80 replies to this topic

[PeterElleray]

Well, here we go then, a thread on the Fittipaldi Brother's epnoymous F1 team of the 70's and 80's..

It should have worked, at one time the personnel included Emerson, Keke Rosberg,Peter Warr, Harvey Postlethwaite , Adrian Newey, and other good people too numerous to mention. Thats a total of a dozen or so world championships and 2 indy 500 wins between them ..

And yet, in 8 complete seasons of F1 participation the net total of achievement amounts to 1 2nd place in 1978, and 2 3rd places in 1980, for emmo and keke, 1 apiece..

So what happened? Certainly the designers of those cars - Divilia, Dave Baldwin, Ralph Bellamy, Caliri, Harvey P. all have solid reputations within the sport and showed their abilities elsewhere.

Emerson had impecable credentials at the start of 1976... Rosberg we now know had as much raw speed as any of his contemporaries..

At times, it seemed that the team lacked direction, at other times finances were tight..

So whats the story - contributions from 'within' welcome, also the Brazilian perspective..

Here is a teaser, F5 in 1978 spec, 'unpodded' at silverstone in 2007 - when is an ensign not an ensign...

peter

[ghinzani]

81&82 they really built up their debts to suppliers in the Industry. I recall GPI making note of that in uncertain terms in 84 when Emmo tested the Spirit, which I recall as brave. Certainly these days they would have had their asses sued off if they had printed that sort of thing.

[PeterElleray]

the continuing story of the fittipaldi f6....

so, looking at the tech illustrator thread we have the interesting suggestion that the front end 'flexed' in some way...

looking at the few pictures i have of the car without bodywork i have to say im surprised to read that - certainly i would have expected some flex with a rocker arm suspension, but no more than say on the lotus 78 that fitti f6 designer ralph bellamy had just recently designed at team lotus. ralph was a super good detail man, very careful, very methodical. the top rocker pivot on the fittipaldi appears to be located on outrigged aluminium (and steel?) boxes, whereas on the lotus they were carried on steel frames hung off the side of a narrower chassis. so unless there was a devil in the detail on the fittipaldi that isnt obvious.

now, one other possibility is that the honeycpmb panels, which i beleive originated from the brazilian a/c industry, may not have been correctly laminated to the core? but if that is the case, im not sure how caliri's redesign of the car was intended to address this - it would mean throwing the original tub away, and i dont believe that happened.

so im not sure what all that's about. what i do know is that when a car doesnt work out the box there is usually a long queue of people either directly or peripherally involved, none of whom would be remotely capable of designing a race car themselves, who know EXACTLY what the problem is, and furthermore, they TOLD YOU IT WOULDNT WORK - but usually in a soft enough whisper that you didnt hear...

maybe thats what we're discussing...

peter

[Paulo Coimbra]

Originally posted by PeterElleray
the continuing story of the fittipaldi f6....

so, looking at the tech illustrator thread we have the interesting suggestion that the front end 'flexed' in some way...

looking at the few pictures i have of the car without bodywork i have to say im surprised to read that - certainly i would have expected some flex with a rocker arm suspension, but no more than say on the lotus 78 that fitti f6 designer ralph bellamy had just recently designed at team lotus. ralph was a super good detail man, very careful, very methodical. the top rocker pivot on the fittipaldi appears to be located on outrigged aluminium (and steel?) boxes, whereas on the lotus they were carried on steel frames hung off the side of a narrower chassis. so unless there was a devil in the detail on the fittipaldi that isnt obvious.

now, one other possibility is that the honeycpmb panels, which i beleive originated from the brazilian a/c industry, may not have been correctly laminated to the core? but if that is the case, im not sure how caliri's redesign of the car was intended to address this - it would mean throwing the original tub away, and i dont believe that happened.

so im not sure what all that's about. what i do know is that when a car doesnt work out the box there is usually a long queue of people either directly or peripherally involved, none of whom would be remotely capable of designing a race car themselves, who know EXACTLY what the problem is, and furthermore, they TOLD YOU IT WOULDNT WORK - but usually in a soft enough whisper that you didnt hear...

maybe thats what we're discussing...

peter

Peter,
I have a lot of pictures that show the whole precess of construction of F-5, besides a picture of the model in clay being worked in the center of style and design of GM in São Paolo.
Do I ask for a time to place here because I have that escan it, ok?
rgds

[Paulo Coimbra]

Peter,
Ricardo Divila accompanied the whole project of F-5 that was an adaptation of Ensign closely.
F-6 was an evolution of this, following the tendency of the cars wing.
Could we call Divila for that debate, what do you find?

