45 replies to this topic

[fan27]

I was looking through some old F1 magazines from the 80's + 90's and noticed that in most of Boutsens starts he was sponsored by Barclays cigarettes, with Benetton and Ligier being the exceptions.

Whilst being a very quick driver, and not an obvious candidate for a "pay driver" tag, did Boutsen bring the sponsorship to Williams in order to get the seat, or was it a team sponsor who wanted Boutsen in the car?

[PeterElleray]

At Arrows, the two sort of went together, without Thierry being a pay driver, but with Barclay making it clear that he was to be part of the deal...

[fan27]

Thanks Peter. I was always a fan of Boutsen but I suppose at best he was a very good journeyman driver. Would you agree?

[kayemod]

Originally posted by fan27
Thanks Peter. I was always a fan of Boutsen but I suppose at best he was a very good journeyman driver. Would you agree?

Not exactly disagreeing with that assessment, I wouldn't class Boutsen as one of the all-time greats, but to class a guy who was good in the rain and won three GPs as 'a very good journeyman' seems just a bit grudging don't you think? That puts him in the same league as Mike Hawthorn, Peter Collins, Phil Hill and Didier Pironi,and there are two world champions in that lot!

[JacnGille]

I think A J Foyt has a fond memory or two of Mr. Boutsen.

[COUGAR508]

Would I be correct in thinking that Boutsen was always quite good at raising sponsorship during his career?

I presume that he got the Williams drive purely on merit, although the Barclay connection may have oiled the wheels.

[27GV]

Three race wins isn't bad considering that was a time when giants roamed the land. I always thought he was a competent steerer who wasn't as fast as Prost say but could keep the car straight and was very good in the wet.

[ellrosso]

His win in the wet at Adelaide was as good as I've seen - atrocious conditions and a very cool headed drive. Not easy! A lot of more highly regarded steerers did'nt even get to the finish that day.
Regards, ellrosso

[ivandjj]

Originally posted by ellrosso
A lot of more highly regarded steerers did'nt even get to the finish that day.

and there lies the key.
i dont remember boutsen ever leading or getting to the front early in wet conditions. he was fast and consistent in the wet, but no rain rocket.

i believe that all of his drives except entry to arrows, were on merit. to me he was competitive top driver in his peak, journeyman tag began after he left williams.

[Vicuna]

Somewhere I have a comic type book being a series of cartoons following Boutsen's final F2 season.

I seem to recall a sponsor also helped him into his F1 debut - was it a carpet maker, or something equally unusual as a motor racing sponsor?

[Nordic]

He featured an art gallery (Mac Connal - mason gallery) and Louis De Poortere fine carpets on the side of his car at the 1983 Brands Hatch GP of Europe.

[Henk A. Hazelaar]

Boutsen - 1983 Brands Hatch Grand Prix of Europe.



Regards,

Henk A. hazelaar

[COUGAR508]

Originally posted by 27GV
Three race wins isn't bad considering that was a time when giants roamed the land. I always thought he was a competent steerer who wasn't as fast as Prost say but could keep the car straight and was very good in the wet.

Although he was a solid driver, he didn't ultimately cut the mustard as far as Frank and Patrick were concerned. Perhaps he was too undemonstrative?

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Nordic

...and Louis De Poortere fine carpets on the side of his car at the 1983 Brands Hatch GP of Europe.

Louis de Poortere had been with Thierry since F3 in one form or another.

When he got pole at Spa in '81 (for the F2 race marking the international re-opening of the circuit), LdP covered his grid spot with a large carpet, much to the amusement of all present, upon which he parked his March!

A smashing chap, very down-to-earth and always the same bloke whichever category he was competing in.

[markpde]

Until don hogdon's photos from Long Beach were posted on the 'Personal photos from the track' thread, I'd laboured under the misconception that Samson Shag (who sponsored Jan Lammers' Shadow) was a carpet manufacturer...

[fines]

... a flying carpet, at times...

[ensign14]

He got into F1 with a patchwork (sorry) of sponsors stuck all over the Arrows, then the team seemed to live race by race on individual sponsors. I remember in GPI there was an interview pointing out he had a helicopter for commuting but no car.

Looking back, he only had 1 realistic chance of winning a Grand Prix, yet ended up with 3 wins.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by ensign14

I remember in GPI there was an interview...

