51 replies to this topic

[pedrovski]

....just don't cross one of their Sheiks!!!!!!!

[Kooper]

A man in a UAE police uniform is seen on the tape tying the victim’s arms and legs, and later holding him down as the Sheikh pours salt on the man’s wounds and then drives over him with his Mercedes SUV.

uh oh, I see another McLaren beat down by Max and the WSMC

[Scotracer]

Well isn't that something :

That's what you get when you have backward individuals sitting on top of a resource they did nothing to earn.

[Saint Devote]

How can anyone be surprised at the actions of facist regimes?

That f1 races there [Bahrain, but also China] is a disgrace but then money is usually placed before morality unfortunately.

[vmk]

It's going to change eventually. By that I mean no F1 races in Countries where only a handful of people want to see the race take place.

[AndreasF1]

THis is shocking to say the least! This guy is an animal and needs to be punished.
Besides beeing a torturer and evil human beeing Sheikh Issa Bin Zayed Al Nahyan (Sheikh Issa) is a member of the royal family in the U.A.E. Sheikh Issa is the younger brother of Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahyan, the President of the U.A.E. and Ruler of Abu Dhabi, and also of Sheikh Mohammed Bin Zayed Al Nahyan, the Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi, and President of the U.A.E. Forbes Magazine estimtes Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahyan's net worth at least $23 billion

After visiting this site and watching that video on http://www.uaetorture.com/ I can understand why Max Mosley might feel welcome in Abu Dhabi.
The page has all the info regarding this now famous case.

[mclarensmps]

Looks not so different from the behaviour of the US government on suspected terrorists. Good on Bernie to stop holding races there, then, too .

[David M. Kane]

The Big Guns:

WTF? Get real, how can you compare the two situations?

[Eastern]

David M. Kane -

Actually I think the two situations can easily be equated. The full might of the US govt and Army sanctioning Abu Ghraib, versus a video of a member of an Emirate ruling family torturing a debtor? Neither is to be condoned, both are egregious.

[4MEN]

"The tip of the iceberg..." Sad true. Ecclestone may thing any publicity is good publicity, btw.

[Orin]

Sickening. Where to next for Formula One? Burma? Ecclestone moves F1 out of Europe and North America for this?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by AndreasF1

After visiting this site and watching that video on http://www.uaetorture.com/ I can understand why Max Mosley might feel welcome in Abu Dhabi.
The page has all the info regarding this now famous case.

I know you guys get erections for Max Mosley, but this is hardly comparable.

[potmotr]

It is not an all unusual for motor racing to take cash from highly dodgy nations.

I remember watching the Australian Touring Car support race for the 1992 Australian Grand Prix in Adelaide.

I was puzzled by an all-white Commodore with no sponsorship except for the word 'Tommy' across the top of the windscreen.

Turns out Tommy was the driver's first name... his last was Suharto!

[ensign14]

I suppose it was better than having a deaf dumb and blind kid driving.

[kar]

What do you expect when a society that is still largely medieval has rulers with so much money and so little checks on their power.

It's truly sickening, and of course we'll get predictable moans about how it's no better than what the west is reponsible for. But in the west, even someone like Bush ultimately is made to account. Can't see the regimes of Bahrain, Abu Dhabi et al (supposedly moderate! states) having any kind of regime change soon.

In the west, Bush's regime gave way to Obama, and Blair/Brown's will shortly give way to Cameron (urgh). Western society may well be hypocritical in their disgust for vile grubby autocracies like those in the middle east, but at least we can ridicule our dictators and every so often change them up.

It's not much, but anyone trying to suggest the west is no better than these grubby emirates can, I hope, justify why on earth they haven't moved to these desert paradises.

[Dalton007]

Originally posted by The Big Guns
Looks not so different from the behaviour of the US government on suspected terrorists. Good on Bernie to stop holding races there, then, too .

Exactly.

[MWM]

Originally posted by kar
It's not much, but anyone trying to suggest the west is no better than these grubby emirates can, I hope, justify why on earth they haven't moved to these desert paradises.

That doesn't make sense. If I'm arguing that both places are equally bad (not that I hold that view, although individuals from anywhere can inflict evil, although some countries * cough, UAE* seem more open to the idea than others), but IF I were to say the west is no better than the Arab states for these things why would that mean I should have to move to an Arab state? If I'm arguing the 2 are equal, surely I could logically choose to live in either?