[Bonde]

Looking at photos of the F6 as originally introduced, the front rockers do look remarkably long and slender, especially in depth of section, so I can imagine there may have been some unaccounted for flexure there. I have only seen the front of the chassis (photos on Racecars Direct some time ago) post-Fly-treatment, and I'm still with Peter 100% that what meets the eye there looks sound, at least as good as Lotus T78.

I assume that for aerodynamic reasons, Bellamy located the front rocker fulcrums further inboard than he'd done on T78, which softens the rocker but stiffens the chassis pick-up. I haven't been able to identify any immediate source of front geometry woes, but I would have thought that as the 79 season progressed geometry became less important as spring rates skyrocketed (or was that later?) - especially on a car with very long suspension arms such as the F6. Having said all that, Caliri did add a truss to the front rockers, and to my casual eye the front roll centre looks untypically low for a Good Year (bias ply) shod car of the period, whereas as low front roll centre/large camber gain seemed to work just fine on the Michelen radial shod Ferraris...which makes me wonder whether Fittipaldi were heading to Clermont-Ferrand for rubber for '79 but had to stop in Acron (Northampton?)? Rocker arm flexure would have had to be pretty severe to upset the geometry (kinematics), but it can certainly play absolute havoc with spring rates and especially damper settings (kinetics).

According to Bellamy in the Motor Sport article the basic problem was flexure of the rear wheel bearings, which can upset pretty much everything.

[Fluff warning: Not surprisingly perhaps, "my" 1979 "Ikantiki" was very much inspired by F6...(although 'twas a turbo straight 4).]

[PeterElleray]

Originally posted by Bonde
Looking at photos of the F6 as originally introduced, the front rockers do look remarkably long and slender, especially in depth of section, so I can imagine there may have been some unaccounted for flexure there. I have only seen the front of the chassis (photos on Racecars Direct some time ago) post-Fly-treatment, and I'm still with Peter 100% that what meets the eye there looks sound, at least as good as Lotus T78.

I assume that for aerodynamic reasons, Bellamy located the front rocker fulcrums further inboard than he'd done on T78, which softens the rocker but stiffens the chassis pick-up. I haven't been able to identify any immediate source of front geometry woes, but I would have thought that as the 79 season progressed geometry became less important as spring rates skyrocketed (or was that later?) - especially on a car with very long suspension arms such as the F6. Having said all that, Caliri did add a truss to the front rockers, and to my casual eye the front roll centre looks untypically low for a Good Year (bias ply) shod car of the period, whereas as low front roll centre/large camber gain seemed to work just fine on the Michelen radial shod Ferraris...which makes me wonder whether Fittipaldi were heading to Clermont-Ferrand for rubber for '79 but had to stop in Acron (Northampton?)? Rocker arm flexure would have had to be pretty severe to upset the geometry (kinematics), but it can certainly play absolute havoc with spring rates and especially damper settings (kinetics).

According to Bellamy in the Motor Sport article the basic problem was flexure of the rear wheel bearings, which can upset pretty much everything.

[Fluff warning: Not surprisingly perhaps, "my" 1979 "Ikantiki" was very much inspired by F6...(although 'twas a turbo straight 4).]

Anders - is this picture post caliri then? i guess it must be, photo originates from sales brochure from germany a year or two back. what is post bellamy and pre bellamy here? Rocker looks pretty beefy to me - williams fw06 shown for comparison?

interesting that GPI reports as early as south africa that the car had a rear suspension deficiency.. when the caliri version appeared , in germany, it seemed to have everyone puzzled. lots of critiscm of the skirts sticking, poor handling. caliri quoted as saying that the monocque wasnt stiff enough - good job he wasnt given a lotus 79 to sort then... new rear suspension, but no specifics about the front. infact just about everything EXCEPT the front suspension appears to have been redesigned..
wonder what wasnt stiff enough about the tub? details, details...

im sure theres an expert around here who KNEW it wasnt stiff enough...

Paulo - yes please do scan and post, and if you can find Ricardo or Richard Divilia (i think he has posted on here), cross his palm in whatever brazilians cross palms with and get him to post! (dont worry if you dont understand the last bit- english sense of humour!)

peter

[Paulo Coimbra]

Peter,Anders,
In my opinion of lay and searching, do I analyze the front chassis of F-6 as tends little rigidity, I can see the absence of a sub-chassis where you/they would be anchored the suspension triangles similar to the used in Ferrari 312T, it is not even? Anything besides small supports where notice the axes of each arm of the long superior triangles.
The sub-chassis were not common for the fixation and also a fast change in the cinematism? McLaren M23/Shadow DN5/Brabham BT44 /...???
With relationship to the humor sense, rs, am also like this...
My English is poor...rs But am I me making to understand, not?
Am I going escan, ok? I promise!

