53 replies to this topic

[Peter Leversedge]

Chrysler engines...........

[Ron B.]

heres something I borrowed from the Chysler Group site to show how much use the chrysler Hemi engine got in racing of various sorts.
A journey through a remarkable engine's remarkable history ...

1939 Chrysler begins design work on first HEMI®, a V-16 for fighter aircraft.
1951 Chrysler stuns automotive world with 180 hp HEMI® V-8 engine.
1951 Chrysler New Yorker convertible paces Indianapolis 500 race.
1951 Saratoga first in Stock Car Class; second overall in Carrera Pan-Americana road race.
1951 Briggs Cunningham chooses HEMI® engines for his Le Mans race cars.
1952 A special HEMI® is tested in a Kurtis Kraft Indy roadster; it's banned by racing officials as too fast.
1953 Lee Petty's HEMI® Dodge wins five NASCAR races and finishes second in championship points.
1953 Cunningham's C-4R HEMI® wins 12 Hours of Sebring and finishes third at Le Mans.
1953 A Dodge HEMI® V-8 breaks 196 stock car records at Bonneville Salt Flats.
1954 A Chrysler HEMI® with 4-barrel and dual exhausts makes 235 hp.
1954 Lee Petty wins Daytona Beach race in a Chrysler HEMI.
1954 Lee Petty wins NASCAR Grand National championship driving Chrysler and Dodge HEMI®s.
1954 Cunningham HEMI®s win Sebring again, third and fifth at Le Mans.
1954 Dodge Red Ram HEMI® convertible paces Indy 500.
1955 Chrysler introduces the legendary 300 as America's most powerful stock car
1955 Chrysler "300" with dual 4-barrel 331 c.i.d. HEMI® is first production car to make 300 hp.
1955 A Carl Keikhaefer-prepared Chrysler 300 wins at Daytona Beach with Tim Flock driving.
1955 Chrysler bumps HEMI® to 250 hp in New Yorker and 280 hp in Imperial.
1955 Frank Mundy wins AAA Championship in Kiekhaefer-prepared Chrysler 300.
1956 DeSoto Fireflite HEMI® convertible paces Indianapolis 500.
1956 Chrysler 300-B HEMI® increased to 354 c.i.d. and 340 hp with dual 4-barrels.
1956 Buck Baker wins NASCAR Grand National Championship in Chrysler 300-B with 14 wins.
1956 Chrysler 300-B sets World Passenger Car speed record at Daytona Beach - 133.9 mph.
1956 Don "Big Daddy" Garlits begins 46-year winning association with Chrysler HEMI®s.
1957 Chrysler 300-C HEMI® increased to 392 c.i.d. and 375 hp.
1958 Last year of HEMI® engine in Chrysler 300 models.
1958 Don "Big Daddy" Garlits breaks the 170 mph barrier in his "Swamp Rat" HEMI® dragster.
1958 Chrysler 300-D HEMI® sets a Class E speed record at Bonneville at 156.387 mph.
1959 Original Ramchargers debut "High & Mighty" HEMI®-powered C/A (altered class) '49 Plymouth to win NHRA Nationals.
1964 A.J. Foyt wins Firecracker 400 at Daytona; Plymouths or Dodges lead every lap.
1964 Chrysler introduces the 426 c.i.d. race HEMI® into competition.
1964 Richard Petty debuts the 426 HEMI® and laps the field while winning the Daytona 500.
1964 Three HEMI® -powered Plymouths and a HEMI® Dodge sweep Daytona 1-2-3.
1964 HEMI®-powered stock cars win 26 of the 62 NASCAR Grand National races.
1964 Richard Petty captures his first of seven driving championships with eight wins, 37 top-five finishes.
1964 Don Garlits breaks 200 mph quarter mile barrier in HEMI® dragster - 201.34 mph in 7.78 sec.
1964 Jim Thornton wins 1964 U.S. Nationals in Ramcharger's "Candymatic" 426 HEMI® Dodge.
1964 Jim Paschal wins NASCAR World 600 at Charlotte Motor Speedway in HEMI®-powered Plymouth.
1965 NASCAR outlaws HEMI® by setting minimum production levels for street use.
1965 Bob Summers sets present 409.227 mph Land Speed Record in "Goldenrod" using 4 HEMI®s in tandem.
1965 Shirley Shahan becomes first female to win major NHRA event driving a HEMI® Plymouth.
1966 Chrysler builds the "Street HEMI®" and returns to NASCAR racing.
1966 Richard Petty again wins Daytona 500 in his HEMI® Plymouth Belvedere.
1966 HEMI® Dodge Charger wins the NASCAR Championship, Plymouth is second.
1966 Norm Nelson wins USAC stock car championship with seven wins in a HEMI® Plymouth.
1967 Richard Petty wins an incredible 27 Grand National races in HEMI® Plymouth; 10 in a row.
1967 Richard Petty wins his second NASCAR championship in his HEMI® Plymouth.
1967 Don White's Charger gives HEMI ® cars second USAC championship in a row.
1968 Sox and Martin win three major AHRA events; Ronnie Sox named AHRA Driver of the Year.
1968 Dodge and Plymouth produce a limited number of 426 HEMI® Super Stock Darts and Barracudas.
1968 Road Runner, first budget muscle car, is introduced by Plymouth; available with 426 HEMI® option.
1969 Dodge introduces Charger 500 HEMI®, which wins 22 NASCAR races.
1969 The "winged" 1969 Dodge Charger Daytona with HEMI® power reigns over NASCAR superspeedways.
1970 Buddy Baker is the first to break 200 mph on a closed course in a HEMI® Dodge Charger Daytona stock car.
1970 Bobby Isaac sets a closed course speed record - 201.104 mph - in a Dodge Charger Daytona after winning the NASCAR championship.
1970 Sox and Martin HEMI® Plymouths win 17 major championships and are runners-up in all other major events.
1971 Bobby Isaac breaks 28 records at Bonneville in a Dodge Charger Daytona; top speed is 217.368 mph.
1971 Richard Petty wins his 3rd NASCAR Grand National championship in a HEMI® Road Runner.
1971 Don Garlits introduces HEMI-powered rear engine dragster at NHRA Winter Nationals.
1971 Sox and Martin win six of eight NHRA events; they represent drag racing at a presidential reception.
1991 Al Teague sets 409.986 mph wheel-driven Land Speed Record in the Supercharged class with single HEMI®.
Ad infinitum...