That said, from the bit of the video I could bear to watch, and I don't like seeing people terrorised, it looked quite quite evil. Not sure what the man is suipposed to have done. If he'd committed an indecent act against a minor one could understand it more, but I'm guessing it was not that....35 mph in a 30 zone perhaps?

I did find some of the "Isn't the USA great" postings under the clip quite ironic though - many in the states (and I'm sure here in the UK too) seem oblivious to the wrongs committed by their own administrations. Right, time to extraordinarily rendition myself back to work...

[Orin]

Originally posted by MWM

That said, from the bit of the video I could bear to watch, and I don't like seeing people terrorised, it looked quite quite evil. Not sure what the man is suipposed to have done. If he'd committed an indecent act against a minor one could understand it more, but I'm guessing it was not that....35 mph in a 30 zone perhaps?

It's okay to torture if morally offended by the victim? Genius.

[wewantourdarbyback]

Martin better watch out when Bernie introduces him to people on the grid then.

[kyriakos75]

Originally posted by kar
even someone like Bush ultimately is made to account.

Is this a fact or a wish?

[PNSD]

This is one man, well okay a few.

Here in Britain we have thousands, infact millions of people I am ashamed to live in the same country as, in fact thousands of people I wouldnt put doing this behavoir past! But the majority are good people.

Point is, do not judge a country or race on the minority. We can not say races in Bahrain, China, Abu Dhabi are bad because they are all like this...

Hell, why not pop out the neo nazi videos from America, or even the gang videos from America? With police involved again.

I dont agree with this, its sickening, but then so are peoples comments condeming the country because of a minority.

[MWM]

Originally posted by Orin


It's okay to torture if morally offended by the victim? Genius.

Nope. I said it could be more easily understood if the victim had perpetrated a hideous act, e.g. against a child.

I'm not going to paint too graphic an example - it's a motorsport BB after all! - but if somebody committed an act of appalling degredation to somebody close to you, I would understand more you wanting to do something more violent to that person than if they had just called you a name.

That is not to excuse violence, but to acknowledge the reality that if you are the victim of something appalling you might, just might, want to punch them on the nose, or worse. I'm sure you can understand that?

Excusing something is different from having a level of mitigation.

[kar]

Originally posted by PNSD
This is one man, well okay a few.

Here in Britain we have thousands, infact millions of people I am ashamed to live in the same country as, in fact thousands of people I wouldnt put doing this behavoir past! But the majority are good people.

Point is, do not judge a country or race on the minority. We can not say races in Bahrain, China, Abu Dhabi are bad because they are all like this...

Hell, why not pop out the neo nazi videos from America, or even the gang videos from America? With police involved again.

I dont agree with this, its sickening, but then so are peoples comments condeming the country because of a minority.

This is a member of the executive i.e. the royal family. To equate this with something in Britain would be require something like Prince Harry locking up some press hack that called his girlfriend ugly in the tower of london and injecting molton lead into parts of said journos body.

There's plenty of nutters in this country - witness what happened in New Cross last year.

But when its done by people in positions of executive power it becomes a whole new level of evil.

And actually even the Prince Harry analogy doesn't work, because he doesn't really have any executive power anyway in this country.

Unlike the royals in Abu Dhabi.

[Mika Mika]

Originally posted by kar


This is a member of the executive i.e. the royal family. To equate this with something in Britain would be require something like Prince Harry locking up some press hack that called his girlfriend ugly in the tower of london and injecting molton lead into parts of said journos body.

Would prob increase his popularity...

[MWM]

Originally posted by Mika Mika


Would prob increase his popularity...

No - he'd need to dye his hair for that.

[potmotr]

Originally posted by ensign14
I suppose it was better than having a deaf dumb and blind kid driving.

Many were surprised his mean pinball ability translated so well behind the wheel of a thundering V8 around the unforgiving streets of Adelaide.

[MegaManson]

Originally posted by kar


This is a member of the executive i.e. the royal family. To equate this with something in Britain would be require something like Prince Harry locking up some press hack that called his girlfriend ugly in the tower of london and injecting molton lead into parts of said journos body.

If he did that to Piers Morgan he would be my all time hero

[Orin]

Originally posted by MWM

Nope. I said it could be more easily understood if the victim had perpetrated a hideous act, e.g. against a child.
...
Excusing something is different from having a level of mitigation.