[Bonde]

Peter,

The German sales shots are definitely post-Caliri. If you look closely, you can just see the tubular truss member on the tension side of the rocker - Caliri added those.

At the car's launch there was no tubular strut from the bottom of the tub to the rocker fulcrum, but it was there by the first race in Brazil.

I will grant you that the rocker doesn't look much less beefy than on FW06, certainly not after it was "Caliriized". However, in some of the early season shots it does look more slender to me. Whether F6 had significantly more downforce than FW06 I don't know - if it did, it would've loaded those long cantilever beams more...

Boy, would I love to see some more detail photos of both F6 and F6A under the skin...

In its original form it was such a coherent and homegenous design to look at, wasn't it? The out-the-side exhausts may have spoiled the music, but they did make quite a lot of sense from a packaging stand point (but they could also have blown into the diffuser tunnel...). I also loved the original colour scheme - I have this thing for yellow racing cars

[PeterElleray]

Originally posted by Bonde
Peter,

The German sales shots are definitely post-Caliri. If you look closely, you can just see the tubular truss member on the tension side of the rocker - Caliri added those.

At the car's launch there was no tubular strut from the bottom of the tub to the rocker fulcrum, but it was there by the first race in Brazil.

I will grant you that the rocker doesn't look much less beefy than on FW06, certainly not after it was "Caliriized". However, in some of the early season shots it does look more slender to me. Whether F6 had significantly more downforce than FW06 I don't know - if it did, it would've loaded those long cantilever beams more...

Boy, would I love to see some more detail photos of both F6 and F6A under the skin...

In its original form it was such a coherent and homegenous design to look at, wasn't it? The out-the-side exhausts may have spoiled the music, but they did make quite a lot of sense from a packaging stand point (but they could also have blown into the diffuser tunnel...). I also loved the original colour scheme - I have this thing for yellow racing cars

ok - i didnt realise those were later additions, i agree that without them the outer section of the rocker looks slender - i will see what i can find, probably in Grand Prix international - but there arent that many pictures of the original. likewise, you just wouldnt load a rocker pivot without some sort of vertical member - very odd that it didnt have one initially - even to roll out.

it certainly reads like f6 didnt have significant ground effect - but then that wouldnt have been the original plan would it (!) and so if those rockers were undersized, well, thats a bit out of character for RB i would say.

peter

[Vitesse2]

http://forums.autosp...ighlight=Divila

[PeterElleray]

Originally posted by Paulo Coimbra
Peter,Anders,
In my opinion of lay and searching, do I analyze the front chassis of F-6 as tends little rigidity, I can see the absence of a sub-chassis where you/they would be anchored the suspension triangles similar to the used in Ferrari 312T, it is not even? Anything besides small supports where notice the axes of each arm of the long superior triangles.
The sub-chassis were not common for the fixation and also a fast change in the cinematism? McLaren M23/Shadow DN5/Brabham BT44 /...???
With relationship to the humor sense, rs, am also like this...
My English is poor...rs But am I me making to understand, not?
Am I going escan, ok? I promise!

Paulo - your portugese is probably one whole hell of a lot better than mine but i am struggling a bit to understand your post here...

if i understand your thoughts then you are questioning the rigidity of the 'sub chassis' to which the front rocker is attached? i would have said that this is actually a nicer solution than the more common 'plates' seen on virtually every other ground effect car of the era - and also it looks more substantial than the ferrari system, which the f6 layout owes a lot to.

The williams is the best of the lot, but then it isnt a particularly narrow tub by ground effect standards and the offsets are therefore lower.

the mclaren and brabham suspension pickups went straight into the tub here - the brabham was pull rod, the mclaren rocker but both have significant forces fed into the upper tub pickup, as opposed to a pushrod or outboard spring damper pivoting on the lower wishbone. the shadow did have a small overhang for the rocker, which was taken up by a steel fabrication - which was quite substantial.

please scan whatever you have on any of the fittipladi's, it would be great to see pictures of any of the cars in construction. you can be sure that Anders and I will appreciate it!

[PeterElleray]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
http://forums.autosp...ighlight=Divila

yep, thats the one.

[Darren Galpin]

Also an article I wrote with the help of Divila on the FD cars - see http://www.teamdan.c.../fittipaldi.pdf.

[PeterElleray]

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
Also an article I wrote with the help of Divila on the FD cars - see http://www.teamdan.c.../fittipaldi.pdf.

very interesting darren - also rather frustrating in that you have only been able to scartch the surface of what i would like to quizz richard on !- do you have access to him, could you persuade him onto tnf?

rgds

peter

[Darren Galpin]

He does browse TNF occasionally.... He is currently in Brazil, but I have dropped him an e-mail to let him know of the thread and your questions.