...and I remember when I was at GPI the Arrows invoice for the 1983 British GP (GBP 20,000 IIRC) being found literally stuffed down the back of a filing cabinet. Unpaid.

As you rightly say they had a fairly torrid year in '83 and went race-to-race getting the odd deal here & there with John Bisignano of Valvoline (or consultant to, to be more accurate) doing a sterling job of keeping them going in between. The one 'guest' sponsor from that season who eventually did stay with them for a few years, of course, was Barclay.

[Formula Once]

Boutsen, I think, did sober up the Berger hype in 1985 when they were team mates at Arrows. I guess he will have his own version of how things were at Williams, a story which I think people like Laffite and Frentzen would be able to relate too... A fast, if not the fastest, and very kind person, the last Belgian to do well in F1. A shame he had that crash at Le Mans, I always thought that for him winning there was just a matter of time.

[COUGAR508]

Originally posted by ensign14
He got into F1 with a patchwork (sorry) of sponsors stuck all over the Arrows, then the team seemed to live race by race on individual sponsors. I remember in GPI there was an interview pointing out he had a helicopter for commuting but no car.

Looking back, he only had 1 realistic chance of winning a Grand Prix, yet ended up with 3 wins.

Although I recall that at Interlagos in 1990 he might have had a chance but for a disastrous tyre stop.

[fan27]

Apologies for the delay in me getting back to this topic! It looks like Barclays helped Boutsen in his earlier F1 days and then once he was an established driver tagged along as a team sponsor, except of course at Ligier. He always seemed like a nice chap in F1, very well spoken and polite, yet quite a hard charger on the track. I always view Hungary '90 as a master class in soaking up pressure!

[Formula Once]

Please note that Barclay were sponsoring Williams in 1987 already i.e. two years before Thierry joined the team. They were not instrumental in him getting or keeping the Arrows-drive in 1983, nor his subsequent deals with Benetton and Williams.

As for rating him as a driver; apart from winning 3 Grands Prix, he also starred in sports cars for many years.

Maybe no Prost and Senna, but right up there with the Bergers and Patreses in my opinion, and one of the friendliest drivers of his generation.

[Michael Ferner]

Perhaps it should be pointed out that the latest pic shows Gerhard Berger, and not the subject of this thread?

[BrendanMcF]

This was Boutsen in 85, Silverstone

[rallen]

Anyone got any info on his final season - he had an unhappy time at Jordan and really didn't shine. The car showed promise but Thierry didn't seem to get the most out of it. Would appreciate any views.

[Canon14]

Please note that Barclay were sponsoring Williams in 1987 already i.e. two years before Thierry joined the team. They were not instrumental in him getting or keeping the Arrows-drive in 1983, nor his subsequent deals with Benetton and Williams.

As for rating him as a driver; apart from winning 3 Grands Prix, he also starred in sports cars for many years.

Maybe no Prost and Senna, but right up there with the Bergers and Patreses in my opinion, and one of the friendliest drivers of his generation.

Anyone who wins three Grand Prix must have something about him. You might be able to win one by being in the right place at the right time, but surely not three.

And to pick up on what ellrosso reminded us earlier on the thread, winning at Adelaide in 1989 was no mean feat. I was at that race (and I've only just dried out) - conditions at the start were dreadful and anyone who kept the car on the island and got to the finish must have something going for them.

Add in the sports car performances and you have a perfectly decent driver. Not an all time greats but well deserving of his F1 drives and wins.

[ensign14]

Anyone got any info on his final season - he had an unhappy time at Jordan and really didn't shine. The car showed promise but Thierry didn't seem to get the most out of it. Would appreciate any views.

There's a whole book about it. "Race Without End" by Maurice Hamilton.

[Arjan de Roos]

To get back to the original question, Barclay was launched as a ciggie brand early 80's. A huge campaign was launched for marketing this low tar cigarettes (supposedly with special filters). Next to (incorrectly) claiming it had far less consequences on health, Barclay was positioned as a real mans cigarette. At least in Holland they advertised their pants of with full color pages and posters of a smoking man in tuxedo or on safari.
Also quite some motor racing was sponsored. In those days side cars were a solid part of the moto bike GP weekend. Dutch world champion Streuer was sponsored for some years.
Barclay also featured as the Assen TT sponsor and at Zandvoort we had Barclay Racing Days with all sorts of racing.

I guess Barclay chose Boutsen for promotion in Belgium. Also he was a consistent guy (as stated earlier), no big mouth and quite reliable. Boutsen made his career not flying through the formulae in some years, but had built up his career steady with good results.

