39 replies to this topic

[sldizz]

It is believed that Michael Schumacher spent 2/3 of the race stuck in the 5th gear and finished second.
The problem occurred in the end of the lap 21 before the chicane where Michael was not able to switch down so he was to make his first pit.

Here is the first question:
How could Michael start from the pit using the 5th gear? Theoretically it is possible but practically...
He did it twice, by the way.

It is quite interesting to know something about the clutch construction on B194. Was it damping clutch or not? I think, Benetton used the sports clutch without dampers (as it was connected to semi-auto sequential gearbox)

There are also some more obvious moments:
Without the 6th gear Michael should have lacked about 15-25 mph of maximum speed.
Michael could not accelerate normally as 5th gear ratio differed from the 3rd gear ratio, didn't it?
The differential should have worked incorrectly in that situation, I believe.

On the other hand, it is considered that Michael's Ford Zetec was more suitable for that force-major situation as it is obvious that the engine with 8 cylinders has a wider range of optimal RPMs than V10 has.

After that he spent the whole race on a single gear.
The most striking is the fact:
the best lap using all 6 gears is 1.25.155 (lap 18)
the best lap using a single gear is 1.26.171 (lap 40)


Both lap-times are shown in the end of 1st and 2nd segment respectively.
I.e. we have the 1 second difference. How was it possible? What do the teams use gearboxes for if the difference between taut anf broken gearbox is just a second?

The explanation of that fact is quite vague. For example, it was said Michael used special tractions to reduce the lack of the pace. It seems very strange to me 'cause the only traction could help Michael - driving through the corners and chicanes

My own opinion is that Michael really had problems with his gearbox. But they were not permanent. The worst laps (about 1.30 and worse) could have been shown on the 5th gear really. But 1.26-1.28 times seem impossible to me.

There are also some questions that still have no answer:
1. When it became obvious Michael was in a trouble we saw a picture showing gear '5' and that Michael obviously slowed down. But about two laps later the situation improved (lap-time proved that) and Michael's telemetry was not shown till the end of the race. Why it happened so simultaneously? The most surprising for me was the fact that Michael was still able to race fast enough (1.26-1.28).
2. After the race it was said that Michael's telemetry was shown to some journalists who could not believe that. Another question: who were those guys who really saw that telemetry? 15 years passed but still we've got no information about those people.
3. The fact that when Michael was breaking before the chicane some sparkles of fire were visible which usually shows that the gears are switched down.

There are also some occasions when a racer has lost some gears:
a) Hill, Hungary'97 (got stuck in the 3rd gear and lost about 30 seconds on a single lap)
b) Montoya, Bahrain'04 (lost 7th gear and was losing about 2-3 seconds on every lap)
(if anyone remembers such events you are welcome)

Resources:
http://www.motorspor...sp?ID=351&FS=F1
http://www.grandprix.../gpe/rr553.html


http://wildsoft.ru/c...&id=57&y=199405 (here are shown the track configurations)
http://esminetzz.nar...90/94/94esp.htm (though this link is in Russian everyone can understand what is all about)

If anyone has got information about that event please write it down here

What interests me the most is that maybe any of you has some information about Benetton's gearbox, Ford Zetec engine and its mapping. I mean, pictures, photos, some technical details etc.

P.S. By the way, has anyone got any articles about Spain'94 (from AutoSport maybe)? It would be very interesting to know something new...

[Ray Bell]

Good to see someone has looked at the vagaries of this claim... let's hope we get some answers...

[JtP1]

Originally posted by sldizz
It is believed that Michael Schumacher spent 2/3 of the race stuck in the 5th gear and finished second.


P.S. By the way, has anyone got any articles about Spain'94 (from AutoSport maybe)? It would be very interesting to know something new...

I've got the highlights on tape and the car was definately stuck in the one gear. He certainly wasn't making gear changes. I think the same fault arose in Canada as they came stright in and changed the steering wheel, so they obviously knew where the fault lay by then.

[Greg Locock]

If he was really stuck in one gear than I also find it hard to believe it only cost him one second a lap. It renders the thread that will not die rather silly (or even sillier). If somebody can be bothered to create a wav of a lap with in car audio I'll pull the rpm off that.

[Bill Sherwood]

The mid-90's was when the F1 engines had their greatest spread of torque (or HP, shaddap!) so they would suffer less from losing the ability to pick different gears.
I remember when the Peugeot-engined cars were getting off the line remarkably well and when questioned as to why, they said that it was because they had a flat torque curve from about 4,000rpm to 16,000rpm.