[PeterElleray]

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
He does browse TNF occasionally.... He is currently in Brazil, but I have dropped him an e-mail to let him know of the thread and your questions.

[ibsenop]

A few from the net











Photos of Fittipaldi FD01 at Interlagos 2007 Classicos de Competição
http://public.fotki....ittipaldi-fd01/

Ibsen

[macoran]

I hadn't realised that was your site Ibsen ! visted quite a few times in the past

[ibsenop]

Fittipaldi FD04

Scanned from Quatro Rodas 1976








Unrestored chassis at 2004 Salão do Automóvel - São Paulo











Ibsen
http://public.fotki.com/ibsenop

[Paulo Coimbra]

Friends Peter and macoran,
Ibsen is advancing if to me, he seems also to have very material of the cars in subject.
I already contacted Divila and he kindly were disposed the to explain to us the REALITY of the facts and to help us in relationship our doubts.
Do I ask for some patience again because my day has only 24 hours and of those, do I need to administer the 4 hours that I dispose for my studies and researches, ok?
I can say you that Ricardo Divila is an extremely intelligent person and with good will. Good people!
rgds

[PeterElleray]

ibesnop - excellent pictures, thanks for posting exactly what i had hoped for (any more fd04?- !!)

paulo - so we may be lucky enough to be able to talk to richard via the forum? that would be superb. please keep us informed...

these are the first decent photos ive ever seen of fd04 under the skin - the british press largely ignored it technically, infact pretty much wrote it off when the combination failed to gel.. i've always had a soft spot for it - infact it thought it looked super when first announced, maybe another car that the '76 airbox and wing regs wasnt kind to ? with luck, we will soon know a bit more and not have to speculate.

peter

[Bonde]

Thanks for sharing those excellent photos, Ibsen!

I'm curious if you're of Scandinavian descent, Ibsen being a fairly common Danish and Norwegian surname.


Peter must think I'm "aping" him in everything I say and do (or else great minds just think alike Peter's is the great mind, I'm just a wannabe). Anyway, I, too, had (have) a soft spot for FD04. 'Stunning' was the effect it had on me when I first saw it in a glorious colour centrespread in its original pre-April 1 '76 aero form - the combination of a full width, low mounted blade and a wide nose was visually quite appealing. WR1 also had that originally, as did Doc's prior 308B and C. I wonder how efficient that setup was - it didn't last for long. I still liked FD04 with the more conventional chisel nose and with low or no airbox - especially after it turned yellow. It appears to be such a compact and neat little car that I often wondered how Divila managed to fit all the fuel in!

I'll have to spend some time poring over the pictures of FD04 and F6 before I make further comments (which will probly sound like an ecco of whatever Peter beats me to...). One thing I did notice off-hand though was the difference in the FD04 scuttle hoops - on the first chassis with Emmo in it, it's a folded and welded sheet metal fabrication (or is it an aluminium honeycomb panel?), on the unrestored tub it's tubular. I would find it odd that the first tub would not be built to the '76 regs, as they would have been known about the time I suspect, and the first scuttle hoop structure looks like it is prepared for forward stays, much more structure than needed just to carry the steering wheel and much taller than necessary for a bulkhead joining the two side members. A change of heart or a nod from FISA?

[John-w]

Thanks for sharing those excellent photos, Ibsen!

Exact these kind of photos I need for my actual Fittipaldi FD-04 model in scale 1/20th.





Here are some photos from my finished Fittipaldi F5A.







John-w

[ibsenop]

Hi Bonde,

I'm not Scandinavian descent, Ibsen is my first name - a homage to Johan Henrik Ibsen - famous Norwegian writer.

Fittipaldi F5 scanned from an old Auto Esporte magazine

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, , , , ,

Ibsen

http://public.fotki.com/ibsenop

[PeterElleray]

ibsen - good post, thanks for the pics. does anyone know the background to wilson f. testing F5? i believe this was at zolder soon after the model was announced- but only because i have seen recently other pictures of the car on track with wilsons helmet popping out the top and tagged zolder 1977. its not emerson in wilsons helmet is it? i dont recall any mention in the uk press of wilson testing at all after 1975, in fd04 for instance - but he may well have done. any background would be intriguing.

this post does bring home the paucity of contemporary material in the british press about what autosport's gp reporter pete lyons christened the 'brazilian national hero race team' ! - with tongue firmly in cheek i think!

