70 replies to this topic

[ivanalesi]

I don't see much point in their sport, it's like figure skating for race cars, but the technological challenge seems interesting to me. They're getting very popular, Formula Drift has the big 3 and Red Bull officially involved!
We've got cars who should go at as much yaw angle as possible, even on the straights and yet they've got to be somewhat fast. So, what do you reckon would be the ideal car for the job, in terms of weight distribution, aerodynamics and suspension layout?
Most of these cars look like a normal racing car, with some setup work, special tyres and that's it. Yet they are not going to be used as normal. They even have diffusers and I don't know if they are working at all!

Here's a small video with some technical data:

And a link with aero details picture gallery: http://www.autoblog....-coupe/1487724/

[Bill Sherwood]

The best car is a rental car.

Drifting =/= racing = don't care.

[Paolo]

Formula Drift is more of a Style competition than proper racing.
The cars would lap a lot faster if they were not drifting, but the system awards points for drift angle, smoothness etc.

Anyway, I'd love to see drifting in real races, where just laptime counts.
It is quite simple to obtain it: skinny, cross ply, hard tyres, RWD and power enough.
Wonder why nobody does it.
I would be an avid fan, personally.

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by Bill Sherwood
The best car is a rental car.

Been watching Jackass Bill?

Actually I sat with my brother watching the idiot box and flicked over to some drifting recently and he raised some interesting points when I mentioned "turn it over".

Besides the nonsense that it is, Drifting has what Paolo is heading at, it's got tyre/engine noise, cars in yaw, driving skill that can be seen and all within a contained area - it has the ingrediants that motorsport has mostly lost.

Drifting deserves to be popular based on what 'real' motorsport has done to itself.

What a sad state.

[ivanalesi]

It's boring for me, it just has some "uber cool underground image" and that's all. It will get very competitive, then very expensive and it will die. I call it figure skating on tarmac, and I'm not even remotely interested in the competition, but just curious what would make a great car for such use?
Considering that people like cars going a bit sideways(I guess not as much as these), it should be interesting for rule makers to make the rules and cars more sideways:)

[cheapracer]

I suggest you search Youtube for the "well known in Drift circles" Porsche.

I can't help you because China has had all Youtube banned for a couple of weeks now.

[Greg Locock]

2 words

Sprint cars

800 hp

continual drift

close racing

[Peter Leversedge]

I do not see the sense in "drifting" a car if it does not improve your lap times therefore I think "drift racing" is a waste of time and I am not interested in it
I used to race a sprint car [for 25 years] and sideways through the turns meant faster lap times. REAL RACING

[gruntguru]

I think its the worst part of "Top Gear" - watching those morons drifting and cutting donuts in expensive sports cars. Its always good to see the Stig drive some tidy lines in the same car - shows what going quick is really all about.

[Bill Sherwood]

This might be a good time to start a thread (or continue this one?) on at what point the car starts to benefit from getting some sideways attitude. Rally cars certainly do, as do Speedway, etc. Can't recall seeing any circuit racers that do though.
Where's the crossover point?

[Greg Locock]

Isn't drifting just a new term for opposite lock, power on? I remember old Rosberg winning a wet Monte Carlo opposite locking around one hairpin for lap after lap. Whereas on a kart in the dry OLing is easy, fun and VERY slow.

It might be worth trying to draw the contact patch forces for a RWD car in understeer and then while drifting, I remember there is some subtlety as to what is going on, and that trying to get all the forces pointing in the right directions was difficult.

[gruntguru]

Originally posted by Bill Sherwood
This might be a good time to start a thread (or continue this one?) on at what point the car starts to benefit from getting some sideways attitude. Rally cars certainly do, as do Speedway, etc. Can't recall seeing any circuit racers that do though.
Where's the crossover point?

The crossover point IMHO is when the tarmac stops and the dirt begins.

[ivanalesi]

Yes, but that's not the point. The point is how you make a car slide a bit, so that it's visible to the public, and go fast at the same time. These drift competitions are also for speed, they look at the yaw angle achieved and the speed at which you achieved it. So the faster the speed you achieve while drifting at X degrees, the better your score will be.

[zac510]

So fair enough, you still need a vehicle equipped for the job.

but just curious what would make a great car for such use?

I haven't looked at a drift car for many years but last time I did they were so heavily modified away from a normal road or race car in the area of suspension, steering and tyres that you'd have to say that the best car for the job would be a bespoke one!