I didn't watch the video, the description in the accompanying article made clear the gross level of barbarity of the torture. I don't think mitigating factors can excuse such sadism, no matter how serious the victim's crime.

[kar]

Originally posted by Orin


I didn't watch the video, the description in the accompanying article made clear the gross level of barbarity of the torture. I don't think mitigating factors can excuse such sadism, no matter how serious the victim's crime.

Indeed, what is detailed here is nothing short of inhuman. There is a cold, calculating unrelenting barbarity here that is pure evil. To affect such suffering on any living creature, much less a human being, is something no correctly functioning person could stomach.

To not only stomach it, but to record it for posterity shows how completely unaccountable the perpetrator thinks he is. That's the difference between the two crazies behind the new cross atrocity and what is going on here. You have a person of immense and unquestionable power conducting himself in such a way that no words can adequately express.

I don't support the death penalty, under any circumstances, but my goodness it's hard to justify that view after reading and witnessing mere snippets of the atrocity described here.

The actions of this sheik are bad enough, but what effects Formula 1 is rather how the rule of law doesn't seem to apply in this country. While Bernie might think Europe/US is third word now, its companies are still doing much of their business there. I don't know how many companies would want to be associated with a regime where the rule of law is so casually and barbarously ignored.

What impact does that mean for the sport - the forsaking of the roots and heritage of European motorsport - for a calendar full of vile regimes populated by inhuman sociopaths such as this?

[potmotr]

Originally posted by Orin


I didn't watch the video, the description in the accompanying article made clear the gross level of barbarity of the torture. I don't think mitigating factors can excuse such sadism, no matter how serious the victim's crime.

If we're talking human rights I think it is only fair to shine the light upon the appalling labour conditions for many immigrant workers in the UAE.

Those from Pakistan, Bangladesh and India working on large construction sites like those in Dubai are paid nine quid a day. For a 12 hour shift in oppressive heat.

You don't like it and want to go home? You need an exit visa to leave the country. If you retain any debt at all you'll be prevented from leaving.

[Bumper]

Just to remind everyone in here as well that this is the Racing Comments forum. Please keep on topic (as the topic itself is already borderline for Racing Comments), which is should F1 race in Abu Dhabi.

For any indepth discussion on human rights please use the Paddock forum, thanks.

[pedrovski]

Originally posted by Bumper
Just to remind everyone in here as well that this is the Racing Comments forum. Please keep on topic (as the topic itself is already borderline for Racing Comments), which is should F1 race in Abu Dhabi.

For any indepth discussion on human rights please use the Paddock forum, thanks.

So censorship starts kicking in. There's an F1 race in this place the emirate is paying Bernie to host the race to advertise the place, while he's threatening traditional races in Europe where people actually show up to watch. Later in the year we'll hear nothing but praise for Abu Dhabi and all the hyperbole that'll go with it.

This guy's brother is the Interior Minister so I guess no charges. Apparently the victim shafted the Sheik on a $5000 deal on Grain.

Next stops on the F1 circus will be North Korea and Burma.

[HaydenFan]

Originally posted by Bumper
Just to remind everyone in here as well that this is the Racing Comments forum. Please keep on topic (as the topic itself is already borderline for Racing Comments), which is should F1 race in Abu Dhabi.

For any indepth discussion on human rights please use the Paddock forum, thanks.

Should they race? Hmmm... yes. People try to make sport events a privilege to places in the world. The World Cup in South Africa. The Olympics in China. Formula 1 in the Middle East. Money drives these events. Money drives the world. Many of you hear need to get through your thick skulls that F1 can race where ever they so choose. They are a company. They want to make money, and a lot of it. If that means going to races where you could almost count the fan attendance on your hands, it is fine by me. Having a Grand Prix in a country is not a god given right. Whether your in Great Britain (especially them), Germany, France, Italy, Bahrain, Canada, a Grand Prix is all about the money. If you can't make money, or not make enough for what F1 want, then your Grand Prix is gone.

Why do small countries like Malaysia, Monaco, Bahrain, Singapore fund the Grand Prix? Because even of the race weekend loses money, they still build a reputation with tourist and soon money year round is being funneled into the nation.

I hold the opinion that Monaco would be a small fishing village, if it was not for the Grand Prix. Other countries see that and they want that. They want the Grand Prix to build their city into a giant in the world. Cities like Valencia, even with the circuit only a few miles outside the city where still an unknown to most of the world. But now with only one European Grand Prix, it has become one of the hot spots in Spain for tourism.

