140 replies to this topic

[rolf123]

What's the point of it? It's a bit like the seamless shift or Berrylium. Something not needed that originally granted a small edge to whoever got it first.

And the motor industry hasn't exactly fallen in love with it, perhaps 1% of all cars use it?

Isn't it time we banned the semi-auto gearbox? I don't advocate bringing the clutch back for every gear change but why not mandate a stick shift?

Trying to brake in a straight line with only one hand is a little harder so it will bring some skill back too.

I say ban it!!

Just like the safety car, the semi-auto has infected the rest of world motorsports


I mean how can anyone watch any Senna onboard (like this one ) and not say the stick shift rocks?!!?

[Jambo]

to be honest F1 for me has always been about the cars and F1 should have the highest technology in racing.

[Ross Stonefeld]

A paddle shifter isn't the highest technology, surely.

At any rate, it doesn't matter. Any professional racing driver can operate any gearbox, it's not going to change anything even if we go back to H-patterns and double clutch downshifts.

[Jambo]

Thats a fair point Ross, I suppose CVT is the ideal one but that was banned back in 93(?). As you say though all these drivers grew up shifting gears properly it wouldn't make much difference.

I do think it is safer with paddle shifters though as it allows both hands on wheel through corners at all times.

[Seanspeed]

Assuming you simply mean 'paddle shift' gearboxes, then actually, yes, the motor industry has fallen in love with it. Everything from supercars to SUVs and vans can be found with paddle shifters in various forms.

The dual-clutch, paddle-shift gearboxes are the new thing in performance cars. BMW just came out with one for their M3, Mitsubishi just made one for the new Evo X, Porsche have one coming for their 911, Nissan has one for the GTR, Ferrari have one for their California, and Ford, GM, Hyundai and others are working on ones.

[Blythy]

It would bring back mistakes such as missed gears and there would be an aspect of taking care of things, especially if a clutch was involved.

Plus it would have an effect, Brundle says his hand used to bleed after racing at monaco.

[MichaelPM]

They should force a driver to complete a whole sudoku puzzle between each gear change!

[KWSN - DSM]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
A paddle shifter isn't the highest technology, surely.

At any rate, it doesn't matter. Any professional racing driver can operate any gearbox, it's not going to change anything even if we go back to H-patterns and double clutch downshifts.

I think it will.

Not a lot not often but over the course of a season, one driver will miss a shift or at least flub it enugh to mean something, just as in the old days.

Which is one of the reasons I want it back, and I do want the whole H-pattern and double clutch downshifts.

[Meanstreak]

As nice as the old onboards are, it is utopistic idea. Electronics have ruined and will ruin more the spectacle of motorsport. In technology driven series like F1 it would be a question of prestige too (to maintain high technology image). I see one aspect of racing that computer controlled gear shifts have actually improved... certainly the amount of gearbox failures has been reduced over the years (or decades) and a DNF'ed car is not great racing.

[MikeTekRacing]

what should we ban next? fuel injection so that you can see a driver stalling and (I don't know how to say it in English) not be able to restart it because of the carburator?
sorry but this is a little bit of a non sense..we will end up requiring a ban on brake vents so that he should take care of the brakes, a ban on buttons un the steering wheel, heck even a ban on alloy wheels like in the good ol days

[Lazy Prodigy]

Originally posted by Jambo
to be honest F1 for me has always been about the cars and F1 should have the highest technology in racing.

I agree. I would find it cool if they used plutonium in something.;)

[alfista]

We may not love gadgets in the cars but IMHO semi-auto 'box is a very useful device. Yes, it decreases the driver input. You can't force your opponent to miss a gear with semi-auto.
Then it makes almost impossible to overrev the engine. In an era when everybody is talking about cost cutting this is one very effective way to save both engines and drivetrain and money, what's most important. I can't imagine long-life gearboxes with manual shifting and/or clutch operated by driver.