[Kalmake]

Originally posted by Paolo
Anyway, I'd love to see drifting in real races, where just laptime counts.
It is quite simple to obtain it: skinny, cross ply, hard tyres, RWD and power enough.
Wonder why nobody does it.
I would be an avid fan, personally.

Me too.

In a Race of Champions they used gravel tires on tarmac. I'm not sure how long they would last, though.

I recall Timo Salonen describing how a Group B rally car would "float" even on tarmac stages.

It's a shame that tires have become so good over the years.

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by Kalmake



It's a shame that tires have become so good over the years.

Not just the tyres, asphalt has come forward in large strides too. I haven't a clue (many of you would like me to stop right there ) but I surmise that Bernie has a specific mix that track owners have to follow for consistency.

[Rosemayer]

Remember when?

[Tony Matthews]

Originally posted by cheapracer
I haven't a clue (many of you would like me to stop right there )

STOP! Just stop right there!

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by Tony Matthews


STOP! Just stop right there!

Ha, no chance - you have been warned

[RoutariEnjinu]

Drifting is missing the point.

Over-steer, and managing it is awesome, exactly because it's something a car is likely to do when on the limit of going fast.

Drifting is missing the point, because the car isn't going fast. It's not a side-effect of something more beautiful, but is cheaply induced and bastardised to appeal to the people ignorant to why sideways was beautiful in the first place.

It should be rated with number cards held above judges heads at best. It's pointless, and cheap to try and dignify it as some kind of race with the head-to-head bollocks.

Drifting is fast-in, slow-out. It's wrong. Don't do it.

[slideways]

It's awfully fun though isn't it (oversteer).

[Powersteer]

Designer drift mobile would have long wheelbase, front heavy rear wheel drive without a differential with a lot of power on narrow rear wheels to the front ones. Long wheelbase makes it hard to snap but much less snappy when it is already sideways. Lightweight low grip rear end with high horsepower will loosen the back end and make it very controllable under throttle.

Personally not a fan.

[Gregor Marshall]

Why can't you win going sideways?
Remember, tyres were a lot harder in the 60/70s than they are now and sideways was the only to get them round a bend or get some heat in them.

[gruntguru]

Why can't you win going sideways?

You're not talking about F1 are you? The slicks used on F1 cars develop maximum cornering force at very small slip angles (<3deg IIRC) and cornering force is much lower if the tyre starts sliding.

[Greg Locock]

However, when you are drifting you are using more of the longitudinal grip of the rear tires, not the lateral grip.

Edited by Greg Locock, 31 May 2009 - 02:01.

[gruntguru]

However, when you are drifting you are using more of the longitudinal grip of the rear tires, not the lateral grip.

Then you start talking about slip % rather than slip angle and the optimum is still very small (<5% IIRC). Funny, I find myself saying again in a different thread "wheel slip not wheelspin"

[Powersteer]

However, when you are drifting you are using more of the longitudinal grip of the rear tires, not the lateral grip.

Like rally tyres? Like driving a hovercraft? Never knew it applied on tarmac but it would have to I guess, very interesting.

[Peter Leversedge]

Take a look at post 94 in the Sprintcars thread to view a "drift"

[cheapracer]

Why can't you win going sideways?
Remember, tyres were a lot harder in the 60/70s than they are now and sideways was the only to get them round a bend or get some heat in them.

No, your talkng about rotating a car with an appropriate amount of mild wheelspin finding a balance between finding forward grip and allowing the rear to steer which sometimes turns into a slide - "sideways" was not wanted then as its not wanted now.

Its a lovely feeling when it happens right and you have little steering input.

[cheapracer]

Take a look at post 94 in the Sprintcars thread to view a "drift"

A link would be nice but in the meantime i'm enjoying your avitar!

[gruntguru]

Take a look at post 94 in the Sprintcars thread to view a "drift"

Somewhere here-

http://forums.autosp...w...ntcar&st=80

[scolbourne]

Would sprint cars be faster not drifting ?
Speedway bikes are in the same category. It appears to me that there are times when drifting is the fastest way through a corner. Track designers should design their tracks to bring this out.

[GrpB]

The sideways/non sideways debate will probably never end, my $.02: For turning a quick lap, sideways or not has little to do with the theory (suspension set up/line/car characteristics, etc.) and everything to do with subjective driver feedback and resulting comfort level. When you slide the rear you have (literally) at hand an immediate, effective, and controllable means of yaw and path correction, the steering wheel. When you slide the front it is usually at least partly a result of steering input, and therefore corrective actions are all relatively slow, ineffective, and difficult to control (reducing steering input, letting off the brakes, stepping on the gas, yanking the handbrake, waiting…). For many drivers there is a comfort level of "knowing where you're at", often evidenced by constant sawing at the wheel, pedaling the throttle, or inducing oversteer.