A sporting event should be devoid from politics of the nation, unless it posses a risk to the drivers and attendees to attend, IMO. Just like the 30's, you had Grand Prix within Nazi Germany. Muhammad Ali as a person is a racist crook, but in the ring, he is the greatest athlete of all time. People were willing to cheer for him, even though 99% of the people who followed him completely disagreed with his polticial views.

Should we stop racing at the Nurburgring, because it was a Nazi project? Should we stop racing at the Norisring, because Nazi rallies were held on the same streets? Should we ban Cuba from playing baseball in the World Baseball Classic? Should we ban Iran from the World Cup? Should we ban Russia from the Olympics? No! You say, "whatever" and you go on with the event Politics should have nothing to do with what sports take place in the world. Whether who competes, or who participates.

[kar]

FOM can elect to host an F1 race pretty much anywhere they like in the world. But if I was a corporate sponsor, I'd start increasingly questing the value of being associated with a sport so voracious for dictatorial dosh.

With F1 increasingly being 'outsourced' to these grubby little autocracies in the Middle East and Asia the actual relevance of Formula 1 to its principal (i.e. liberal democractic) roots becomes dubious.

But we've known Bernie and CVC have been running Formula 1 like an out of control hedge fund for sometime. To be honest, this particularly cynical dictatorial funded bubble cannot burst soon enough.

[mclarensmps]

Originally posted by kar
It's not much, but anyone trying to suggest the west is no better than these grubby emirates can, I hope, justify why on earth they haven't moved to these desert paradises.

I used to live there, and if it was my choice, I still would be.

I'd also like to point out that I am not endorsing this behaviour in any way, I just find it hypocritical of people to point fingers at others when their own backyard is such a mess.

[mclarensmps]

Originally posted by kar


And actually even the Prince Harry analogy doesn't work, because he doesn't really have any executive power anyway in this country.

Unlike the royals in Abu Dhabi.

Prince Harry is a member of the UK royal family in exactly the same way as Issa is a member of the UAE Royal family.

There is a reason his brother is in office rather than him, and this video shows it.

[Orin]

Originally posted by The Big Guns


Prince Harry is a member of the UK royal family in exactly the same way as Issa is a member of the UAE Royal family.

There is a reason his brother is in office rather than him, and this video shows it.

kar's making the point that the British Royal Family only have limited political influence and would be hung out to dry if they were caught in a similar situation. Same goes for our politicians. It appears this sadist is going to be unpunished for his actions.

[27GV]

Well that's what happens when you have unrepresentative inbreds with absolute power. And Bernie is lining their pockets.

[27GV]

Originally posted by ensign14
I suppose it was better than having a deaf dumb and blind kid driving.

Not better than giving the seat to someone with talent beyond the ability to empty daddy's full wallet.

[kar]

Originally posted by 27GV
Well that's what happens when you have unrepresentative inbreds with absolute power. And Bernie is lining their pockets.

I think they are lining Bernie's. Not the other way around. Bernie gives them a modicum of legitimacy and they give Bernie helicopters of cash.

[RoutariEnjinu]

This annoys me somewhat. You've essentially got an immature society from the dark-ages, casually using a high-technology Mercedes SUV (a product of the Enlightenment and a free society) for granted as a device for torture.

Just because they happen to inhabit a country rich with oil, they've been leap-frogged as a society that now gets hard and long earned technology and information, without having to generally "grow up" and earn it for themselves.

This guy is probably being slowly crippled for entertainment, after he forgot to pray to a sky fairy at a certain time or something. Or perhaps he refused to kill his daughter after she befriended a western male or something.

We can only hope their younger generation is inspired by the F1 circus. Especially if Danica gets a USGPE drive. In that respect, I don't think a Grand Prix is a bad idea.

[Tenmantaylor]

Undertaking some work for a renowned UAE owned company at the minute... been working extra hard since I came across this!

[Tenmantaylor]

Originally posted by RoutariEnjinu
This annoys me somewhat. You've essentially got an immature society from the dark-ages, casually using a high-technology Mercedes SUV (a product of the Enlightenment and a free society) for granted as a device for torture.

Its very blinkered to make such statements. Many middle eastern countries were establishing advanced mathemtaics whilst we were butchering each other during our dark ages.

