249 replies to this topic

[Twin Window]

...were because of sights like this;


(Photo copyright Autosprint magazine. Which is more of a courtesy than they showed me, Alan Cox or Mark Windecker last year...)

The then Politoys team owner Frank Williams making the sandwiches for his mechanics in the paddock during the 1972 British GP at Brands Hatch, with (I think) his number two driver Carlos Pace looking over his shoulder monitoring the buttering!

Great times, sadly never to be repeated...

[BorderReiver]

Originally posted by Twin Window
...were because of sights like this;


(Photo copyright Autosprint magazine. Which is more of a courtesy than they showed me, Alan Cox or Mark Windecker last year...)

The then Politoys team owner Frank Williams making the sandwiches for his mechanics in the paddock during the 1972 British GP at Brands Hatch, with (I think) his number two driver Carlos Pace looking over his shoulder monitoring the buttering!

Great times, sadly never to be repeated...

You've misread that completely.

That's not lunch. Politoys was run on such a shoe-string they used half a loaf on each corner instead of Shock-Absorbers. Frank is evidently setting their stiffness by liberally applying margerine.

;)

[RStock]

Perhaps someone could help me with my fuzzy memory .

I recall sometime in the early 70's , there being a footrace competition held before a race , which I believe was a British GP .

Seems the name of it was "The Formula Zero" race , or something of the sort .

It was for crewmembers and drivers . I think I recall various forms of cheating , such as some jumping barriers and cutting corners , and I seem to remember Graham Hill competing on a motorcycle (for which he was disqualified) .

About the only thing I'm fairly certain of is that Frank Williams won the race .

Anyone else recall this ?

[rdrcr]

The number 1 reason F1 was great in the '70s ~

ACCESS!!

... after 1980, that word became ever so increasing difficult to come by. Now, it's extinct and gone with it, much of the enthusiasm of F1's fan base. (at least in the US anyway).



(without it, photos like Twinny's could have never been captured)

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by REDARMYSOJA

I recall sometime in the early 70's , there being a footrace competition held before a race , which I believe was a British GP

One could well have taken place there, but the event of that kind which springs to my mind took place at Monza in 1973. IIRC, James Hunt won it - or was at least a front-runner - and Frank was up there too, being the fitness fanatic he was [able to be] back then.

I should be able to find photos given the time; but you're right - it's another example of why it was a great period for the sport!

Originally posted by rdrcr

ACCESS!!

Oh, absolutely!

The very first ever 'F1 Paddock' was hastily arranged for the 1974 British GP at Brands Hatch, as a direct result of Jody Scheckter and his Tyrrell team having been threatened with 'destruction by fire' (or similar) in the lead-up to the race.

And from thereon-in it just got worse and worse...

[Gary C]

I have a photo, loaned to me by Team Lotus Buyer Luke Watson (he of the Team Lotus record fame) which shows him coming in second behind Frank Williams (I think). Yes, it was Monza, but don't know which year, 72 or 73 I think.

[john aston]

I have a picture of Frank Williams and Clay Regazzoni running around Silverstone on the evening before a GP- 79- before the great victory ? I agree about access but I think it was actuallly ok until late 80s- I also have a picture taken inside the Ferrari pit the night before GP of two mechanics working on the cars,Nobody minded as long as you behaved .There was also none of the pain in the ass secrecy involving everthing being boarded off or covered in sheets to avoid the average punter going home and knitting his own GP car......

[HDonaldCapps]

While the Music may have died in 1959, most of the Fun in motor racing, regardless of series, seems to have died during the Seventies.

This is not, forbid the thought, my expressing any notion regarding nostalgia, but simply a personal thought on how motor racing raced the ante during this period and there were tradeoffs along the way, with Fun -- using any number of often conflicting definitions of the term -- being among them.

They also had at least one footrace at Monza -- won by FW, and, I think, a bike race or two at a venue or two in the GP world in the early Seventies.

While not as complex and as on as grand a scale as it is today, motor racing on either side of the Atlantic was simpler but not simplistic, and less expensive but not cheap, more accessible but not completely open, and more Fun but not always.