I'd like to see those days again.

[imaginesix]

Originally posted by Greg Locock
If he was really stuck in one gear than I also find it hard to believe it only cost him one second a lap. It renders the thread that will not die rather silly (or even sillier). If somebody can be bothered to create a wav of a lap with in car audio I'll pull the rpm off that.

Will this do?

[Dmitriy_Guller]

I'm still incredulous. To be able to drive in one gear without significant loss of performance, you have to have an engine with a very flat power curve (not flat torque curve). I don't think any racing engine has such a power curve, there is no need to compromise the design of the engine to achieve it when you (usually) have a working six speed gearbox attached to it. Zetec-R may have been a very drivable engine compared to V10s, but it wasn't a DC motor.

[Chubby_Deuce]

Michael leaving the pits:

Definitely not in low gear at least.

[Stefan_VTi]

Could he have been taking it easy the first laps (eg, hey might have been able to be a lot faster than that 1.25 he set early in the race)?
He might have been one second away from his fastest lap, but way more of what he could really do.

[zac510]

A look at the track maps shows that the old track is probably far more flowing and the penalty for being stuck in 5th would not be as high compared to today's variant of the circuit.

[sldizz]

Originally posted by JtP1


I've got the highlights on tape and the car was definately stuck in the one gear. He certainly wasn't making gear changes. I think the same fault arose in Canada as they came stright in and changed the steering wheel, so they obviously knew where the fault lay by then.

Well, the problem is that I don't really think that you've got a video showing only Schumi's cockpit during the whole race. I admit he spent SOME laps stuck in a single gear. But I find it almost impossible to believe that it was about 40 laps. The car should have been unreally reliable, right?

[sldizz]

Originally posted by Stefan_VTi
Could he have been taking it easy the first laps (eg, hey might have been able to be a lot faster than that 1.25 he set early in the race)?
He might have been one second away from his fastest lap, but way more of what he could really do.

The question is why?
Michael preferred 2-pits strategy, especially in 1994, when his racing (not driving) ability was not so brilliant. So he needed to increase his advantage - that's why I consider he pushed as hard as it was possible. Another fact is that his time was being improved almost lap by lap which meant that the fuel was running uot lap by lap. If we consider that he had no reason to push he could have possibly drive in a same lap time (in 0.1-0.2 sec difference - we know, Michael was always great in clean driving). But he did not...

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by Dmitriy_Guller
there is no need to compromise the design of the engine to achieve it when you (usually) have a working six speed gearbox attached to it. .

Compromise what? You need a wide spread of torque, power whatever you want to call it many times in a lap in a race or rally car.

Some of you guys should get of your computers with your fancy math and actually do a few laps.

[Chubby_Deuce]

Originally posted by sldizz

The question is why?
Michael preferred 2-pits strategy, especially in 1994, when his racing (not driving) ability was not so brilliant. So he needed to increase his advantage - that's why I consider he pushed as hard as it was possible. Another fact is that his time was being improved almost lap by lap which meant that the fuel was running uot lap by lap. If we consider that he had no reason to push he could have possibly drive in a same lap time (in 0.1-0.2 sec difference - we know, Michael was always great in clean driving). But he did not...

Why were his first laps after the fault slower? I imagine the preferred line for his situation didn't come to him instantly, it would have taken a few laps to find lines that allowed him to keep the revs up while getting through the corner at a decent speed.

[Stefan_VTi]

Originally posted by cheapracer

Compromise what? You need a wide spread of torque, power whatever you want to call it many times in a lap in a race or rally car.

Some of you guys should get of your computers with your fancy math and actually do a few laps.

[x] check. Been there, done that... (Guller is right.) Move discussion here please.

/ontopic:

sldizz: You could be right, I didn't lookup every single laptime. But while Schumi was indeed not known for his racing skill he was known to be capable of driving like he's an average driver at best (call it 'safe mode') and then, if he needed, throw in a couple of blindingly fast laps... (sorry, can't seem to find it, but it was even quoted somewhere, I think it was about his testing performances)

[Ross Stonefeld]

Everyone always talks about the special line he took to keep the revs up. Wouldn't it be....the racing line? You know, the maximum radius through the corner? Carry the brakes stupidly late into the corner, carry massive mid-corner speed to the point where you're only picking up the gas at corner exit.