[David McKinney]

As this is a break-off from the thread on New Zealand Corvette-powered cars, I could start with the following:

The Chrysler 70 unit was seen in several cars in NZ beach-racing in the 1920s (both Islands) and I think there was at least one Imperial 80

Later engines from the Corporation went into many cars, eg Fred Zambucka's DeSoto Special, Clarrie Irvin's Dodge Special and Ted Reid's Plymouth special (ex-Western Springs)

Still more recent models didn't see much use outside long-distance production racing with six-cylinder and V8 Valiants, until the Chargers, E38 and especially E49, cleaned up shorter Gp1 events for several seasons. I seem to remember there was an "allcomer" saloon with a Valiant engine but can't recall what it was

Outside NZ, a Chrysler 70 was the car to beat in Western Australia in the 1920s, but I'll leave it to others to raise other Australian cars from later periods

In the UK, Martin Brain fitted a 7.2-litre Chrysler V8 engine into an ex-F1 Cooper 81B and it was hillclimbed for several seasons in the late 1960s/early '70s

[Ron B.]

The beginning.



AJ Foyts Hussein Hemi powered Sports car. named in honour of King Hussein



The Hussein is based on a strengthened Cooper Monaco chassis and it sports a 7 liter 426 cu in Dodge powerplant. The engine was worked over by Traco and develops about 525 Horsepower. The Hussein was probably the most powerful sportsracer of it's day with a top speed of over 200mph, but the car was reportedly quite a handful in the turns even for "Super Tex".

At Nassau Foyt finished second overall in the 25- lap Governor's Trophy, seven seconds behind Roger Penske's Chaparral 2, beating teammate Walt Hansgen in the rear engined Scarab and Rodriguez's NART Ferrari 330P.
Courtesy of Mick Danger.

[Ron B.]

1928 Lemans Car.replica.



and the real deal.

[fines]

Originally posted by Ron B.
1952 A special HEMI® is tested in a Kurtis Kraft Indy roadster; it's banned by racing officials as too fast.

There's nothing like a good PR saga, based on myth, is there?

Facts: Chrysler tested an oversize engine in a Kurtis roadster, while simultaneously lobbying AAA to allow extra capacity for stock-block engines. Not surprisingly, the proposal was rejected when it turned out that racing equipment worth several hundreds of thousands of dollars would be obsolescent overnight. The engines Chrysler built according to the rules went too slow to qualify.

[Ray Bell]

Side-valve sixes were the meat of the Chrysler lineage until the early fifties... so I'd like to add a brief overview of their progress:

The ZSB engines came in a few sizes. I think they were basically in two overall sizes, with a range of capacities just as the later sixes were.

'ZSB' stands for Fred Zeder, Owen Skelton and Carl Breer... three engineers Walter Chrysler poached from Studebaker when he was with Willys. He took them with him to Maxwell when he was called in to oversee the restructuring of that company and they designed the 6-cylinder 7-main bearing fully pressurised engine while there. That was to become the core of Chrysler cars from their inception in 1925 to some time in the early thirties, possibly 1932.

Then they went over to a simpler pair of engines (in the sixes, there were straight eights from about 1929), these having four main bearings. They were redesigned in either their second or third year and remained in production until the late sixties. The shorter of the two, with a head length of about 23½", started out at 201 cubic inches IIRC, with eventual growth to 230ci in the early fifties. The larger engine, about 1½" longer, came in a range of sizes not so dissimilar to the short engine, but was able to be gouged out to 265 cubic inches in the long run. This engine was the only engine built at the Canadian plant, chosen because it could economically cover the whole range of sizes required by fitting different crankshafts.

Both of these engines saw a very wide range of uses. Between tractors, combine harvesters, airport towmasters and mobile staircases, forklifts, trucks and a range of military vehicles, they were very well used. The 218ci version of the short one was also used in tanks (or at least set to be used in them...) in an assembly of five engines, all at different angles and framed together in an awkward circle to drive out a common shaft. 30 side valve cylinders, some with dry sumps because of their mounting angle, they have captured the imagination of many ever since.

Interestingly enough, Zeder's son James and Owen Skelton were, together with Rob Roger, part of the team that designed the first of the Hemi V8s that eventually provided the power that would put the old side valve sixes in the shade, eventually seeing them superseded in car use in 1960 when the slant six came on line. They continued in military vehicles and some export markets.

[Ron B.]

Originally posted by fines


There's nothing like a good PR saga, based on myth, is there?

Facts: Chrysler tested an oversize engine in a Kurtis roadster, while simultaneously lobbying AAA to allow extra capacity for stock-block engines. Not surprisingly, the proposal was rejected when it turned out that racing equipment worth several hundreds of thousands of dollars would be obsolescent overnight. The engines Chrysler built according to the rules went too slow to qualify.

Hi,the only hemis i knew of was the 1955 entry of Al Dean (car #7 ?) with a Dodge hemi ( yes i k now,it's not a chrysler.. ) modified by Tony Capanna ,who founded the Wilcap company which is still trading.
The car wasn't a Kurtis but a Kuzma which had been driven to second place the year before by Jimmy Bryan. In 1955's effort he managed several laps in practice at very competitve speeds ,but when Bob Christie tried to Qualify the car the engines lower end blew.
In 1958 Tony Capanna came back with a 270 inch Desoto Hemi to be driven by Al Unser(car#51) . This engine had special crank ,needle rocker and cam bearings ,special crank supports with5 a Harmon/Collins cam shaft. Machine was fast but also blew .