One thing that distinguishes the Seventies from Today is that Mystery was still part and parcel of the racing scene. Information and news -- including gossip and speculation -- took time to travel and had to read from a printed page. Knowledge was imperfect and this led to some aspects of one's imagination being used. Plus, regardless of series, there was still a sense of involvement. A Barry or a Stu or a Don or a whoever could wind up being involved at some level in the sport.

But, I digress....

[Buford]

Great post Don. And another thing about the 70's. While we thought we knew a lot, so much I could lap Watkins Glen in a Mini Cooper faster than my hero Stirling Moss did in a F1 car a decade before, in reality we didn't know squat about vehicle dynamics. Hall and Donahue and Penske and Chapman were just then learning and beginning to apply the principles every Formula Vee club racer knows today. Racing was good because it followed the formula I have mentioned many times here. Good drivers in bad cars makes far better racing than bad drivers in good cars. All the cars were bad in the 1970s so we could tell who was good. And there was still a danger factor so not every pretty boy could do it and burn scars and a limp were still a badge of honor.

[RTH]

Perhaps, it isn't dead, its just resting !

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by RTH
Perhaps, it isn't dead, its just resting !

Richard, It is seriously dead. As in dead and gone. No doubt that "Fun" still exists in some respects in the motor racing world of today, but even the Seventies were, to be honest, less "Fun" than in the previous decade or so. It all came and went and I don't think we really appreicated it very much at the time. I know that I didn't. Today, Moxie only takes you so far, while at one time Moxie could take you a long way.... Don

[RTH]

Its a dull , dismal drizzly Sunday morning here Don , an attempt at a bit of humour in comparing motor sport with a Norwegian Blue !



You are of course right !! I had the best times in the 70s too.

[sterling49]

As a kid I used to wander around Brands and during practice breaks, the Paddock, and drool over the cars, particularly the green and yellow ones. My "early" races, allowed me the chance to watch and listen to snippetts of discussions, with the driver often sat, as they did, on the rear wheel of their car. Drivers in this pose often reached out for my autograph book and a offered a few kind words, as did Black Jack and NGH and, at a later race, John Watson. I admit to being somewhat apprehensive at approaching JC, but he gave me that broad smile, even though practice for him that day was not straightforward.........simpler times, less money, more innocent, great sportsmen and no "instant" news and pictures, word of mouth was important locally at Brands, and so effective.

Great photo of FW Twinny I watched his journey from the beginning and still root for the original team of racers

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
While the Music may have died in 1959, most of the Fun in motor racing, regardless of series, seems to have died during the Seventies.

This is not, forbid the thought, my expressing any notion regarding nostalgia, but simply a personal thought on how motor racing raced the ante during this period and there were tradeoffs along the way, with Fun -- using any number of often conflicting definitions of the term -- being among them.

They also had at least one footrace at Monza -- won by FW, and, I think, a bike race or two at a venue or two in the GP world in the early Seventies.

While not as complex and as on as grand a scale as it is today, motor racing on either side of the Atlantic was simpler but not simplistic, and less expensive but not cheap, more accessible but not completely open, and more Fun but not always.

One thing that distinguishes the Seventies from Today is that Mystery was still part and parcel of the racing scene. Information and news -- including gossip and speculation -- took time to travel and had to read from a printed page. Knowledge was imperfect and this led to some aspects of one's imagination being used. Plus, regardless of series, there was still a sense of involvement. A Barry or a Stu or a Don or a whoever could wind up being involved at some level in the sport.

But, I digress....

Once again Don hits the nail squarely on he head!

There was for me a sense of adventure when setting off to Monza or Spa. I was able to afford such trips by saving up and limiting my local motor racing trips. At the time F1 was it as far as I was concerned and the fact that you could wander into a paddock and chat to the drivers was nothing out of the ordinary.

Looking back on the '70s my only regret is not going to the Targa Florio but it just didn't look like value for money at the time!