[Stefan_VTi]

The best example I can think of to see it yourself is going to your local kart track a couple of days before (so you can look wherever you want) a mayor event (championship races for instance) and watch the pretty large difference in lines a 100cc FA and an 125cc ICC shifter take (at a not to fast track they should lap not too far apart). The 100ccs will take smoother, more sweeping lines, the shifters will turn the kart more abruptly after braking, getting back on the power as early as possible.

[sldizz]

Originally posted by Chubby_Deuce


Why were his first laps after the fault slower? I imagine the preferred line for his situation didn't come to him instantly, it would have taken a few laps to find lines that allowed him to keep the revs up while getting through the corner at a decent speed.

I cannot really imagine what lines could help him to keep a pace just a second slower in a single gear. Maybe you can explain in to me?
Well, I've heard about those "different lines" for many times but still no one can explain or show me those lines, just some indistinct words...

[Chubby_Deuce]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Everyone always talks about the special line he took to keep the revs up. Wouldn't it be....the racing line? You know, the maximum radius through the corner? Carry the brakes stupidly late into the corner, carry massive mid-corner speed to the point where you're only picking up the gas at corner exit.

From my experiences it would seem like squaring off a corner would drop the revs down more than taking a gentler, even line. But then again to wing cars ever square off corners? If you watch the clip above he does seem to be taking wider lines than one normally would.

sldizz, I can't explain it to you. First off I'm a second rate bike racer and a non-existent engineer. Second, at the risk of offending you, I must say that it seems like you want to find a way to believe that this didn't happen. That's fine. I choose to believe that it did happen, which is no better or worse. But it's much easier to disprove something than it is to prove something. No amount of evidence posted here in favor, short of having Michael re-enact it or finding a full race onboard is gonna prove it. But all it would take is 1 instance of him shifting after that point to disprove it. It seems more worthwhile to find that 1 piece rather than sit around questioning the evidence supporting it.

[imaginesix]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Everyone always talks about the special line he took to keep the revs up. Wouldn't it be....the racing line? You know, the maximum radius through the corner? Carry the brakes stupidly late into the corner, carry massive mid-corner speed to the point where you're only picking up the gas at corner exit.

Different cars follow different racing lines, this is not a mystery. Schumacher's problem changed his car's handling characteristics enough that it was like a different car. Specifically, he didn't have to worry about optimizing traction out of the corner as he was no longer traction-limited under acceleration, but power-limited. So the old slow-in fast-out, early apex paradigm wouldn't be so beneficial. Rather he'd choose to keep his speed up and turn the car less going into the corner, and then use the exit to complete the turn where he would normally straighten out and give 'er juice.

Not that any of this explains his relatively strong pace, but there was something to be gained from choosing a different racing line.

[Madras]

In some tighter corners smoothly hitting the apex isnt actually the fastest way through the corner when you have gears to play with. You end up losing more speed but able to accelerate out of the corner sooner. But stuck in 5th you dont want to lose speed, so you have to smooth out the corners rather than attack them.

[Aubwi]

I think it has more to do with how close together the gears are than anything else. If 2nd gear and 6th gear aren't all that far apart then you won't get much advantage from being able to use the gears.

Might be interesting to compare Schu's lap time differences with Senna's when he got stuck in 6th gear at Interlagos in '91.

[Phineaslee]

Originally posted by Aubwi
I think it has more to do with how close together the gears are than anything else. If 2nd gear and 6th gear aren't all that far apart then you won't get much advantage from being able to use the gears.

Might be interesting to compare Schu's lap time differences with Senna's when he got stuck in 6th gear at Interlagos in '91.

Hi,

I agree with u in this context, It really needs more to do with how close we can get together the gears. Nothing more to do then. Anyways thanks for the post

[MikeTekRacing]

it doesn't really matter how close they are unless you are comparing two successive gears.
if you compare 2th and 6th the difference is pretty big no matter what ratios you are using.
was senna stuck in 6th gear? I think it's a little too long to exit a hairpin for instance

if i may say, schumi was pretty lucky....4th would have been way too short for the huge straight in barcelona and 6th way too long for the chicane and slow parts.
5th was probably the best gear to be stuck in

[sldizz]

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing
it doesn't really matter how close they are unless you are comparing two successive gears.
if you compare 2th and 6th the difference is pretty big no matter what ratios you are using.
was senna stuck in 6th gear? I think it's a little too long to exit a hairpin for instance

if i may say, schumi was pretty lucky....4th would have been way too short for the huge straight in barcelona and 6th way too long for the chicane and slow parts.
5th was probably the best gear to be stuck in

These words seem so familiar to me...
I've seen such opinion with the pretty same words though it was in Russian )))
McFly?

