42 replies to this topic

[Tenmantaylor]

The decision was made long ago by Mercedes to sell an engine supply to the struggling remnants of the Honda team for 2009. Had they known the Brawn was going to outshine their main partner McLaren so convincingly come Melbourne would they do the same again?

[nickponty]

Of course they would - the Mercedes name is winning races, they're getting great PR and getting paid for it!

[F1 Truth]

The only thing they might be regretting is not having the Mercedes star and "Powered by Mercedes-Benz" label on the Brawn.

[jeze]

Originally posted by F1 Truth
The only thing they might be regretting is not having the Mercedes star and "Powered by Mercedes-Benz" label on the Brawn.

It's never too late to paste a little logo on the engine cover ;)

[Tomerell]

I think that Ferrari regret's it did not sell the enfgines to Brawn, when asked for...

[howardt]

Originally posted by Tomerell
I think that Ferrari regret's it did not sell the enfgines to Brawn, when asked for...

I understood that Brawn rejected Ferrari engines. They were Ross' first choice, but didn't fit well into the car.

[lustigson]

Originally posted by F1 Truth
The only thing they might be regretting is not having the Mercedes star and "Powered by Mercedes-Benz" label on the Brawn.

That was my thought as well. And I reckon Sir Richard Branson would've loved to have Virgin all over the drivers' overalls, since they were all over today's papers.

[Buttoneer]

Mercedes had three podium finishes. They are more than happy with that sort of result.

[Phucaigh]

No one regrets being associated with winners.

[27GV]

When was the last time all Mercedes powered cars took the podium?

[anthony says]

Even after a levelling of the diffuser playing field, Brawn-Mercedes are going to be in with a chance of world titles and McLaren-Mercedes could be in mid-field. Yes of course the Mercedes Benz board are going to be pleased that their engine is leading the WCM, especially as it is in a make of chassis that looked hopeless when it had a Honda engine.

[lustigson]

Originally posted by 27GV
When was the last time all Mercedes powered cars took the podium?

I read something about Moss leading Fangio and 2 other Mercedes drivers to a 1-2-3-4 some time in 1954-55.

[trenchcoat]

Regret? They get millions for it. If they did not suppl, they would still be beaten and have a few millions less. Mercedes are here to promote their brand and having being associated with Brawn is a huge bonus.

[wingwalker]

Are they regretting that it's proven that their engine is capable of winning GP's in 2009? Sure, totally. Every engine manufacturer would regret that, it's midfield what matters for these guys

[Tenmantaylor]

Originally posted by howardt


I understood that Brawn rejected Ferrari engines. They were Ross' first choice, but didn't fit well into the car.

Brawn himself has mentioned that a few times. The Merc was easier to package and hang the gearbox/susp/diffuser off.

[Dalek Caan]

Norbert Haug: "The Customer is King at Mercedes"

[pingu666]

odd mix of success and self ownage at the same time actully

1-2-3 is pretty awsome success

customer cars beating your works wdc driven entry is self ownage xD


id guess at the lack of merc branding on the car is possibly because of honda, a agreement the team races "plain" car

[gerry nassar]

I dont think Mercedes regrets it but Mclaren sure wouldnt like it.

[engel]

lack of branding is a purely money issue, space on the cars costs money and Brawn isn't about to pay Mercedes full price for their engines and the privilege of a mercedes badge on their cars. Much like RB/TR, if Mercedes cuts the price on the engines they ll get a a powered by mercedes benz sticker on the Brawn cars .

And no, I don't think they would "regret" it, they'd certainly prefer a Mercedes powered Brawn winning than a Ferrari/Renaul/BMW/Whatever powered Brawn winning.

[DEVO]

Can somebody post details as to why Ferrari engines were not chosen? I thought Mercedes was Brawn's only option as nobody was willing to sign a contract so near the start of the season.

[wingwalker]

Originally posted by DEVO
Can somebody post details as to why Ferrari engines were not chosen? I thought Mercedes was Brawn's only option as nobody was willing to sign a contract so near the start of the season.