[goffer]

Yeah, don't get me started !! I made the pilgrimage half way around the world to see the 1977, 78, and part of the 79 F1 seasons, and intermittently went to F2, sports cars, motorcycle GP's .... Mostly free camped at or near the circuits - Rouen, Pau, Zandvoort, Assen, Zeltweg / Osterriechring, full Nurburgring .... Would hang about the paddock on Thurs evening as the stars gathered, then Thur/Fri/Sat evening watch and talk to the mechanics in the pits/garages ......

At Zeltweg discovered a superb viewing spot above one of the under-track tunnels where by scrambling up and clinging onto chainmesh I could see over the armco and directly into the drivers eyes as they blasted out of the long C shaped curve in the centre of the circuit ..... intoxicating. Saw Ronnie win his last GP there which was special.

And back then the engines each had their own sound - the ubiquitous DFV, flat 12 Ferrari's and Afla's, V12 Matra's, BRM's and Alfa's, turbo V6 Renaults ...... a true soundtrack of engine music.

And down at Brands Hatch one day saw the Brabham fan-car testing, James Hunt running long, wide sidepods on an M26 as McLaren sought to understand / embrace ground effects, and Ronnie testing the first Goodyear radials.

I guess the fact that this was the era that I was witness to first hand makes it unsurpassable but .... the 70's were some seriously good times......

[JtP1]

Frank williams used to run the track at every GP. He was a running freak in those days.

The money race was Monza (75/76?)and I believe Marlboro put up some big money for it. So most of the drivers and fitness trainers turned out and Frank beat them all. The biggest problem he had was cashing the cheque. He was in the bank with his accountant talking to the manager. Frank had never had a personal account and asked the manager if he could open one with his cheque. Every time Frank opened the subject, the manager changed the subject. Eventually his accountant said "Frank just drop it. He's never going to give you another account."

Many years ago (1973), I was in Lola getting some surplus bits cheap. So while the chap was away getting them, I stuck my head in the hatch window for a look round. On the wall beside the hatch was a list which said "do not accept cheques from the following people". Top of the list was Frank Williams.

[john winfield]

Originally posted by BorderReiver


You've misread that completely.

That's not lunch. Politoys was run on such a shoe-string they used half a loaf on each corner instead of Shock-Absorbers. Frank is evidently setting their stiffness by liberally applying margerine.

;)

You might be right, BorderReiver, but I think Frank used wholemeal for the shock-absorbers.
The bread being buttered is for eating. Frank and Carlos are preparing a packed lunch for Henri Pescarolo, to tuck inside his cockpit on raceday, on the basis that he will more than likely destroy the March or Politoys out at the back of the circuit and will have time for a picnic. I think Henri used to share his sandwiches with the marshals. Carlos is just checking that Frank has enough moutarde de Dijon for the jambon. And plenty of Rillettes du Mans.
(Sorry, Henri, unfair. You were and are a mainstay of French motorsport but 1972, apart from Le Mans, wasn't I think one of your best years.)

[tom58long]

well why f1 were so great these days?

i.e. in 1973 we had four teams able to win a race - and there was always room for some sort of a backmarker win.

this is perhaps nearly the same situation as we have nowadays. but today you know on friday who is able to win on sunday. an nowadays it is mostly a question of strategy. in the seventies (up to 1987 i think) we had real racing!

the brawn-situation from today reminds me a little bit of the season-opening of 1979. ligier came in from - not really - nothing and it was excting surprising. we had not much of these moments in the last years.

so this is the "racy" argument - the other argument is: sweet memories.

tom

[DOF_power]

Originally posted by tom58long
well why f1 were so great these days?

i.e. in 1973 we had four teams able to win a race - and there was always room for some sort of a backmarker win.

this is perhaps nearly the same situation as we have nowadays. but today you know on friday who is able to win on sunday. an nowadays it is mostly a question of strategy. in the seventies (up to 1987 i think) we had real racing!

the brawn-situation from today reminds me a little bit of the season-opening of 1979. ligier came in from - not really - nothing and it was excting surprising. we had not much of these moments in the last years.

so this is the "racy" argument - the other argument is: sweet memories.

tom

The reason why 4 teams where able to win is because Lotus and Tyrell had reliability issues.

[JacnGille]

Originally posted by RTH
Perhaps, it isn't dead, its just resting !