[Ron B.]

In the meantime an old mate has just emailed me with a link to a car i had forgotten about,Joe Freemans 1952 indy Kurtis, the aforementioned Chysler powered car. i can recall reading about it in the 1970's and seeing a lot of photo's of the fancy injection etc it had. Chysler were the leaders in research in the US when it came to intake and exhaust development.

http://www.powerplay...52.Indy.car.gif
The older pictures are straight from Chrysler Archives .The trans in the picture is pure US technology of the time and those who have worked on them will recognise the Ford V8 influence in the drive shaft ball etc. Apart from the obvious mods the rear of the block has had the integral bell housing removed ( long block hemi ) and a massive sump fitted.

[VDP]

Where I m lost is the engine capacity from The serie 80 one of this car took part at Le Mans in the hand of Sommer.

Robert

[Ron B.]

The Hemi above was a 311 and is known as the A-311.
Chrysler began testing racing versions of its stockblock 331-cu-in. Hemi engine in 1952. The company's A-311 race engine — first used in a car that performed high-speed tire testing for Firestone and Goodyear — incorporated larger ports, roller tappets, and Hillborn fuel injection.

In 1954, Chrysler invited the top-four finishing drivers from that year's Indy 500 to its newly opened Chelsea proving grounds. The drivers took their Offenhauser race cars for a wide-open spin on the highly banked 4.7-mile oval at speeds to 179 mph. Much to their chagrin, the A-311-powered tire-test car went 3 mph faster, showing that the Hemi could compete with the more exotic 270 Offenhauser.

News of the rout spread quickly. Offy owners lobbied the AAA Contest Board to cut displacement of the Hemi engine to 272 cu in. In response, Chrysler shortened the A-311's stroke to meet spec for the 1955 season, but the engine was no longer competitive.

[Ron B.]

Originally posted by VDP
Where I m lost is the engine capacity from The serie 80 one of this car took part at Le Mans in the hand of Sommer.

Robert

Possibly a 2.8 liter,or 170 cu in engine although modifications to increase power may have enlarged it somewhat.
There is a good list of the dozens of different engines that Mopar built here.
http://en.wikipedia....Flathead_engine

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by VDP
Where I m lost is the engine capacity from The serie 80 one of this car took part at Le Mans in the hand of Sommer

My notes say 4.6 litres

[fines]

Originally posted by Ron B.
News of the rout spread quickly. Offy owners lobbied the AAA Contest Board to cut displacement of the Hemi engine to 272 cu in. In response, Chrysler shortened the A-311's stroke to meet spec for the 1955 season, but the engine was no longer competitive.

Myths die hard, don't they?

There was no displacement limit "to cut", these engines were oversize, simple as that. It's like building a 3-litre engine today, and complaining that F1 won't let you race because you're too fast.

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by Ron B.
heres something I borrowed from the Chysler Group site to show how much use the chrysler Hemi engine got in racing of various sorts.
A journey through a remarkable engine's remarkable history ...

1954 Cunningham HEMI®s win Sebring again, third and fifth at Le Mans..

That should come as news to Stirling Moss and Bill Lloyd, who probably still believe that they won Sebring in an Osca 1500.
Tom

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by Ron B.

Kurtiss !?!? One of my peeves: the use of a name, etc., in any type of publication without bothering to check on how the word is spelled!

(No offense to Ron, who posted the piece but did not write it)
Tom

[rdrcr]

As an enthusiast of Chrysler engineering and of relevance here, the HEMI and other large displacement Chrysler engines, I offer the 413 wedge ~



This engine has seen its share of victories as well - most notably in the '60s with Grand National and LSR records at Bonneville and El Mirage.

In the hands of AAR, the smaller displacement 340 was quite fast in the Trans Am series. Unfortunately, they didn't have the finishing results that would have kept the factory effort involved in the years to come.

I believe a couple of years ago, the Chrysler 300 series was a featured marque at the FoS with lots of fine examples making the pilgrimage from this side of the pond.

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by rdrcr
In the hands of AAR, the smaller displacement 340 was quite fast in the Trans Am series. Unfortunately, they didn't have the finishing results that would have kept the factory effort involved in the years to come.

Wasn't the Trans Am displacement limit at that time 5.0 liters? (305ci)
Tom

[rdrcr]

Yes, to conform with the 305 C.I. rule, Chrysler Trans-Am manager Pete Hutchinson and engine builder Keith Black destroked the small-block 340 to 303.8 cubic inches. IIRC, at the peak of their development they were producing about 500 hp.

[fines]

Originally posted by RA Historian
Kurtiss !?!? One of my peeves: the use of a name, etc., in any type of publication without bothering to check on how the word is spelled!

Probably just make-up time for the many occasions when the aero engine got spelt "Curtis"!

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by VDP
Where I m lost is the engine capacity from The series 80 one of this car took part at Le Mans in the hand of Sommer.

David has mentioned 4.6 litres... the ZSB range of engines went up to over 5-litres... in 1927 the 5080cc L-80 was said to be the most powerful American car.

It was the bigger sixes that the straight eights of later design replaced. Concurrently with those ZSB sixes, Plymouth had arrived with a big four, while the Dodge four came into the corporation briefly.

[Ron B.]

Ray,there is also a very big sidevalve 6 I have only seen mentioned once,i will have to have dig for it. Mostly used in heavy trucks etc.

[Ron B.]

Originally posted by rdrcr
As an enthusiast of Chrysler engineering and of relevance here, the HEMI and other large displacement Chrysler engines, I offer the 413 wedge ~



This engine has seen its share of victories as well - most notably in the '60s with Grand National and LSR records at Bonneville and El Mirage.