Search google and Autosport archieve: Brawn many times that the reason for choosing Mercedes engine was it was more like Honda engine shape and size wise, therefore it was far easier to put into the car designed for Honda engine.

[engel]

No ferrari was the initial "proffered" engine deal due to Brawn's ties with Ferrari, but he decided the Merc engine integrated better with the Honda derived gearbox and fit the car better.

“Both Ferrari and Mercedes-Benz were exceptional in the support they offered, but it came down to the fact that the Mercedes-Benz engine fitted our chassis more easily than the Ferrari engine. Once we made that decision around Christmas time, the Mercedes-Benz people were fantastic in supporting the project,” added Brawn.

from march 10th ^^ it's been reported on pretty much all the motor racing sites

[pingu666]

i think the blocks are core components are pretty much the same now for all f1 engines, so its more just where the stuff connects, mounting points etc...

[DEVO]

Originally posted by wingwalker


Search google and Autosport archieve: Brawn many times that the reason for choosing Mercedes engine was it was more like Honda engine shape and size wise, therefore it was far easier to put into the car designed for Honda engine.

Ok. Thanks

[Matt Somers]

The Mercedes engine was used as it was a better retro fit to the car than the Ferrari engine. Ross was most concerned to have the Honda gearbox (as changing to the Ferrari/McLaren one would have meant a redesign that would have eliminated the rear diffuser/downforce funnel setup ;))

As for Mercedes i'm sure they are loving the situation, with increased exposure and they are being paid by the teams to supply their engines.... Be interesting if Mercedes decided to buy a stake in BGP too ;) I believe its a 45% shareholding in McLaren they have?

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by lustigson

I read something about Moss leading Fangio and 2 other Mercedes drivers to a 1-2-3-4 some time in 1954-55.

British GP at Aintree 1955: Moss - Fangio - Kling - Taruffi.

They also had a 1-2-3 in the non-championship Berlin GP at AVUS in 1954: Kling - Fangio - Herrmann.

[RoutariEnjinu]

What's better for Mercedes:

1) Mercedes engined cars since 18k RPM rev-limit all being at back (What would have happened if they didn't offer Brawn engines, or Brawn's car was sub-par)

2) Mercedes engined cars dominating at the front.

[wewantourdarbyback]

That 'Powered by Merc' logo will be adorning the side of the car faster than you can say McLaren.

[ForeverF1]

Originally posted by RoutariEnjinu
What's better for Mercedes:

1) Mercedes engined cars since 18k RPM rev-limit all being at back (What would have happened if they didn't offer Brawn engines, or Brawn's car was sub-par)

2) Mercedes engined cars dominating at the front.

That is a difficult question.....OK, I'll take a punt on 2...

[tkulla]

I think Pingu666 is probably right - Brawn GP is likely contractually prevented from running a "powered by Mercedes" graphic on the car. I guess we'll know soon, because it's a no-brainer for MB to toss a few million to Brawn for it if they can.

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor
The decision was made long ago by Mercedes to sell an engine supply to the struggling remnants of the Honda team for 2009. Had they known the Brawn was going to outshine their main partner McLaren so convincingly come Melbourne would they do the same again?

For sure, they get money and wins, why not? Better it's Brawn Mercedes than Brawn Ferrari ;)

I'm not sure McLaren is very happy about it though.

Originally posted by tkulla
I think Pingu666 is probably right - Brawn GP is likely contractually prevented from running a "powered by Mercedes" graphic on the car.

Why would they run Mercedes branding if they are not getting paid for it ;)

[Tenmantaylor]

Originally posted by micra_k10


Why would they run Mercedes branding if they are not getting paid for it ;)

Weird that. Unless Honda forbid it, you'd think Brawn would be happy to get cheaper engines and put the Merc stickers on. Maybe even a http://www.ashford-m...-badge-car2.gif. Maybe FIA would condemn it as a winglet.