At Zandvoort I recall a policeman go beserk when Jackie Oliver wanted to cross a fence with Thierry by lifting the fence from its conrete stand. Oliver showed the copper two passes and shouted: "These are passes aren't they!!!!" Thiery just stood by so calmly and relaxed. I said to the officer: "He is a F1 driver!". Boutsen looked at me as to say: "no worrries".

[rallen]

There's a whole book about it. "Race Without End" by Maurice Hamilton.

Oh brilliant, thanks! never new that - will try and obtain a copy!

[ensign14]

You can get one very cheaply.

Well, well worth a read. It's really about Jordan in 1993, but Hamilton is a very good writer. You can also enjoy the whole of Marco Apicella's Grand Prix career.

[kayemod]

You can get one very cheaply.

You're asking how much for a copy???

Daylight robbery, it's only £0.01 currently on Amazon, and that's for a new copy.

[Chezrome]

Boutsen was very good, not a journeyman at all. As good as Berger, Patrese, multiple Grand Prix winners but just not as good as Prost, or Senna. Sometime drivers like Mansell or Alesi have such big... thingies they can lift themselves to the level of the Senna's and Prosts and Lauda's. But not all the time....

[Peter Morley]

The latest issue of the Dutch RTL GP magazine (year 4, issue 3) has an interview with Thierry.

He now has an office on Rue Grimaldi in Monte Carlo and sells executive jets, the "only" reminders of his previous life are the Williams FW12C that he won the Canadian GP in, which hangs on the wall, and two helmets, one of his own and one of Ayrton's. He started Boutsen Aviation in 1996 following his own deals buying and selling his personal jets.

As for sponsorship he doesn't say much.
Marlboro helped him locally but not internationally (e.g. F3, F2).
He says Belgium had no industry, no market, no sponsors and Jacky Ickx started to help him but 9 months later went back to racing himself and ended up chasing the same sponsors.
No mention of Barclay, but he does say that when the Spirit deal fell apart his sponsors helped to get him another drive which led to Arrows (presumably Barclay).

The Benetton had Camel sponsorship, so Barclay presumably weren't involved.
Then at Williams the car carried secondary Barclay sponsorship.
And he says that lots of money (mainly Labatt's) backing of Mansell persuaded Williams to replace him with Niggle.

It's pointed out a couple of times that he did the development work on cars/engines/active suspension that went on to be very succesful the next season!

I do remember when they came out that Barclay were promoted as 'healthier' cigarettes - a ring of air holes around the filter allowed fresh air to be sucked in as well diluting the ciggy.
'Unfortunately' while this worked in the lab machine for testing cigs, it didn't in the real world where the fingers holding the ciggie would block the air vents (since the lab machine holds a different part of the filter)...
e.g. a bit like giving fuel consumption figures for a car based on a rolling road where there is no air resistance or other real world influences.

[kayemod]

...a bit like giving fuel consumption figures for a car based on a rolling road where there is no air resistance or other real world influences.

I suspect that the rolling road on which my own car's manufacturer obtained their fuel consumption figures was experiencing a strong tailwind at the time, certainly I have some difficulty getting within 10 mpg of these 'Official EEC-Approved' advertised figures, but that's all interesting stuff on Thierry Boutsen.

[Formula Once]

[quote name='Peter Morley' date='Jun 5 2010, 10:12' post='4396072']

No mention of Barclay, but he does say that when the Spirit deal fell apart his sponsors helped to get him another drive which led to Arrows (presumably Barclay).

Barclay first appeared on the Arrows at Monaco in 1983 (when Serra still partnered Surer) and when Thierry joined the team from Spa onwards, his main sponsor was Louis de Poortere. Barclay did not sponsor Arrows later that year, but became its title sponsor from 1984 onwards. By the time Thierry joined Williams, Barclay had sponsored Williams for 2 years already. The Barclay-brand was B&W owned (a subsidiary of British American Tobacco) and given the size of the small Belgium market I can not imagine that it at any point endorsed Thierry as a driver, be it Arrows or Williams, for marketing reasons.

[funformula]

He now has an office on Rue Grimaldi in Monte Carlo and sells executive jets, the "only" reminders of his previous life are the Williams FW12C that he won the Canadian GP in, which hangs on the wall, and two helmets, one of his own and one of Ayrton's.