[mclarensmps]

Originally posted by RoutariEnjinu
This guy is probably being slowly crippled for entertainment, after he forgot to pray to a sky fairy at a certain time or something. Or perhaps he refused to kill his daughter after she befriended a western male or something.

The reasoning behind the behaviour is noted in the article, and doesn't actually have anything to do with the atheist agenda.

[Orin]

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor


Its very blinkered to make such statements. Many middle eastern countries were establishing advanced mathemtaics whilst we were butchering each other during our dark ages.

Unfortunately they stagnated at around 12th or 13th centuries.

[RoutariEnjinu]

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor


Its very blinkered to make such statements. Many middle eastern countries were establishing advanced mathemtaics whilst we were butchering each other during our dark ages.

Yes they did, but they gave it up for Theocracy which stiffled such free enquiry, and sent them back as a society.

Before any of this, and before our own butchering spree, we had a similar thing going on with the Library of Alexandria, but that was burned down in favour of Theocracy too.

In both previous cases, the science was for the elite, and it never filtered down to the greater public, which is why Theocracy was able to so easily over power it as the sole source of authority.

In the Enlightenment, science wasn't a secret luxury of the elite anymore, and public heroes were born.

So like I said, maybe F1 can influence the next generation of people living over there. Maybe they'll start questioning why they have Rose Water instead of Champagne. Maybe they'll start questioning why, indeed HOW there's a Woman racing if Danica gets a drive.

Maybe they'll start questioning why we're all OK with Sutil running as he does

Originally posted by The Big Guns
atheist agenda

So what would you say this agenda is then? Other than being publicly frustrated with the very permanent and definite things people do to each other, over something as indefinite as Theism?

If this isn't the place to discuss, feel free to PM. I'm interested to see how this is perceived.

[mclarensmps]

Originally posted by RoutariEnjinu
So what would you say this agenda is then? Other than being publicly frustrated with the very permanent and definite things people do to each other, over something as indefinite as Theism?

If this isn't the place to discuss, feel free to PM. I'm interested to see how this is perceived.

Your frustration was duly conveyed in your message, but your reasoning is more a deliberate cheap shot at belief systems, and seems unwarranted seeing that the (unjustified) cause of the actions in question have already been addressed in the article.

[kar]

A good article in the guarding picking up on this story.

http://www.guardian....s-torture-video

What I find fascinating is the contrast between Arab outrage at Abu Ghraib and the (necessary) soul searching it caused in the west with the silence over this one.

I don't know about anyone else, but after the spineless, shameful reaction of the Abu Dhabi 'government' to this I will do my utmost to boycott anything tainted by this regime.

Edited by kar, 30 April 2009 - 13:10.

[mclarensmps]

A good article in the guarding picking up on this story.

http://www.guardian....s-torture-video

What I find fascinating is the contrast between Arab outrage at Abu Ghraib and the (necessary) soul searching it caused in the west with the silence over this one.

I don't know about anyone else, but after the spineless, shameful reaction of the Abu Dhabi 'government' to this I will do my utmost to boycott anything tainted by this regime.

If you honestly thought that the rich Arab countries actually cared about Abu Ghraib, or, frankly Israel/Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran, don't you think they'll have done something other than sit and complain about it all day long?

Regarding that matter, their hypocrisy is fairly simple to see through without even going into this incident...

The rich Arab nations need these conflicts as much as the US, if for nothing else, then to draw attention away from their regimes.

At the end of the day, I think the west is no better than the east, and vice versa, so calling foul on either side is pretty much hypocrisy, to say the least.

Therefore, it shouldn't matter whether a race is held there or here, based on things like this. It's sad but it's true.

If we were to start judging where to hold races based on how strongly human rights are upheld across the world, we'd be left with very few venues, if any, to race at.

[kar]

Well it's not the place to get into philosophical debate about the moral superiority of one culture over another, but I know which region of the world I'd prefer to live in, and given the lack of western exodus to these sandpit autocracies, I doubt I'm alone.

The story is starting to pick up some heat again with political repercussions starting to be heard.

http://www.timesonli...mp;attr=2015164

I find it frankly astonishing that it took such deals being threatened for the regime to issue anything resembling a willingness to investigate the story. Personally, while I take your point about the F1 calendar looking pretty sparse if moral upstanding was a pre-requisite, I do think such brutal, state sanctioned, abuse of human rights should impact on the appropriateness of a venue to host F1 events.