 chassis 3 engine 5

certainly no 7 seem to have many original components on it.
there are two big questions:
which chassis and which engine were on the Chassagne car in 1922?
which chassis and which engine were on the car imported in 1925 to New Zealand, a car which had continuos history until 1992?
if we know the answers to these questions we will be able to settle this once and for all.
anyone know?

[jessicle]

Hi, on behalf of a friend of a friend, we are searching for the orignal registration documents for the Messenger/Shand/Wheatcroft car? Any ideas on finding them? Thanks!

[ishabar]

I can probably answer many of your questions regarding the Sunbeams as I was one of the people involved in the restorations in New Zealand.
Rob Shand had built up one car which although the engine ran the car was not restored and there was not another car built up either.
Auto Restorations received this car and a whole lot of parts with instructions to restore the Chassagne/Wills car and build another with the remaining parts.
We could not find any records of chassis numbers for the Chassagne/ Wills chassis so had to try and work out which of the two chassis was correct. We stripped all parts down for crack testing etc. We had the original body panels which were found under Messengers house so fitted these on each chassis.
They fitted perfectly on the no 3 chassis with all mounting holes lining up, but not so well on no 4 chassis. From this we decided to use the 3 chassis as the original car. There was also no record of which engine no was used in the original car either.
This car was rebuilt using all the original Sunbeam parts and the other chassis was built up with existing parts if we had them or new parts made.
So the cars were numbered as follows;
No 7 car -chassis 3 engine 5 this was the original Chassagne/ Wills car.
No 1 car- chassis 4 engine 2.
From my recolections we restored the no 7 car first and used the best parts on this car including the engine which was probably the best of the lot but I'm not sure on this as I was involved more on the chassis and body side.
The car that ran at Laguna Seca in 1993 driven by Phil Hill I think might have been the no1 car but am not sure as the no 7 car went to South Africa for Tom to use and suffered damage both by fire and also the airline in loading it, plus there was some remedial work to be dont to the engine. The no 7 car definately ran at Laguna Seca and Pebble Beach in 2005.
Unfortuately any unregistered cars in NZ were removed from the records in 1995 so I have not been able to trace any registration.
The original Wills car had about three different bodies on it while in NZ but I never saw any evidence of them amongst the parts we had.
I hope this answers some of your queries. Alan Stanton.

[oliver heal]

Wonderful to hear from the man himself. Thank you very much for the information.
Messenger's original body can only have come off the Wills' car when he acquired it and this is the car that Shand bought and for which he started to build up a great stock of spares. As far as I know ( and you are closer to things than me) there has never been any suggestion that Shand would have used the spare chassis for his car. It was just that - a spare chassis with enough parts to build up a second car. So logically you must have refitted the original body (or some of it) onto the original chassis. I cannot think of any explanation that would mean the body fitted the other chassis. Or am I missing something?
best wishes Oliver Heal.

[Bill Harding]

Car no; 1 /Chassis 4 was the car driven by Phil Hill at Laguna Seca and shown at Pebble Beach in 1993.
It is the car still owned by Tom Wheatcroft, on show at Donington.

[ishabar]

I have talked to a few other people and yes we think it was the no 1 car that raced at Laguna Seca in the hands of Phil Hill in 1993.
I do not know what Rob Shand received when he bought the car, it aparently had a different body than the one Messenger built on it. What Rob Shand did with all the parts I am not sure, apart from having one engine rebuilt. There was only ever one car built up plus all the spares he had collected from England.
The thing I could not work out was the fact the original body panels fitted the no 3 chassis perfectly, but were assembled up on the no 4 chassis, this could have been because one chassis was in Christchurch having the body repaired and the other possibly with Middlemiss or Ian Jones having the mechanicals fitted. Both chassis were exactly the same in construction and we had to decide which to use as we had no information of original numbers.
Unfortunately most of the people involved are no longer with us.
We built the no 7 car as the original Wills vehicle with original Sunbeam parts, whearas the no 1 car had a lot of made up parts where originals were missing.
Hope this helps.