He may have more than only one of his helmets. Otherwise his son is sometimes taking Thierrys helmet out of the showcase ;)
When I was in Monaco in September 2005, I saw a young boy driving a scooter through the streets near Rascasse. He was wearing a helmet in Boutsen design.
It looked to be an old Arai or GPA helmet with a slightly wider eyeport than modern helmets have.

Edited by funformula, 05 June 2010 - 22:36.

[Peter Morley]

He may have more than only one of his helmets. Otherwise his son is sometimes taking Thierrys helmet out of the showcase ;)
When I was in Monaco in September 2005, I saw a young boy driving a scooter through the streets near Rascasse. He was wearing a helmet in Boutsen design.
It looked to be an old Arai or GPA helmet with a slightly wider eyeport than modern helmets have.

I'm sure he's got more, but the article said the only visible signs were these 3 items, of course the car is a fairly large and obvious item!
Being able to afford an office with such a prestigious address that is able to accomodate the car would suggest that the executive jet business is fairly profitable!

[Formula Once]

As for Barclay: they did sponsor Arrows in 1983 once more after Monaco (at Spa) but Surer's car only, and I always thought they inititally got into the sport via Marc (they also sponsored the Kremer-Porsche he drove in 1985). Maybe their European HQ were based in Switzerland, remember Marlboro (who's European HQ was in Lausanne) came into motor racing via Jo Siffert.

[Arjan de Roos]

As for Barclay: they did sponsor Arrows in 1983 once more after Monaco (at Spa) but Surer's car only, and I always thought they inititally got into the sport via Marc (they also sponsored the Kremer-Porsche he drove in 1985). Maybe their European HQ were based in Switzerland, remember Marlboro (who's European HQ was in Lausanne) came into motor racing via Jo Siffert.

Barclay was a brand of a BAT Sub. BAT HQ was/is in London.

[Michael Ferner]

As for Barclay: they did sponsor Arrows in 1983 once more after Monaco (at Spa) but Surer's car only, and I always thought they inititally got into the sport via Marc (they also sponsored the Kremer-Porsche he drove in 1985). Maybe their European HQ were based in Switzerland, remember Marlboro (who's European HQ was in Lausanne) came into motor racing via Jo Siffert.

I believe Toulo de Graffenried was responsible for Marlboro's racing involvement. Over many years, Marlboro had ads with a "racing content" (or, "racy image" that is) in the Swiss magazine Powerslide before the name started to appear on cars.

[Formula Once]

A bit of topic all this, but I would be curious as to when those advertisements were published. In the sixties? Marlboro came into F1 as a (personal) sponsor of Siffert (in 1970 I think) before creating the World Championship Team-concept and title sponsoring BRM and then McLaren. All this, by the way, was a European initiative initially much critized by Philip Morris' US headoffice that (for many years) felt that racing cars and Grand Prix drivers did not fit in the image it had carefully created by inventing Marlboro Country and its cowboys. Only much later therefore (in the eighties) would Marlboro become involved in US racing.

[Michael Ferner]

[goes over to the closet, picks up the 1969 Powerslide binder, shuffles a few pages...]

Found at random, April 1969, page 2 ad (actually, that ad appears on almost every page two throughout the year): "Top your day with flavor" and a big picture of a helmeted man with a fag in his hand, thinking "I really go for that Marlboro flavor", and several smaller pictures superimposed on lower part: a Lotus/Ford 49 (NGH), a pretty young lady, a starter waving his flag on a gridful of racing cars etc. And yes, the text is in English, with a sort of vocabulary on the upper part: "Flavor: Geschmack, Aroma, Genuss, worldwide, international, begeisternd - Auch im 100 mm-Format - Marlboro Gold" Don't forget the Swiss accent when reading this!!!

I'm sure these and similar adverts ran the length of the decade.

[Arjan de Roos]

OT but this means Marlboro started in F1 with ... Lotus!

[Formula Once]

All this would make sense as Siffert drove a 49B in 1969 and may already have been working with Marlboro at that time.

[Michael Ferner]

Nah, no Siffert connection. The helmet of the Lotus driver is unmistakeable, and has oars on it but no cross.

[Twin Window]

As for Barclay: they did sponsor Arrows in 1983 once more after Monaco (at Spa) but Surer's car only...

Presumably that was because Thierry had a longstanding personal Marlboro deal courtesy of PM Belgium/Benelux.