[Aubwi]

Well, the engines were very torquey in those days. I imagine even in the slowest corner on the track they would have used a very long 2nd gear, carrying much lower RPM's than they would have in the faster corners. Wheelspin being the limiting factor rather than torque or power. All speculation, of course.

[Kalmake]

You can see in the video that he is losing several seconds on that lap compared to Hill and is horribly slow coming out of 100kph corners. He obviously found a lower gear after a few laps.

Maybe he chose stay on 5th gear towards the end as a precaution, when his position was safe. Hill was probably cruising at this point too.

[MikeTekRacing]

Originally posted by sldizz

These words seem so familiar to me...
I've seen such opinion with the pretty same words though it was in Russian )))
McFly?

sorry, I am not from Russia, nor do I speak Russian

[gruntguru]

Well spotted sldizz. No inkling of Back to the Future, obviously a commie. Blighter had the rest of us fooled - what!

[phantom II]

What? Did you say communist? Who's a communist?

Originally posted by gruntguru
obviously a commie. Blighter had the rest of us fooled - what!

[gruntguru]

Originally posted by phantom II
What? Did you say communist? Who's a communist?

Settle PII. Put the rocket launcher down.

[German Tony]

Originally posted by Aubwi
Well, the engines were very torquey in those days. I imagine even in the slowest corner on the track they would have used a very long 2nd gear, carrying much lower RPM's than they would have in the faster corners. Wheelspin being the limiting factor rather than torque or power. All speculation, of course.

Add in the thought that somebody may have been able to control just such an engine in 5th by using a banned traction control system & we might be nearly there.

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by German Tony


Add in the thought that somebody may have been able to control just such an engine in 5th by using a banned traction control system & we might be nearly there.

Slither back to the Racers Comments forum. (unless it was a genuine technical comment, rather than a typical RCF MS/Ferrari slur in which it appears to be on the surface, then welcome).

[Ross Stonefeld]

TC when you're stuck in 5th gear? Really?

[desmo]

Yep, what I was thinking too. Don't think that "TC" is going to be much use stuck in 5th. Sometimes reading F1 fora I think making TC illegal must have given it mystical properties.

[German Tony]

The word "might" figures rather large in my comment IMO.

What I'd really like is an adequate explanation of this feat -'cos I don't buy the "Michael Schumacher had mythical powers in an F1 car" line. If that makes me a hate figure in this thread I'll go & play somwhere else.

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by German Tony
The word "might" figures rather large in my comment IMO.

What I'd really like is an adequate explanation of this feat -'cos I don't buy the "Michael Schumacher had mythical powers in an F1 car" line. If that makes me a hate figure in this thread I'll go & play somwhere else.

Nah the least of peoples thinking here is that anyone has mythical powers I just get a bit wary of new comers who are tainted over at RC or other forums.

Between them I think Aubwi, Kalmake and Imaginesix have pieced it together, it really is pretty much that simple. If you want to get mythical then it could be pointed out that MS did suffer from some good breaks sometimes, getting stuck in 5th at that track rather than another gear could be considered a good break but consider that that was within a bad break that it happened at all.

If you don't want to be a hate figure here theres a simple rule, don't mention torque or power

[Melbourne Park]

At first MS was a poor tester, because he would drive around a bad handling car. (He also at first did not see the point in testing) Hence when they changed the car, his times woudn't change. That's a poor tester for you. But he did improve at testing ... 

[Todd]

The word "might" figures rather large in my comment IMO.

What I'd really like is an adequate explanation of this feat -'cos I don't buy the "Michael Schumacher had mythical powers in an F1 car" line. If that makes me a hate figure in this thread I'll go & play somwhere else.

If you think it is because you don't buy Schumacher having mythical powers then you're dreaming. It is because you're ignorant.

[Scotracer]

Everyone always talks about the special line he took to keep the revs up. Wouldn't it be....the racing line? You know, the maximum radius through the corner? Carry the brakes stupidly late into the corner, carry massive mid-corner speed to the point where you're only picking up the gas at corner exit.

Or perhaps one could make use of the Go-Kart line ;)