I think the reason vehicles on low mu surfaces go more sideways than vehicles on high mu surfaces has more to do with the lack of feel the front tires generate (changes in steering wheel torque as a result of loss of grip are almost imperceptible on snow for instance), as opposed to any inherent advantage to being sideways. It's tough to evaluate grip level from the front in low mu conditions and use that evaluation to control the car effectively when the front end gives little feedback, whereas evaluating/controlling yaw and vehicle line during an oversteer condition is pretty intuitive (trail will automatically tend to make the front wheels follow the actual path of the vehicle regardless of yaw angle, independent of steering input, and even on low mu). Oversteer is a pretty gross condition to sense, whereas minute changes in steering wheel torque are very difficult to sense.

I would suspect that for cars on low mu surfaces, the more grip the surface has, the more the good drivers are able to force the front end to carry more of the cornering load (without understeer), which probably allows for better longitudinal acceleration from the rear, as a result they are less sideways and better off the corner than slower cars.

On the original question, I like drifting, don't care whether it's called a sport because it's not racing, it's fun. Having some seat and development time in a big name drift car it's more difficult than it looks to carry the same angle and speed, and still hit all your marks, as one of those drivers. GPS data shows mid 0.8x g steady state, which is a pretty brisk pace given the extra work the drivers are performing as compared to trying for a quick lap time. And for development drivers get any bunch of them onto the same surface and speed/yaw will inevitably end up as a judged criteria for skill.

I suppose it's a little like trials riding for bicycles or motorcycles, it's not really racing, and in many instances it would be easier to leave the machine and just climb or walk, but that doesn't mean it's not fun to watch and it doesn't stop me from wishing I had the skills those guys have with their machines.

[gruntguru]

Would sprint cars be faster not drifting ?
Speedway bikes are in the same category. It appears to me that there are times when drifting is the fastest way through a corner. Track designers should design their tracks to bring this out.

Depends mostly on the surface. Sideways works best on dirt especially if you have big tyres, big grooves and big HP to throw lots of dirt outwards. Slicks on good tarmac deliver best traction at quite small slip angles.

[Gregor Marshall]

Jeez, you guys are missing something here big time - heat, grip and enjoyment!!
If you can't heat your tyres up then you won't get the grip you need.
Look at any "older" GP or saloon car race and there is no reason why you can't win going sideways.
The front tyres need some heat so you don't understeer but there's nothing wrong with a bit of lateral movement.

[DOF_power]

>
^ The current F1 racecars are over 4 meters long.
They'll just block even more if hey go sideways.
Even in Moto GP you can block by sliding the bike.





And that picture is before they introduced the new bigger/extended the minimum driver to car rear-end/rear crash structure dimensions.
So image that McMerc with a longer rear.

[Peter Leversedge]

Somewhere here-

http://forums.autosp...w...ntcar&st=80

Sprint cars are faster driven "sideways" racing on the dirt, On entry into the turn, it sets them up to get around the turn [remember they run locked rear ends] and scrubs off some of the speed if needed, but as you drive through the turn you straighten up so you are pointing straight l on the exit. if you are too sideways comming off the turn you would be scrubbing off speed. I can't say about racing a sprint car on tar seal as I have never done that but I would think driving one "side ways" would slow you down and very soon destroy your tyres

[gruntguru]

Jeez, you guys are missing something here big time - heat, grip and enjoyment!!
If you can't heat your tyres up then you won't get the grip you need.
Look at any "older" GP or saloon car race and there is no reason why you can't win going sideways.
The front tyres need some heat so you don't understeer but there's nothing wrong with a bit of lateral movement.

1. You can generate heat in the tyres without going sideways.
2. If you go sideways on asphalt with modern slicks you will go slower.