In the hands of AAR, the smaller displacement 340 was quite fast in the Trans Am series. Unfortunately, they didn't have the finishing results that would have kept the factory effort involved in the years to come.

I believe a couple of years ago, the Chrysler 300 series was a featured marque at the FoS with lots of fine examples making the pilgrimage from this side of the pond.

I had a 426 Max Wedge,a 1963 superstock version . Bought to Australia in 1964 after season of drag racing in the US it was punted around OZ 's fledgling drag strips and i THINK it may have run at Bathurst.
I only owned the engine,the car itself is still in Western Australia but last time I saw it was pretty rough.
A friend has the only other MW III I have seen in a road car...!!! a Petty look alike Dodge. BTW,factory figures for a max wedge are 425 HP ,the accepted limit by insurance companies in the day.
So there was one Big block Chrysler with a bit of racing history on the track in OZ ....possibly.

[Lee Nicolle]

A little research on saw tooth and Valiant V8s. 313 and 318 sawtooth are the same engine. 3.875 and 3.91 bores. 3.31 stroke Val V8 cranks and rods are interchangeable.Some truck cranks are steel. And some have a large flange and 8 bolts though most are the standard 6. 313 came first in Chrysler royals here plus import big cars. 318 arrived around 63 in Royals and Phionex.These engines were used in trucks and cars of most sizes.The sawtooth has intake exhaust, intake exhaust head layout where Vals have exh intake intake [like a Chev] Evidently a Val head will bolt on a sawtooth block BUT the pistons would have to be modified and the cam changed [they go in the same] and then you still need an intake. Plus it would be far more sense to use the Val engine anyway.
Dodge Q, slant 6, sawtooth engine and 6 and V8 Valiant engines all basically bolt in the same hole but you run into enless starter/ ringgear hassles. I once put a VH 318 into a D5N Dodge originally 245 hemi powered.Used the original bellhousing [though only some fit!!], 245 flywheel [offset one hole about 2mm] and clutch, appropriate mounts. But then the starter hassle. In the end it was a early60s slant 6 truck starter that worked [though was not really right then]
All quite good engines but why they made so many different variations on all these components still defies logic. Unfortunatly there is very little aftermarket [or genuine] parts advailable for sawtooths, yet alone performance parts.273, 318 Valiants are not much better. 340s and 360s have some performance gear but nothing like a Ford, Chev or even Holden V8.
A friend of mine has been using sawtooth engines in [now] classic Supermodifieds for near 40 years. and has built most combinations. And used A block [Val] parts that interchange and are stronger.

[Ron B.]

313 parts will still not fit a Chrysler 318 though.As I have said the 313 block and heads are shorter,the rockers covers don't even look the same.The bore and stroke of a 313 is 3.88bore and stroke is 3.31 .Whereas the 318 is 3.91x 3.31

The 313 V8 appeared in 1957 in the Canadian Custom Royal. For 1958, the 313 became the standard V8 for the 118" wheelbase Plymouth and Dodge models. It was available in Plymouth and Dodge models through 1964, and was replaced by the 318 for 1965. The poly 318 was last used in Canadian production on the 1967 models.
The 303 was introduced in Canada before the U.S. Plymouth Fury came on the market. It was used in the Canadian-built 1956 Dodge Custom Royal (2-bbl) and 1956 Chrysler Windsor (4-bbl). In 1957 is was used as the standard V8 in the 118" wheelbase Plymouth and Dodge models.

. All the various engines were made under the Mopar umbrella but the four 'names' were run as seperate companies which is why the LA engines were designed to replace all the varieties which were driving the company under with excessive costs. All the six cylinder engines were discontinued and three slant six engines used across the range.
Until recent years the OZ hemi six was unknown outside Australasia so it won't be found in too many searches .
Now, about the Poly block in the USA .
You can put the 360 crank in if you turn the journals down. I don't recall what displacement you get but the stroked 318 was real popular with the short track guys through the late 70s in the US.

This has been covered many times before, but here goes. Starting in 1956 Plymouth started the A series (277-301-303-318-326) engines that share little or nothing with the Hemi & Spitfire series engines. The 'poly' engines from Dodge (241-270-315-325), DeSoto(Dodge 325), Chrysler (301-331-354) and 55-56 Plymouth (Dodge 241-259-270) are all based on the Hemi engine design and can be converted to Hemi. The easy way to id the difference is that the 'A' engines have an intake manifold that seals the valley. The other Poly/Spitfire engines have an air-gap style intake with a separate valley cover. The 301 Chrysler is not the same as a 301 Plymouth. ....no wonder that 'new guys' have a hard time with the Mopes..
The 241,256 (Plymouth ) are low deck and the 315, 325 are high deck so the intake and water pump housings will not interchange. The heads ( Poly ) will interchange, the early ones 241,270 have smaller valves. The flywheels will fit the 241,270, 315,325, the 277, 303,318 early ( 8 hole crank ) .
The DeSoto 325 Poly is actually a Dodge engine & is converted with Dodge, not DeSoto, hemi heads.

Now look very care fully this is a Chrysler 318 Poly engine

This is a dragster built by the guys at the Chrysler plant in South Australia,the picture was taken at fishermans bend ...right next to the holden plant
Chyrsler 1958 318 dual quad poly

303 Poly

Dodge 325 Hemi block

Chrysler Spitfire hemi block

[Ron B.]

All quite good engines but why they made so many different variations on all these components still defies logic. Unfortunatly there is very little aftermarket [or genuine] parts advailable for sawtooths, yet alone performance parts.273, 318 Valiants are not much better. 340s and 360s have some performance gear but nothing like a Ford, Chev or even Holden V8.