After all, F1 cars prefer kippin' on their backs.

[PeterElleray]

Originally posted by DOF_power




The reason why 4 teams where able to win is because Lotus and Tyrell had reliability issues.

THREE teams actually won championship races in 1973 - Lotus (7), Tyrrell (5) and McLaren (3). The only other teams to actually lead a GP that year were , interestingly, BRM (Regazzoni, Argentine; Lauda and Beltoise, Canada) and Shadow(!) - (Oliver, Canada). Fittipaldi's Lotus retired three times with mechanical trouble ( Swedish, British, Austrian GP's), Peterson's five times. Stewart's Tyrrell retired once with mechanical problems (Spanish GP), otherwise he finished every race he started. Cevert finished every single race up to the austrian, where he collided with merzario, finished the italian in 5th and then again failed to finish in canada when he collided with scheckter.

the only significant unreliability was in peterson's car - during the first part of the season - and when that struck it usually handed the advantage to either teammate Fittipaldi or to one of the Tyrrell's...

are we thinking of 1974 perhaps?

peter

[RStock]

Originally posted by Twin Window

One could well have taken place there, but the event of that kind which springs to my mind took place at Monza in 1973. IIRC, James Hunt won it - or was at least a front-runner - and Frank was up there too, being the fitness fanatic he was [able to be] back then.

I should be able to find photos given the time; but you're right - it's another example of why it was a great period for the sport!

Originally posted by JtP1

The money race was Monza (75/76?)and I believe Marlboro put up some big money for it. So most of the drivers and fitness trainers turned out and Frank beat them all.

I'm sure you fellows are right it was at Monza . I'm working on distant memory , which is a dangerous thing for me . I'm pretty sure if it had been at a British GP , some of the Brits here would have a good memory of it .

About the main thing I remember is FW was involved , and I do seem to recall see Hunt , and being suprised he would take part , what with his reputation . I'm also pretty sure Graham Hill was present . And I don't recall it being a serious effort , at least on the part of some who participated , but , as I said about fuzzy memory .

I have the 1970-1976 F1 seasons on tape somwhere , and I believe there is something about this on one . I need to try and dig them out and take a look .

[Gary Jarlson]

At the first USGP at Long Beach in 1976, the cars were garaged in the rotunda of the convention center. A flimsy, chest-high barrier chain-link fencing was all that separated them from the ogling masses. We walked up to the McLaren enclosure following final Saturday qualifying just as the mechanics were bringing the cars in. There was Hunt on the fence line chatting up a couple of ladies next to us. "James, you turd," bawls out one of the mechanics. "Get your ass over here and help us." So there was soon-to-be world champion helping his guys put his car on high-stands. Or Jacky Ickxx excusing himself as his slipped through a break in the fence and asking for directions to the restrooms.

[tom58long]

Originally posted by DOF_power




The reason why 4 teams where able to win is because Lotus and Tyrell had reliability issues.

yeah -maybe. but that was racing. true racing.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Gary C

I have a photo, loaned to me by Team Lotus Buyer Luke Watson (he of the Team Lotus record fame) which shows him coming in second behind Frank Williams (I think). Yes, it was Monza, but don't know which year, 72 or 73 I think.

It was '73, Gary; here's a really poor photo from Autosprint in which James Hunt and Jackie Stewart are easily identifiable, although Frank appears to be missing - maybe he's already in the lead!

[ensign14]

Jackie even got sponsored for that.

[rdrcr]

Could that be Frank Williams on the right? It sort of looks like him (red shorts and black tank-top).

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by rdrcr

Could that be Frank Williams on the right? It sort of looks like him (red shorts and black tank-top).

I don't think so, Richard; I've seen other photos (but can't find them ) and also video footage and Frank was wearing a white Marlboro WCT t-shirt - similar to the bloke smack in the middle of the photo in fact.

[Arturo Pereira]

Hi

I think the main reason was that everybody in the circus looked and acted like humans. It did not matter if a world champion or a contender acted in a politically correct way, perhaps because PR BS was not ruling.