[Racer D]

4WD car are alot easyer to control sideways an also lose less speed in the corners even on tarmac i.e the reason why there used as rally cars but even rally cars go sideways on tarmac tracks take corsica for example in the harpins its hadbrake in throttle out because in these corners the 4wd system can genrate more grip an farward motion with the car side ways an the wheels spining than they can trying to take the corner smoothly there for they can enter the corner at a faster speed an get on the power earlyer for the exit most race cars could do this in harpins with out 4wd but most curcuits wont alow it an some will black flag you for dangerous driving but going back to rally an corsica even in the high speed corners they still have some sideway motion as you see them drop the front wheel off the tarmac an in to the rut on the side of the road but rear wheel dont follow all thanks to the 4wd..
there was a guy years back im talking 10 maybe or more who won a race in the jap gt500 by drifting the car round every corner lap after lap
an F1 car wont just lose tyre grip going sideway but downforce to dew to the angle of the wings and the end plats on them i think thats why most dift cars have the spoiler with the step up in the middle like the jap gt500 race cars so that they can produce some downforce while going sideways an they often dont have end plates. There are some buggy like things that go round on the speedway bike tracks that have masive spoilers with a big end plate one side but nothing the other in an atempt to force the air over the spoiler for downforce an better traction of back wheels while going sideways

[OfficeLinebacker]

4WD car are alot easyer to control sideways an also lose less speed in the corners even on tarmac i.e the reason why there used as rally cars but even rally cars go sideways on tarmac tracks take corsica for example in the harpins its hadbrake in throttle out because in these corners the 4wd system can genrate more grip an farward motion with the car side ways an the wheels spining than they can trying to take the corner smoothly there for they can enter the corner at a faster speed an get on the power earlyer for the exit most race cars could do this in harpins with out 4wd but most curcuits wont alow it an some will black flag you for dangerous driving but going back to rally an corsica even in the high speed corners they still have some sideway motion as you see them drop the front wheel off the tarmac an in to the rut on the side of the road but rear wheel dont follow all thanks to the 4wd..
there was a guy years back im talking 10 maybe or more who won a race in the jap gt500 by drifting the car round every corner lap after lap
an F1 car wont just lose tyre grip going sideway but downforce to dew to the angle of the wings and the end plats on them i think thats why most dift cars have the spoiler with the step up in the middle like the jap gt500 race cars so that they can produce some downforce while going sideways an they often dont have end plates. There are some buggy like things that go round on the speedway bike tracks that have masive spoilers with a big end plate one side but nothing the other in an atempt to force the air over the spoiler for downforce an better traction of back wheels while going sideways

Holy run on sentences, Batman!

[Tony Matthews]

Holy run on sentences, Batman!

Here, he can have some of my stops, I've got some spares!............................................................................
.......

[Racer D]

fair point

................................................................................
.................................................................................
.......

thanks for the stops!

[mahleu]

It would actually be interesting to see an F1 car on slicks vs a WRC car on a track during torrential rain...

[gruntguru]

It would actually be interesting to see an F1 car on slicks vs a WRC car on a track during torrential rain...

Could be close!

[cheapracer]

It would actually be interesting to see an F1 car on slicks vs a WRC car on a track during torrential rain...

Wouldn't be close these days even in the rain, the force to weight differences are just too great but I can tell you that in 1986 Lancia went testing with the Lancia Delta S4 Gr B rally car at Portugal GP track and Marku Alen ran a lap that would have put him 7th on the F1 grid that year.

Mind you the Gr B had some 600+hp.

[DOF_power]

Wouldn't be close these days even in the rain, the force to weight differences are just too great but I can tell you that in 1986 Lancia went testing with the Lancia Delta S4 Gr B rally car at Portugal GP track and Marku Alen ran a lap that would have put him 7th on the F1 grid that year.

Mind you the Gr B had some 600+hp.

That's just a myth.
Estoril had 2 courses, a short and long one (used in F1).

[DOF_power]

It would actually be interesting to see an F1 car on slicks vs a WRC car on a track during torrential rain...

Top Gear did a bit of a comparison.

[gruntguru]

Wouldn't be close these days even in the rain, the force to weight differences are just too great but I can tell you that in 1986 Lancia went testing with the Lancia Delta S4 Gr B rally car at Portugal GP track and Marku Alen ran a lap that would have put him 7th on the F1 grid that year.

Mind you the Gr B had some 600+hp.

I think a tight course in torrential rain would reduce the aero advantage and don't forget the F1 is on slicks (aquaplaning) and the WRC car is on wets and 4WD.

[cheapracer]

I think a tight course in torrential rain would reduce the aero advantage and don't forget the F1 is on slicks (aquaplaning) and the WRC car is on wets and 4WD.

Why the **** is the F1 car on slicks? Maybe we could adjust the rule further, say remove the 2 front discs, driver only allowed to use 1 hand while balancing a cup of tea with the other, must 3 point turn at all right handers, must close eyes after 500 meters on straights longer than 500 meters and

Yep, sounding like a challenge now especially on a Kart track.

[Tony Matthews]

Yep, sounding like a challenge now especially on a Kart track.

I'm up for it.