[windoesnot]

i know the staff at merc get the same bonus no matter which car ends up winning. they were certainly all very, very pleased with the 1-2-3

[Buzaglo]

I read that Force India had to okay the deal as they were Merc's designated customer. And Mallya to his credit did so, so that a tenth team could join the grid.

So Merc has to do a balancing act between Brawn, McLaren and Force India; and Brawn owe Force India a small favour.

I wonder if some Brawn technology will filter down to Force India as a result through their Merc links, or should I get real?

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor
Weird that. Unless Honda forbid it, you'd think Brawn would be happy to get cheaper engines and put the Merc stickers on.

Mercedes doesnt have unlimited budget. Maybe the are happy for Brawn winning for them and paying for the engines?

[BootLace]

Originally posted by pingu666
customer cars beating your works wdc driven entry is self ownage xD

I think the key point here is that it's a customer engine, not car. I'm sure there'd be a certain amount of embarrassment if Brawn were running 2nd hand McLarens and still winning, but this isn't the case.

[Melbourne Park]

I am a bit dubious about the MB plant being a better fit than the Ferrari unit. Afterall, RBR use a Renault and a Ferrari plant - they have managed to package both power plants. Recall with RBR, that Newey did not want the Ferrari power plant in the RBR - he much prefered the Renault unit. Heating was one of the significant issues too - but more I think his preferance was related to support. I think when the Ferrari engine overheated in the RBR, Ferrari were not very helpful in resolving the issues.

So maybe Brawn picked what he thought was the best engine. Maybe the MB unit was very similar to the Honda plant - but I suspect there might have been a bit more to it.

[Timstr11]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
I am a bit dubious about the MB plant being a better fit than the Ferrari unit. Afterall, RBR use a Renault and a Ferrari plant - they have managed to package both power plants. Recall with RBR, that Newey did not want the Ferrari power plant in the RBR - he much prefered the Renault unit. Heating was one of the significant issues too - but more I think his preferance was related to support. I think when the Ferrari engine overheated in the RBR, Ferrari were not very helpful in resolving the issues.

So maybe Brawn picked what he thought was the best engine. Maybe the MB unit was very similar to the Honda plant - but I suspect there might have been a bit more to it.

It had to do with external engine dimensions, crank height etc. of the MB engine, relative to the Honda/Brawn gearbox.
Not so much with the intrinsic characteristics of the engine.
Barrichello said the difference in crank height with the MB was only 8mm, a gap that was easier to bridge.

[giltkid]

I think we'll get some idea of how closely Merc and Brawn are working together by following closely how quickly and how well Brawn sort out their 'Achilles' heel - the gearbox. Because of the switch from Honda to Merc mills they are having to lubricate the gearbox separately from the engine. A solution to this will surely need a lot of input from Mercedes...

[Madras]

Originally posted by Buzaglo
I read that Force India had to okay the deal as they were Merc's designated customer. And Mallya to his credit did so, so that a tenth team could join the grid.

So Merc has to do a balancing act between Brawn, McLaren and Force India; and Brawn owe Force India a small favour.

I wonder if some Brawn technology will filter down to Force India as a result through their Merc links, or should I get real?

Brawn owe Force India nothing.

[Madras]

Originally posted by giltkid
I think we'll get some idea of how closely Merc and Brawn are working together by following closely how quickly and how well Brawn sort out their 'Achilles' heel - the gearbox. Because of the switch from Honda to Merc mills they are having to lubricate the gearbox separately from the engine. A solution to this will surely need a lot of input from Mercedes...

They have been very reliable so far.

[fed up]

It's more of an embarrasment for McMerc that Brawn are practically thrashing the works team. It highlights the shortcomings of the works team rather than highlight the strengths of the engine separately

[Bernd Rosemeyer]

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor
The decision was made long ago by Mercedes to sell an engine supply to the struggling remnants of the Honda team for 2009. Had they known the Brawn was going to outshine their main partner McLaren so convincingly come Melbourne would they do the same again?

Certainly, they occupied the first three places, it can hardly get better.