[RStock]

Originally posted by rdrcr




I doubt you're in the majority here - If you read the posts within this thread, many of them are centered around photographs taken or about overhearing people who made the racing happen by being in very close proximity to the action - that's called *access* man. They have those memories one way or another, be it by finagling their way in or, credentials or, whatever, the folks got a real taste of the action. For my friends and I, we took it all in with relish and for some of us, that was the spark that took us from the grandstands to the driver's seat.

The best of times: Standing in the Kendall Garage holding a frosty cold Genesee Cream Ale and from 5 feet away, listening to James Hunt chat with Teddy Mayer and the crew about the set up on the McLaren. If that's being a "fan boy" - oh well... count me in.

Well said Richard .

I was wandering around in pits from around 10 years old , and being that close to the drivers and cars is something that cannot be appreciated sitting in the stands . We all knew the danger and assumed the risks ourselves .

And I remember witnessing a similar conversation between John Andretti and Little Al , who were exchanging opinions on track conditions . That one stands out because I was sitting on a table stuffing my face with a hotdog when Little Al sat at the other end and Andretti happened by and struck up a conversation . It gives you that feeling of an insider , and is something you take with you forever .

It's sad not many get those sorts of chances today .

[john winfield]

Originally posted by Twin Window

I don't think so, Richard; I've seen other photos (but can't find them ) and also video footage and Frank was wearing a white Marlboro WCT t-shirt - similar to the bloke smack in the middle of the photo in fact.

Twinny,
I'm pretty sure that's Jacky Ickx in the longer shorts and dark socks.

[ralt12]

Originally posted by rdrcr



The best of times: Standing in the Kendall Garage holding a frosty cold Genesee Cream Ale and from 5 feet away, listening to James Hunt chat with Teddy Mayer and the crew about the set up on the McLaren. If that's being a "fan boy" - oh well... count me in.

Hhmmmm....I was the guy standing next to you with the Utica Club Cream Ale......a little harder to get, but it was great....

[Pablo Vignone]

Why was so great? Reason is plain simple to me: same engine, same gearbox for 90 per cent of the grid, no refuelling, no mandatory tyre changes, real challenging circuits (with the exception of Nivelles and Zolder in place of Spa) and maybe the greatest bunch of best racing drivers. But, of course, you can disagree.

[Rob Ryder]

Found on the web sometime...



Rob

[gio66]

Amazing thread!



Thank you all.

[COUGAR508]

Originally posted by Pablo Vignone
Why was so great? Reason is plain simple to me: same engine, same gearbox for 90 per cent of the grid, no refuelling, no mandatory tyre changes, real challenging circuits (with the exception of Nivelles and Zolder in place of Spa) and maybe the greatest bunch of best racing drivers. But, of course, you can disagree.

The variety of chassis designs and the diverse personalities of the drivers (and team managers and designers) are what make Seventies F1 so enduringly fascinating for me.

[fines]

Originally posted by ensign14
Jackie even got sponsored for that.

And isn't it Ole Chopper in the other "Elf team" shirt?

As for accessibility, I recall being nearly run over (well, my right foot at least) by Nigel Mansell, and the icy stare I received courtesy of Frank Williams during my one and only stroll along a busy F1 pitlane, during final qualifications no less. Yes, I did have no business there, I was just a 15-year-old kid enjoying a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, but I was a FAN, an ENTHUSIAST. Today, the pit and paddock area is as crowded as ever, but the people standing in the way today are mostly clueless celebs. Progress?

[gio66]

Originally posted by fines
[B]
And isn't it Ole Chopper in the other "Elf team" shirt?

I think you're right.

[Spitfire]

Originally posted by fines

And isn't it Ole Chopper in the other "Elf team" shirt?

and possibly Ronnie over his right shoulder in the dark shorts/socks, white running shoes?

[Paul Parker]

The ability to stroll around unfettered in the paddock and pits on a warm summer night at Silverstone watching from close to the mechanics fettle the F1 cars before the GP the following day in the '70s.

Getting Regga's signature directly after his '79 Silverstone victory in the paddock as he walked by, imagine trying to do that now!

[gio66]

Originally posted by Spitfire


and possibly Ronnie over his right shoulder in the dark shorts/socks, white running shoes?