[Ivan]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
A paddle shifter isn't the highest technology, surely.

At any rate, it doesn't matter. Any professional racing driver can operate any gearbox, it's not going to change anything even if we go back to H-patterns and double clutch downshifts.

I agree with a pinch of salt here. We think the point is there is more chance for error if you have to take your hand off the wheel to shift while in the heat of a battle.

[KWSN - DSM]

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing
what should we ban next? fuel injection so that you can see a driver stalling and (I don't know how to say it in English) not be able to restart it because of the carburator?
sorry but this is a little bit of a non sense..we will end up requiring a ban on brake vents so that he should take care of the brakes, a ban on buttons un the steering wheel, heck even a ban on alloy wheels like in the good ol days

Yes.

Ban car o pit and pit to car telemetry.

Ban carbon brakes.

Ban anything which can change the settings on a car by the driver during a race.

Ban refuelling.

[MichaelPM]

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM
Ban car o pit and pit to car telemetry.

[alfista]

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM


Yes.

Ban car o pit and pit to car telemetry.

Ban carbon brakes.

Ban anything which can change the settings on a car by the driver during a race.

Ban refuelling.

You're talking about NASCAR?

[KWSN - DSM]

Originally posted by alfista


You're talking about NASCAR?

Nope.

[Crazy Canuck]

yes, long live the H-pattern!

CC

[rolf123]

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing
what should we ban next? fuel injection so that you can see a driver stalling and (I don't know how to say it in English) not be able to restart it because of the carburator?
sorry but this is a little bit of a non sense..we will end up requiring a ban on brake vents so that he should take care of the brakes, a ban on buttons un the steering wheel, heck even a ban on alloy wheels like in the good ol days

Absolutely! Restrict the buttons on the wheel to 4. What do they need all the other ones for anyway? It's ridiculous how an F1 steering wheel looks these days. None of those silly switches contributes to the spectacle of racing at all!

I would also mandate a sitting up position. The reclining position is just daft. All we can see now are the drivers head and his hands.

In the old days you could see the arms at work from outside the car.

[MikeTekRacing]

imho cars should look like this
why do we need this technology on them?
probably in the 80's people were demanding a ban on slick tyres and a return to normal "street tyres" and so on

[Mauseri]

Is fine as it is. I wouldnt bind the other hand and leg of a boxer either. They can do it much better with two. F1 is not paralympics

[Tenmantaylor]

As long as they are doing their own upshifts and downshifts im happy. Levers? Puhlease this aint NASCAR.

[Slyder]

Originally posted by rolf123


Absolutely! Restrict the buttons on the wheel to 4. What do they need all the other ones for anyway? It's ridiculous how an F1 steering wheel looks these days. None of those silly switches contributes to the spectacle of racing at all!

I would also mandate a sitting up position. The reclining position is just daft. All we can see now are the drivers head and his hands.

In the old days you could see the arms at work from outside the car.

Some people tend forget what F1 is about...

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally posted by Slyder



Some people tend forget what F1 is about...

Well if you reduced the length of the car then the teams would be forced to put the drivers upright?

They are already putting the drivers in an non-COG-optimal high-up, even if reclined, position for the all-efficient aero Whilst the engine (and gearbox too - impinging into the diffuser - on the RBR) sits on the floor...

To cut aero efficiency why not ban the high nose and shorten the length of the car so the aero doesn't work very well.

[Chubby_Deuce]

Isn't a reclined driving position safer in a crash?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Slyder



Some people tend forget what F1 is about...

Hype?

[HoldenRT]

This topic reminds me of a nursing home.

Got any WWII or Vietnam stories you can share?

[Powersteer]

I would love to see the double clutch system on these cars. More car control and less interference.

[Burai]

Originally posted by Slyder
Some people tend forget what F1 is about...

What F1 is about varies depending on when you got into it.