[ibsenop]

Text says Wilson Fittipaldi Testing at Interlagos. Testing Heliar batteries replacing Yuasa batteries. None adjustment to the suspension or airfoil and hard tyres. Lap Time 2m40,7s .

[PeterElleray]

Originally posted by ibsenop
Text says Wilson Fittipaldi Testing at Interlagos. Testing Heliar batteries replacing Yuasa batteries. None adjustment to the suspension or airfoil and hard tyres. Lap Time 2m40,7s .

interesting - i wonder if the 'zolder' reference is a wrong then? interlagos makes more sense.

[ibsenop]

Fittipaldi FD01 cutaway by Walter Brito



Ibsen
http://public.fotki.com/ibsenop

[ibsenop]

Photos copyright Rogério Luz

http://www.imagensdaluz.com/id134.html

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Emerson - Fittipaldi F6
Wilson - Fittipaldi FD01
Emerson and Ricardo Divila - Fittipaldi FD04

Ibsen
http://public.fotki.com/ibsenop

[Paulo Coimbra]

Friends,
I am awaiting the return of Ricardo Divila to France so that we can reestablish the debate the about of what they were Equipe Fittipaldi's projects in F1.
rgds

[PeterElleray]

Originally posted by Paulo Coimbra
Friends,
I am awaiting the return of Ricardo Divila to France so that we can reestablish the debate the about of what they were Equipe Fittipaldi's projects in F1.
rgds

[John-w]

Hello,

here is my latest model the Copersucar Fittipaldi FD-04 in scale 1/20th,
here some photos.













Thanks again to ibsenop for the detailed photos.

More photos on my homepage

http://www.john-w.de/models/news.htm

John-w

[macoran]

Superb modelling John !
And the sceneries you have photgraphed them in are no less impressive.

[David M. Kane]

Good show John!

[RDV]

Superb models John-w, nice touch on the skirts!

[Arjan de Roos]

Originally posted by John-w
Hello,

here is my latest model the Copersucar Fittipaldi FD-04 in scale 1/20th,
here some photos.



More photos on my homepage

http://www.john-w.de/models/news.htm

John-w

Is that Emmo on the left? ;-)

[Paulo Coimbra]

Peter, hello!
Ricardo Divila wants to enter in contact with you. He wanted you to send an e-mail but he didn't find your electronic address.
Pass for my paulo.coimbra@oi.com.br and I review for him, ok?
rgds

[PeterElleray]

Originally posted by Paulo Coimbra
Peter, hello!
Ricardo Divila wants to enter in contact with you. He wanted you to send an e-mail but he didn't find your electronic address.
Pass for my paulo.coimbra@oi.com.br and I review for him, ok?
rgds

paulo - excelent! please check your email, i have inclded my personnal email there, you can pass that to Richard. Weve brushed shoulders in pit lanes in recent years but never actually met. looking forwards to this.

rgds

Peter

[Paulo Coimbra]

Ok Peter!
Ricardo has been showing if a Very good person!
I imagined that it goes like this, it only lacked even the confirmation why it had not still contacted him.
rgds

[Ruairidh]

Just a note to say how much I'm enjoying this thread.

Peter - I am not enough of an engineer to assess some of the thinking here. I am interested in your comments about Ralph Bellamy, mainly because of his role re: the Lotus T76 and how unsuccessful that car was. Any parallels here?

[Paulo Coimbra]

Peter, can we retake the discussion on Fittipaldi's cars?
I learned how to place images in ImageShack...
rgds

[Paulo Coimbra]

See that group!

[Paulo Coimbra]

FD-01/02 with a different front that had a small front radiator. He/she/you never got to run.

FD-04 being recuperated at the workshop.

Edited by Paulo Coimbra, 30 April 2009 - 19:33.

[Paulo Coimbra]

[RDV]

In portuguese, but a serious number of photos=
http://www.bestlap.c...p;postorder=asc

Edited by RDV, 30 May 2009 - 11:55.

[ghinzani]

How many of the final F9s did they make?

[Paulo Coimbra]

How many of the final F9s did they make?

Hi, Ghinzani!
It was just manufactured a chassis F9, in agreement with my researches in Sport Auto (Bilan/Dec/82)
rgds
Paulo Coimbra

[John-w]

Hello,

here are some photos from Iritani’s re released Fittipaldi FD-01 in scale 1/20th.
The kit includes decals for the GP Argentina 1975.

Here are some photos.








John-w

[ghinzani]

Hi, Ghinzani!
It was just manufactured a chassis F9, in agreement with my researches in Sport Auto (Bilan/Dec/82)
rgds
Paulo Coimbra

Thanks Paulo, ties up with what Allen has on his site. Wonder where it went to?