Lee,the Chrysler has always been high on performance,it was Ford and GM who lagged. Although the chev is popular it's only because they have made close to 30 million of them and they are cheap to build.
Chrysler on the other hand have had performance parts available exfactory since 1951 with entry in Pan Americana. ( I had parts off the engine used back then) .
With the small block mopar engines there are heads manifolds,cams and masses of information available directly from the factory. The demand was so great that back in the 70's a seperate company formed to manufacture and supply everything engines to Chassis for dirt tracker.
This called" Direct Connection".
For anyone choosing to build a Valiant or Dodge dart for historic racing( rallying etc ) the best source of information is the " Mopar Engines" book. Chrysler part number P5249010 .I got mine From Chrysler Service publications,20770 West wood road Strongsville Ohio 44136 USA.
And let us not forget cars like the 340 Challenger T/A with six bbl intake,or even a Challenger 440 magnum with the 6bbl option and then there things like interceptors with the 440 and 6bbl.
Finally no way in this wide world would a Holden in any configuration ever take on an equivalent Mopar 360.been there and done both.;)

[Lee Nicolle]

Ron, since I have seen people using 313 bored to 318 using a 318 Val crank with 360 conrods I think they are interchangeable.And he has been doing that for near 40 years! And the rocker covers are the same.
As for Direct Connection, that was 20 years ago.Nothing advailable now. I have those 70s catalogues too.And you dont build a remotely good engine now using 30 y/o technology.Trying to get a half decent set of pistons for a 360 these days is hard.318, forget it. Plain old cast. I have built both of these engines in the last 18 months. read the Rocket catalogue, pages for Chevs, a column for A block. Old sawtooths are not even listed.My mate is using Badger pistons which are not real flash, and defenitly not a race piston.In the 70s you could buy forged high comps but not now. And his headgaskets come out of the states, noone sells them here.[performance]
Then I build a Chev and can buy quality, cheap aftermarket pistons, heads, cranks, rods etc, much the same for a 302 Windsor and slightly less for a 253-308.You are always chasing your tail with Mopars.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Ron B.
Ray,there is also a very big sidevalve 6 I have only seen mentioned once,i will have to have dig for it. Mostly used in heavy trucks etc.

Oh yes, forgot that one...

Coming in capacities of 281, 306, 331, 377 and 413 cubic inches, it started life just before WW2 and was produced into the fifties.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle
Ron, since I have seen people using 313 bored to 318 using a 318 Val crank with 360 conrods I think they are interchangeable.And he has been doing that for near 40 years! And the rocker covers are the same.....

Now Lee... Ron is having a hard time with this...

The 313 was purely a Canadian build of the 318. I've posted that before and I'll stand by it. It's in all the books, magazines and web pages on the subject, not everyone can be wrong!

Worse... I've pulled them both apart, I've laid the parts down side by side. I have two 313 truck engines that have been bored 0.030" and fitted with standard 318 pistons, the rods and cranks are identical, the timing covers, the heads, the rocker covers... whoops... maybe not!

No there were some changes, but they actually affect both the 318s and the 313s at the same time. From 1962 on they had different placement of the bellhousing dowels and the lower bellhousing bolts. They had 8-bolt crank flanges that stood out further from the block until the end of the '61 model year, 6-bolt after that. And they had three bolts securing the rocker covers and that changed to two. The centre one, so clearly seen in the pic of Ian's dragster engine and the other two engines, was dropped about that time.

Ron, you're welcome to come around any time you like and look them over, I've got a few here, my nephew has more at his place. Or go to the Allpar site and read up on them, go to the Moparmarket forum and look in on the truck section and ask Tony Westoz about it. Or the Forward Look forum and ask the guys there.

I don't know so much about the other Poly engines, but I'm fairly sure there were none in Chryslers or Plymouths, they were a De Soto and Dodge thing.

And the Poly pictured was known as the A engine from its inception... the canted valve 350 engine was known as the B engine and it grew eventually to 440 cubic inches in its raised block form.

The LA designations stands for 'Lightweight A'... starting as the 273 in 1964 and taking over from the Poly in 313/318 cubes in 1967 and 1968 respectively in the US and Canada. Canada then went to 318 as well... and the later derivatives were the 340 and the long stroke 360. A 318 with a machined down 360 crank delivers about 349 cubes... a 4" stroker, readily available, delivers 402 or 406 depending on what oversize a 360 block is when it's fitted.

There are in fact plenty of aftermarket bits too. There are alloy heads from Edelbrock and others, there are rods that are made for Chevys that are quite usable as well as some that are made for Mopar engines, forged pistons for LA engines are available over the counter, Polys to special order, camshaft blanks are available for Polys as well. My nephew bought an aluminium flywheel off the shelf for his Poly, the one thing that's hard to get is an inlet manifold of modern design for a Poly.

I'm going to address that myself...

[Lee Nicolle]

Ray, you are right on track. I believe [may be wrong] that the 8 bolt cranks were from bigger trucks. The 313 was used until [in oz] Chrysler Royals, finny Mopars, Dodge trucks and Phoneboxes and was updated, here, to 318 in about 62. The last of the Royals etc used them. Evidently most 313s are painted silver and 318s are red. The speedway engines I have been involved with have usually been a collection of bits, not complete engines. I know the trucks had different timing covers than cars, probably something to do with front engine mounts.And yes there is virtually no performance gear advailable now.His engine uses a triple 97 Edelbrock set up but it probably is over 40 years old.
What you could buy even 2 years ago for Valiant V8s is often now not advailable anywhere. Though there is some strong street performance parts advailable. Edelbrock make Performer RPM alloy heads which should make decent power but not really a race head. I think you can still get W2s which are better for racing.
Most of the factory road car 340-360 heads these days are all worn out cracked corroded junk.And the smaller 318 heads are not much better. They have very little material under the valve seats. I have seen them corroded through under an exhaust valve! Though I think they were cooling it with mud. They are not good cantidates for inserts as they go through when cut, or crack when the insert is pressed in. Even putting bigger valves in can cause grief.The old sawtooths seem a lot better in that regard.
The lumpy top opistons advailable for 340-360 are not ideal either as they are really a Chev piston with a Chrysler pin height. and the Chrysler chamber is a fair bit different to a Chev.