[taran]

Originally posted by Burai


What F1 is about varies depending on when you got into it.

Nicely put.

I think technology belongs to F1 but it should be linked to usefulness for normal motoring. Paddle shifts have indeed reached passenger cars and therefore have a genuine place IMO.
However, the ability to fine tune the car for every bend by way of special diffs and god knows what seems to have little bearing on normal motoring and is unlikely to ever become a part of road cars, simply because the average driver lacks the skill to handle a steering wheel with a dozen knobs, buttons and displays.
The ability to set up a car to do well over a single lap/entire race distance without trick electronics seems to be a more useful skill which can also be leveraged into the car industry. Perhaps the FIA should mandate a car's setup may only be "changed" during a pit stop.

This would leave more brain power available to the driver, leading to less mistakes and less differential between them. But on the other hand, the ability to set up a car for an entire race would sort out the men from the boys and would offer considerable speed differential during the race, leading to overtaking.....

[MikeTekRacing]

Originally posted by Burai


What F1 is about varies depending on when you got into it.

this is true for absolutely anything in our life..even for our lives as a whole.
everything changes through the years it's just the normal way. We evolve, invent different things and have different needs.
if you want drivers in a normal position or to see their hands you pretty well might want to see them half dead. a lot of the stuff around them is not there for you not to see them but for their safety.

if some of you guys think that using 20 buttons and changing setup DURING a lap (from a turn to turn basis) is easy, think again. this doesn't make life easier, it makes it harder because you can have that extra 1% of performance that you have the means to look for. pushing a lot of buttons, turning knobs, talking on the radio and still driving the wheels out of that car is very impressive. look at the latest interview with timo glock and you will know what i mean.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM
Ban car o pit and pit to car telemetry.

Pit to car telemetry is already banned, and has been for a number of seasons.

[mmmcurry]

Originally posted by rolf123

I would also mandate a sitting up position. The reclining position is just daft. All we can see now are the drivers head and his hands.

In the old days you could see the arms at work from outside the car.

Think thats more due to the safety rules demanding high cockpit sides. They don't want the helmet going too far to the side in a crash, though I could be wrong.

Steve.

[Slartibartfast]

High cockpit sides are mandated in the rules to protect the drivers from objects (eg parts of other cars) striking them. IIRC it's part of the legacy of Senna's crash.
The HANS device the drivers wear is to prevent excessive head movement in the event of a high-g impact.

Ban anything which can change the settings on a car by the driver during a race.

Well, that will save money I suppose, no steering wheel, brake or accelerator pedals...

Got any WWII or Vietnam stories you can share?

We'd been out three days and were deep behind Charlie's lines when the first wave of Tifosi attacked in their 412s...

[Slyder]

Originally posted by Slartibartfast
High cockpit sides are mandated in the rules to protect the drivers from objects (eg parts of other cars) striking them. IIRC it's part of the legacy of Senna's crash.
The HANS device the drivers wear is to prevent excessive head movement in the event of a high-g impact.

Not only Senna's crash, but also due to Karl Wendlinger's crash at Monaco as well as Mika Hakkinen's crash in Adelaide a year later.

[Rob]

Originally posted by Slartibartfast
Well, that will save money I suppose, no steering wheel, brake or accelerator pedals...

My point of view is that the driver should have control over the steering, brakes, throttle and gears and no more than that.

[Rob]

Originally posted by Slyder


Not only Senna's crash, but also due to Karl Wendlinger's crash at Monaco as well as Mika Hakkinen's crash in Adelaide a year later.

Sauber started running with high cockpit sides immediately after Wendlinger's crash. I think Hakkinen's crash was, however, the straw that broke the camel's back.