Maybe I'm wrong but I think Ronnie was watching the race from the roof of the "John Player film unit" (2nd picture).

[sterling49]

Originally posted by gio66


Maybe I'm wrong but I think Ronnie was watching the race from the roof of the "John Player film unit" (2nd picture).

Do you mean the guy with the heavy specs? If so, I was not aware that he wore them

[Alan Cox]

Could some of the reasons why it was so great be these.......

All from Brands 1974, courtesy Tim Blackburn

Lotus team-mates Ickx and Peterson


Regga

Tom Pryce

[alansart]

Originally posted by Alan Cox


Could some of the reasons why it was so great be these.......

Tom Pryce

.....and it was also a time when one could still stroll around the paddock and look at the cars

Tom Pryce's spare Shadow.




Team talk at Ferrari.

[gio66]

Originally posted by sterling49


Do you mean the guy with the heavy specs? If so, I was not aware that he wore them

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but maybe he wore Polaroid sunglasses (watching at the shadows it seems late afternoon). For me he looks like Ronnie.

[David M. Kane]

Current F1 is a lot like our current road cars, loaded up with a bunch of features we don't want and we really don't need.

I too was one of the lucky ones who got to go Watkins Glen in the '70s for the USGP; and where you actually could talk to everyone and actually look at the cars up close. A few years ago I went to Indy for the USGP. You couldn't get within a 100 yards of the cars. What a waste of time and what of waste of money.

In fact I'm please to say I have given all of color photos to the Research Center in Watkins Glen.

Now we've got Liegate, Stepneygate, Diffusergate and boringgate.

[rdrcr]

For me and my fellow race goers, it was the competition found and enjoyed in that era, and I suppose, it was for many, the absence of dominance that has the '70s as interesting as any other in the modern era.

Over that decade, IIRC, we saw Lotus, Ferrari, Tyrrell and McLaren all take the Championships with only Stewart repeating twice with same team. Emmo did it as well, but he was with Lotus in '73 and then McLaren in '74 (a shewed team move IMHO), to grab those back-to-back championships. Even the ones that filled the field were interesting, if not exciting as in 1976, with the Ligier with its fabulous, screaming Matra V12, the Alfa Romeo and its flat-twelve howling away - both, competing against the sonic virtuosos of Ferrari's flat-12.

I cannot recall if each and every year was close - other than the obvious; the scant 5 point WDC posthumous victory of Rindt over Icks in 1970 and Lauda's near repeat in '76 when Hunt won by a narrow margin, then to have Lauda reclaim the title in '77 was quite a story in itself. Perhaps those with better memories or a bit more time to research could reveal how close the WDC / WCC margins were within each year over that decade.

Again, I don't know if all of them were that close but, the racing, with all of the different cars and drivers were certainly wonderful to watch. That decade was filled with color, diversity, intrigue, tragedy and great stories of overcoming adversity. It was great to be a part of it - that's not nostalgia, just fact.


Edited to suit recent thread "adjustments"

[PCC]

To the many good reasons already given, I would add that the cars were harder to drive but easier to race (aero not being all-conquering as it is now), and that the spectators who came to the track were considered to be at least as important as those who watched on TV.

[PeterElleray]

Originally posted by DOF_power




I didn't say entirely, and didn't say the from then on it was a Renaissance. What I meant, that the lack of professionalism was horrific, not to mention the lack of wind-tunnels and Co .

Yeah it was dreadful - we didnt know how to cope with not being able to not get the wind tunnel we didnt have to correlate with the CFD that hadnt been invented which in turn gave different answers to the 'track data' we didnt get and every single night we'd go back to the hotel ( or tent) rueing the fact that we didnt have an army of data engineers to sort it all out - or not.

We didnt have the tools we have now - but if i were you i'd be a bit more cautious about using emotive phrases like 'lack of professionalism'.. you match your engineering integrity to the tools at your disposal at the time.

ten years earlier they were working on slide rules ...

Oh , and by the way, the music was better then aswell.

discuss.

[sterling49]

Originally posted by PeterElleray



Oh , and by the way, the music was better then aswell.

discuss.