[Ray Bell]

I don't profess to know all there is to know about these things, Lee... but I am currently playing with them because of my nephew's project (read all about it here...)...

It does seem that a lot of the Royal engines and early truck engines are silver... but the two 313 truck engines I have from AT4s are both red. They are the later model ones, so the colour probably relates more to the year of build.

You're right on the following points:

● Chrysler Royals used 313s until very late in production. I believe that they simply slipped Phoenix mechanical packages into the last of the bodies they built as it was well after the change in production to the 6-bolt crank and alloy Torqueflite. But there was also a change to the 8¾" rear end, which would have been a 'special' for the narrower track of the Royal. It is possible, as mentioned before, that Bristol also got the earlier block/crank flange configuration later than the change to US and Canadian production.

● Australian produced 'Fin' cars did get the 318 Poly. Definitely a 318, but only (as far as I can ascertain) from 1960 onwards, which means it was only in Phoenixes. I'm reasonably confident that the earlier local assembly Belvederes got the 350 big block as did the Custom Royals.

● Trucks got the Poly 313 in small numbers during the Pilot House era (to 1961? in Australia), but not many of them as most had 245 flatheads. There was also a few 350s used. When AT4s came along, they used slant 225s as the base engine, 313 Polys and 361 big blocks (and a few had GM 6-53s and maybe the odd Perkins). I'm not sure exactly when the AT4s arrived, so I don't know if they had the 8-bolt cranks and different dowel and bolt patterns. This may be why you are thinking that 8-bolt cranks are from trucks, as you might not have been observing the bolt/dowel pattern. This was purely a 1962 model year production change. I don't know when the trucks went to 318s.

So why did we have the mix, 313 and 318?

Simple... we had a tariff structure on the importation of cars and trucks and parts therefor. Stuff built in Canada carried a lower rate of import duty, so the lower market range cars, the Royals, had the Canadian stuff... ie. 313s. The much higher priced Phoenixes had US-built gear.

One item not attracting duty was farm machinery. Case headers came with US-built 318 Polys.

Of course, all Polys were gone before the end of the '67 model year here.

And on the timing covers, I'm fairly sure that you find the same cast iron one on at least the early Royal 313 engine as on the trucks. I also think it's used on the later trucks because of that front engine mount 'collar'. But in those earlier times, late '57 (yeah, the first of them here were 303s, I think... not many of them), it's quite likely that the iron one was either the only one made or was used to standardise production and reduce spares inventory.

These engines were assembled in Australia, by the way, and differences between the trucks and cars to my knowledge were:

● Induction hardening of crank journals (possibly why truck cranks crack and break?)

● Lower compression pistons

● Bigger flywheel that steps out from the block to give clearance for all-encasing truck bellhousing (what am I saying? No manual V8s except two that escaped in Phoenixes in 1960... they had to be different!)

You can get pistons for the LAs, off the shelf, at least Ross sell Forged LA pistons. And Ross will custom build pistons for a Poly (they probably have all the stuff right to go, but don't catalogue them even though they'll make them)... we priced them at $US650 the set through one supplier.

[johnny yuma]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ron B.
[B]

I had a 426 Max Wedge,a 1963 superstock version . Bought to Australia in 1964 after season of drag racing in the US it was punted around OZ 's fledgling drag strips and i THINK it may have run at Bathurst.

Interesting speculation. Clyde Hodgins,the SMH motoring journalist,entered a Dodge Phoenix in the Bathurst 500 several times with little success.Never a match for the Studebakers,or anything else really !!

[Ray Bell]

Okay... let's clear this up...

Clod Hygeine never ran a Dodge at Bathurst. Whether he entered one or not, I don't recall, but I don't think so.

Just one Dodge ran at Bathurst, the 318 Poly-powered '63 model entered by John Barnard Spares for Barry Sharp and Lindsay Derriman in 1967. It ran reliably all day but was outpaced by at least one Studebaker. Of course, Alfas dominated that class and the Stude was in the class dominated by Falcon GTs, they were only bit players.

No other Dodge ran at Bathurst with a V8 engine... ever...

The car in WA to which Ron refers has recently had a total refurbish and is looking good. It's still the record holder in its class at the drags... and Alan Caelli raced it at Calder and Hume Weir about 1966.

[johnny yuma]

Ray you are right again,I consulted the Oracle and Slide Dodgems was in a Morris 1100S at the 1967 500 ,not a Dodge Fiendish,and he appears never to have been in a Dodge there.False memories!

BUT in 1966 Bathurst 500,VC V8 Valiants came in 10th and 11th behind all those Cooper Ss. Boddenberg/Cook and Nougher/O'keefe were the team..I guess those were 273 Chrysler V8s with torqueflite Auto boxes?

[Ray Bell]

Give the former absentee a packet of mints...

You're right! 273 LA V8s with A904 automatics.

[Ron B.]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Okay... let's clear this up...

Clod Hygeine never ran a Dodge at Bathurst. Whether he entered one or not, I don't recall, but I don't think so.

Just one Dodge ran at Bathurst, the 318 Poly-powered '63 model entered by John Barnard Spares for Barry Sharp and Lindsay Derriman in 1967. It ran reliably all day but was outpaced by at least one Studebaker. Of course, Alfas dominated that class and the Stude was in the class dominated by Falcon GTs, they were only bit players.

No other Dodge ran at Bathurst with a V8 engine... ever...

The car in WA to which Ron refers has recently had a total refurbish and is looking good. It's still the record holder in its class at the drags... and Alan Caelli raced it at Calder and Hume Weir about 1966.