[Pingguest]

Yes, I agree. Semi-automatic gearboxes should be banned. But I'd go even further: all driver aids should be banned:

- semi-automatic gearbox
- drive-by-wire
- electronic, active differential
- tyre warmers
- telemetry

Further:

- no enforced minimum life span of components
- no standardization of components
- a ban on mid-race refuelling
- abolition of post-qualifying parc fermé
- a 60 minutes qualifying session without limitations to laps, engines, tyres and fuel
- the pre-2003 point scoring system
- a reduction of downforce by eliminating the diffuser

[Slyder]

Lets ban wings and slick tires and put radial tires in place as well.

[Hippo]

Originally posted by Slyder
Lets ban wings and slick tires and put radial tires in place as well.

Indeed, let's use the cars from 1950 again!

[FPV GTHO]

Theres Formula Ford and historic racing out there for some of the ideas being discussed.

[taran]

I actually think banning front wings would be a good idea. In the 70s and 80s there were cars without front wings and they didn't have sponsors complaining (the reason given these days to keep these things).

It should allow for closer racing. Perhaps 'standard' ground effect like the the CART chassis had too.

[rolf123]

Ground effects should definitely be brought back. I see absolutely no argument against them.

The previous concerns could easily be addressed in the present day.

[alfista]

Originally posted by Hippo


Indeed, let's use the cars from 1950 again!

Great idea, let's fit drum brakes to modern F1 cars! With 13" wheels it means brakes are like those on rear wheels of old Ladas. Which means braking distances will be at least doubled if not tripled. That adds overtaking opportunities which makes races more attractive which we all like very much.
Concerning buttons on steering wheel I can assure you there mass-produced cars with about dozen of buttons and switches there. They are of course not for adjusting brakes or engine or diff but some of them are as uncomfortable to use as in F1. Try to switch trip computer display on Mazda 6 for instance.

http://www.mazda.ee/...cb0560119039d98

[Rob]

Originally posted by Slyder
Lets ban wings and slick tires and put radial tires in place as well.

Radials? Pah! Cross-ply is the way we should be going

[F1Fanatic.co.uk]

You can get hatchbacks with semi-automatic gearboxes these days. I don't F1 being dumbed down until it becomes another NASCAR.

[rolf123]

btw how is the location of the gear selector an advance? It is no more than a convenience, like a cup holder in a fat American man's car.

You can still have seamless shift etc if you have a gearstick.

btw I still reject that hand selected semi-auto has taken off. It is in no more than 5% of all modern cars.

You can move the stick and technology has not changed, only the location.

[Pingguest]

Originally posted by rolf123
Ground effects should definitely be brought back. I see absolutely no argument against them.

The previous concerns could easily be addressed in the present day.

Ground effects will enable teams to have more downforce with a lower drag penalty, hence resulting in both higher cornering and straigth line speeds. It might also make cars to airborne more often.

An introduction of ground effects is believed by many as the solution for the lack of close racing. Ironically though the OWG found out that underbody aerodynamics are even more sensitive for turbulence than wings.

[wide-front-wing]

Originally posted by rolf123
btw how is the location of the gear selector an advance? It is no more than a convenience, like a cup holder in a fat American man's car.

You can still have seamless shift etc if you have a gearstick.

btw I still reject that hand selected semi-auto has taken off. It is in no more than 5% of all modern cars.

You can move the stick and technology has not changed, only the location.

I don't get what the issue is - a lever next to the wheel instead of on it? Being able to shift with two hands on the wheel is very formula one...

Same thing with tire warmers, what is the big deal? F1 is traditionally not as restricted a racing formula as others, and if someone can come up with a way to gain an advantage, like keeping the tires warm so that an out lap is faster then the others, what is wrong with that?

The fact that the other teams see it happening and all follow suit, so what?

[stevewf1]

Originally posted by HoldenRT
This topic reminds me of a nursing home.

Got any WWII or Vietnam stories you can share?

Then let's go with 100% programmed cars. Everything. With F1, it's surely possible... Automatic gearbox, programmed brakes, steering, throttle, "accident avoidance" systems... Wouldn't even need a driver in the car at all...