Red Plymouth actually,

I was going to ask more about that because I had one too. But mine was four door hardtop instead of a two door.
They fetch insane money in the US because the max wedge cars were only available to select clients and each and every one is accounted for. They had alloy bumpers,bonnets and boot lids with seats without most of the stuffing to save weight. The rear springs were two different lengths,one side is shorter than the other to maintain traction and lots of other little differences,basically to race on Sunday and sell on Monday..
This is the Max Wedge engine that was in the red Plymouth originally,pretty much worse for wear it went to the USA to be installed in a 1962 Dodge Super stock.


Mine was imported by Hertz rentals for the use of the hertz heirachy according to a well known OZ motoring journalist,who is/was writing a book about Mopars in Australia.

[raceannouncer2003]

Two of the cars of Dick Hahn of Yakima, Washington...(quotes from "Long Straights and Hairpin Turns" by Martin Rudow)...

J2 Allard

1955 - Hahn..."My dad had bought a J2 Allard he saw a year earlier in San Francisco. We put a hemi in it, being Chrysler dealers..."
1956 - "...the hot Hahn car (was) made hotter over the winter with the addition of a new 300-hp Chrysler engine..."
Hahn drove the car once in a hill climb, but never drove again himself. This Allard was raced by Lew Florence and Ray Rairdon in 1955 and 1956.

Kurtis 500S-Chrysler

1956 - "...Dick had axquired an ex-Carrera Pan Americana (Tony Bettenhausen?) Kurtis chassis, dropping another big Chrysler (Hemi) engine into it. Again, although Chrysler may not have been making the best engine for sports car racing, the Hahn dealership dictated that make had to be used..." This car was driven to wins by Lew Florence and Jerry Grant, and was also raced by Tom Carstens, Don Jensen, and Kenny Peterson till 1960.

Here is a photo of Lew in the car at Shelton, Washington, circa 1958. Also, the Hahn team emblem:



The Hahn dealership still sells Chryslers, as well as BMW and Mercedes. http://www.hahnmotors.com/

Hopefully, Jerry Grant, Dick Hahn, and Dick's racing daughter Cindi Lux, will be at our Westwood reunion in July.

Vince H.

[Ron B.]

It looks as though it only the weight of the Hemi holding her flat into that turn.. Does the car still exist ?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Ron B.
Red Plymouth actually.....

Now it's bronze:





Of course, in the Ash Marshall/Alan Caelli days it was red:



I think Hume Weir would have been hard work in that car!

And so must this car have had a struggle:



It's yet another Chrysler V8-powered car I'd forgotten. Col Riches' 1930 DD Dodge, fitted with a V8 in the mid to late sixties. I had thought it was earlier, but the earliest photo I have of it includes a 1957 or later Simca. It could well have a Poly in it. Thanks to Kevin Drage for the Collingrove photo.

[Ron B.]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Now Lee... Ron is having a hard time with this...

The 313 was purely a Canadian build of the 318. I've posted that before and I'll stand by it. It's in all the books, magazines and web pages on the subject, not everyone can be wrong!

Worse... I've pulled them both apart, I've laid the parts down side by side. I have two 313 truck engines that have been bored 0.030" and fitted with standard 318 pistons, the rods and cranks are identical, the timing covers, the heads, the rocker covers... whoops... maybe not!

No there were some changes, but they actually affect both the 318s and the 313s at the same time. From 1962 on they had different placement of the bellhousing dowels and the lower bellhousing bolts. They had 8-bolt crank flanges that stood out further from the block until the end of the '61 model year, 6-bolt after that. And they had three bolts securing the rocker covers and that changed to two. The centre one, so clearly seen in the pic of Ian's dragster engine and the other two engines, was dropped about that time.




I don't know so much about the other Poly engines, but I'm fairly sure there were none in Chryslers or Plymouths, they were a De Soto and Dodge thing.




The LA designations stands for 'Lightweight A'... starting as the 273 in 1964 and taking over from the Poly in 313/318 cubes in 1967 and 1968 respectively in the US and Canada. Canada then went to 318 as well... and the later derivatives were the 340 and the long stroke 360. A 318 with a machined down 360 crank delivers about 349 cubes... a 4" stroker, readily available, delivers 402 or 406 depending on what oversize a 360 block is when it's fitted.

There are in fact plenty of aftermarket bits too. There are alloy heads from Edelbrock and others, there are rods that are made for Chevys that are quite usable as well as some that are made for Mopar engines, forged pistons for LA engines are available over the counter, Polys to special order, camshaft blanks are available for Polys as well. My nephew bought an aluminium flywheel off the shelf for his Poly, the one thing that's hard to get is an inlet manifold of modern design for a Poly.

I'm going to address that myself...

ha ha Ray,I've been all through years ago when i had a US Plymouth Fury (1956) in NZ which had a burnt valve. The local wrecker had a poly head engine so i bought the heads off it. Got them home,and yes they did look similar but different.I couldn't figure it out and because the car was an orphan no one else had any idea either( I was 15) . I went back to wrecker and did a deal on the poly ,which was Chrysler 318 from a phoenix.
About a month late another mate bought in a OZ Royal ( gawd they are UGLY! ) with V8,Cool we said,the engine is the same as the plymouths...again no nothing fit there either and the Royals 313 heads wouldn't fit the phoenix's 318. I struck this about 15 years AGAIN out at lightning ridge where one of the wreckers ( burgler bill ) has a pile of polys of both 318 and 313 ,so I was able to see the clear differences .He got cuaght the same as me with his tow truck. he cracked a head down by Wagga ,so he bought head from a wrecker down there and guess what? wouldn't fit.
Regarding the intake for a poly,the Fountains here in OZ make some plus nice rocker covers. The Weiand 4Bbl intake is hard to beat on an engine you run over 4500 rpm while the cast iron factory single 4bbl works well on a street engine.
i've run both over the decades but the biggest single improvement I made to my last Fury was the second hand 360 i bought sight unseen . I haven't the faintest idea what was in it,but with balanced convertor I bolted it to my 727 and proceeded to scare the shite out of everyone. at 100mph I could kick it down and it would wind the speedo off the clock ( 120mph ...) while still acelerating .

Lee ,what I meant to add was that the new name is 'Mopar performance' although Dick landy etc is still available for advice ;) Consider that Chrysler engines are still doing the deed on drag strips today around the world (google Barton race engines) and nobody has been seriously racing Holden V8's for years .
Now one of those monster flathead sixes would be the go in a vintage race special...what do ya reckon?

[Ron B.]

It's a pity it has had the 1980's prostock look with the tubbed wheel housings.
I have(had) pictures of it when it first arrived in Australia on the wharf . It still had all it's US sign writing etc on the front with little labels stuck on to inform anyone not to lean on the bonnet or they would damage the soft panels. There were two 1964 SS plymouths imported later and all three would race each other on strips around the country. But that red car on the circuit looks more like my four door than a two door.

[Peter Leversedge]

Chrysler V8 engines are used in a few sprint cars in the US and 1/2 engines in midgets [ Speedcars Aust ? ]
A few years ago Garry Murch ran a Chrysler in a sprint car here in NZ

[David Shaw]

Originally posted by Ray Bell

It's yet another Chrysler V8-powered car I'd forgotten. Col Riches' 1930 DD Dodge, fitted with a V8 in the mid to late sixties. I had thought it was earlier, but the earliest photo I have of it includes a 1957 or later Simca. It could well have a Poly in it. Thanks to Kevin Drage for the Collingrove photo.

First record I have of it is April 5, 1958 at Port Wakefield where it won the 8 lap Saloon and Touring Car Handicap.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Ron B.
It's a pity it has had the 1980's prostock look with the tubbed wheel housings.
I have(had) pictures of it when it first arrived in Australia on the wharf . It still had all it's US sign writing etc on the front with little labels stuck on to inform anyone not to lean on the bonnet or they would damage the soft panels. There were two 1964 SS plymouths imported later and all three would race each other on strips around the country. But that red car on the circuit looks more like my four door than a two door.

I agree, it's a pity...

But the pic at Hume Weir is definitely the same car. It's a bit blurry, but you can see enough to make out it's a 2-door.

[Terry Walker]

From driver notes in the race Programme from Port Wakefield, 13 October 1958, about the car driven by G C Riches:

"51: Riches Motor Co: This is the Dodge DD Tourer of 1931 vintage now fitted with a Chrysler V8 engine of some 180 bhp. Truly a staggering combination."

Truly!

[Lee Nicolle]

I seem to remember the Ramchargers Dodges in the mid 60s with the rear wheels and arches moved forward.
The Chrysler Sprintcar engines were quite succesful a few years back. Mark Kinser won a World Of Outlaws series. There was a few here too Gary Brazier campigned one with success, he possibly won a title with it too. In the 70s there was quite a few succesful Mopars. Here in Adelaide Phil Hereen ran a 318 powered Super Mod which races up til the early 80s in a varity of hands.Suddenly, the 361 Dodge powered monster that was owned by Kevin Fischer and driven by Kevin, Zeke Agars and then Bill Wigzell was a top car in about 69-71. [Was later super quick with the L88 Chev. Bob Aylesbury was very succesfull in the Dave Germein owned car [still being used by Dave in Classic events] and later in Wayne Bunkers Direct Connection car and there was others with Val V8s and poly engines. There was a lot of polys and Val V8s in stock rods too. Les Baker and his son are still using a 340 in V8 Dirt Modifieds now which does not lack for power.
There was a lot of Modifieds and Stockrods that used Slant 6 engines too.Strangely few seem to survive these days though most were updated to Chevs in the 70s

[Lee Nicolle]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Now it's bronze:





Of course, in the Ash Marshall/Alan Caelli days it was red:



I think Hume Weir would have been hard work in that car!

And so must this car have had a struggle:



It's yet another Chrysler V8-powered car I'd forgotten. Col Riches' 1930 DD Dodge, fitted with a V8 in the mid to late sixties. I had thought it was earlier, but the earliest photo I have of it includes a 1957 or later Simca. It could well have a Poly in it. Thanks to Kevin Drage for the Collingrove photo.

And Collingrove hill still looks exactly the same, a fiendish, narrow bumpy piece of bitumen. But it is great fun !!

[Ron B.]

I no longer have a copy ,but isn't there a picture of the red Plymouth in the Bathurst Book rounding the top of the mountain amongst some cortinas?
A more suitable choice would have the NASCAR versions that Petty and company raced in 1964.
174MPH with the Hemi...now wouldn't that have stirred the pot down Conrod?


Number 25 Paul Goldsmith, #43 Richard Petty, and #26 Bobby Isaac battle for the lead in the early laps of the Feb. 23 Daytona 500. Goldsmith won the pole with a record speed of 174.910 mph. Petty qualified nearly 20 mph faster than he did in 1963 when his Plymouth was equipped with a conventional Chrysler engine. Petty drove to a lopsided victory in the 500, leading 184 of the 200 laps. Goldsmith finished third, while Isaacwas credited with a 15th-place finish.

[Ray Bell]

Sorry Ron, just like the 313s and 318s are the same, the only Dodge to run at Bathurst since 1960 was the bog standard '63 Poly-powered Phoenix of Barry Sharp and Lindsay Derriman...

There is a pic of it in RCN coming out of the Dipper with a horde of Minis and a Datsun on its tail.

Caelli never even entered at Bathurst. Calder and Hume Weir for sure, possibly a Sandown.

[Ron B.]

Not Dodge Ray,,Plymouth,they were Mopars but seperate companies .I am sure i have seen a picture of it and with Johnny larsen driving.