21 replies to this topic

[ward.rusty]

Long-time lurker, first time poster -hope this is the right forum! I've always understood 'in a spin, both feet in' (i.e. depress clutch w/left foot; brake w/right) to have the best opportunity to control and recover from a spin (in addition, of course, to sterring like crazy!) What exactly does an F1 driver (w/no foot-operated clutch) have to decide and then perform in order to prevent the car from stalling? I see some drivers stay on the gas, keeping the wheels spinning, while others stall following seemingly-minor loops -is there some instant that he must decide to lift and/or select neutral or some lower gear? Thanks!

[goGoGene]

I recall Sarrrazin in Brazil just gunned the throttle, he definitly got some tv coverage with that!

ggg

[Chewbacca]

If they're near a barrier they usually take both hands off the wheel to avoid breaking their wrists.

[Ray Bell]

Many years ago I read somewhere that spins happen in 180 degree stages, and that at 180 degrees you could pull it up if you straightened the steering and hit the brakes. It works.
Letting go of the steering wheel is to protect the thumbs more than the wrists, I think.

[355 boy]

When you loose tractioin with the rear of the car and get into an oversteer situation, which would directly preceed a spin, the worst thing you can do is take your hands off the wheel and accelerator. You should steer into the spin and not aggrevate the situation by lifting off & causing 'lift-off' oversteer.

[Damop]

In a skid with a front-drive car you should punch the accelerator to correct the skid (not F1, I know). The wieght transfer to the rear wheels will correct the slide.

[Yelnats]

I always smile at advise for gaining control of a car that includes punching the throttle. In real world situations, the last thing you want to do is put more energy into an out of control vehicle. A far more effective way, (and the reason we have steering wheels) is to turn into the spin. I've spent the last thirty years driving the icy and gravelly back country roads of Canada and deliberatly provoking and recovering from spins just for the fun of it! And it's always worked for me (so far).;)

Incidently a sliding vehicle is not the same as a spinning one and may require an entirely different driving treatment.

[axeman]

Many years ago at the Adelaide GP Senna lost it coming into the final hairpin. Can't remember which year it was but it was one of the races in the pouring rain. Someone here will correct me but I think it was 88 or 89 after the Prost/Senna incident at Suzuka and Senna thought he was still in it for the championship. He finally barrelled into someone on the back straight and there is brilliant footage from one of those cameras mounted in/near the exhauist system as Senna just appears out of the spray and BANG!

Anyway, back to the topic...... Senna lost it early on in the race and did three or four rotations in this particular incident. At each point in the spin when he was going backwards you see him steering into the spin and gunning the engine. As the car continued to rotate through the spin he got off the gas. Note he did this three or four times and it was a VICIOUS spin.

It would appear the different answers here suggest there is no one way to correct a spin, or alternatively no-one REALLY knows what we're talking about!!! Nevertheless, it has always stuck with me that Senna had the presence of mind to think about when to be on the gas and when to be off whilst spinning at about 180kmh!

[Damop]

Yelnats - trust me it works. I learned it at a racing school and have used it on public roads twice to great effect. Don't forget, I said skidding, not spinning.

[FucF1]

Damop, that does work as I discovered one snowy winters night. My passengers loved me for it (we were right next to a 100ft drop);)
Takes an effort of will to resist automatically hitting the brakes though.

[just me again]

Here are some of the things i have learned about sliding/spinning frontdriven cars

1 : If it is not slippery it is VERY difficult to spin a frontwheeldriven car without using the handbrake or leftfootbrake, if you do so, or if you car is spinning otherwise on slippery surface, then there is only one thing to do and that is DECLUTCH very fast and steer like heel, it ALWAYS has worked for me. You probaly will steer to much/fast so you will get the car into a spin/slide in the opposide direction, you may even have to catch several small slides before the car is pointing stable in the right direction. But it will work, if you senses that you are going into a spin soon enough and declutches.
2 : If you want to slide a frontdriven car around corners fast, then steer into the corner very soon and gun the throttle so you get an understeer, if you then need to turn sharper, then you just lift the throttle, that will get you and oversterring car because of the weighttransfer ( it will not work on every frontdriven car, it depends on how the car is set up )
3: if the car is difficult to get into an oversteer, then brake hard into the corner( for weighttransfer ) and at the samme time steer sligtly from side to side ( for destabilizesing the lighter rear end ), stop the braking after you have turned into the corner and the car has started to oversteer, from then on control the slide with the throttle ( not the sterringwheel )if you gun the throttle you steer outwards, if you lift you steer inwards.
Just me Again

[Winny]

Different situations call for different responses, but awareness is the deciding factor.

JV touching the grass at Indy, MS being punted around at Austria....slow oversteer "spins" - Both kept the right foot firmly planted to keep the engine running and to try to minimise the distance travelling backwards and regain some control

Hakkinen at Monza 98, back snaps out coming into the 2nd chicane - Mika obviously comes off the gas, clutch in, and selects neutral with the switch on the wheel. Not much else to do but try not to hit anything as he flys through the gravel trap.

It seems that barring contact with large immovable objects, presence of mind determines whether or not you'll stall, which is why most of the top drivers don't do it with any regularity, while some others do.

[Wolf]

The best thing for that situation is the 'feel' of the car; if you predict or feel the loss of traction and manner of it (oversteer or understeer), you will be able to react more appropriately. I distinctly remember reading Moss' description that he felt loosing rear end, and could 'hear' a growl of front wheels loosing traction!

[Ross Stonefeld]

Front wheel drive, turn in and punch it. Watch BTCC sometimes, incredible

Rear wheel drive, if the back end is allready starting to come around fully jumping off the throttle wont give you trailing throttle oversteer. You allready are oversteering. You just keep moving out of the throttle until you start to get steering back. There is a magical point where you turn the direction the nose is headed and boot it, but I'm never brave enough to risk that.

Ross Stonefeld
Aztec International

[tak]

Reaction to a spin will always depend on the situation. In the case of slow to medium spins one can somewhat control the final resting place of the car.
IF the spin starts at apex or later-
turning INTO the spin, the car will usually end up on the INSIDE of the corner.
Turning out of the spin and standing on it will usually keep the car on the race track.
Both feet in (steering is irrelevant if wheels locked) sends the car tangentially off the outside of the corner.

At least this has been my experience racing a gen 1 Rx-7 (rear drive, solid axle, low power/weight).

If the car spins at corner entry, hope the barriers are a ways off--you're hosed no matter what you do.

[MacFan]

Originally posted by just me again
Here are some of the things i have learned about sliding/spinning frontdriven cars

1 : If it is not slippery it is VERY difficult to spin a frontwheeldriven car without using the handbrake or leftfootbrake, if you do so, or if you car is spinning otherwise on slippery surface, then there is only one thing to do and that is DECLUTCH very fast and steer like heel, it ALWAYS has worked for me. You probaly will steer to much/fast so you will get the car into a spin/slide in the opposide direction, you may even have to catch several small slides before the car is pointing stable in the right direction. But it will work, if you senses that you are going into a spin soon enough and declutches.

The problem with removing power rapidly from an unstable front wheel drive car as you describe is the deceleration increases forward weight transfer, further unsettling the rear and increasing the likelihood of a spin. Declutching is better than jumping off the throttle, as there is less torque reversal, but the best way to correct the slide is to keep the throttle balanced and steer gently into the slide. The rapid steering you describe is more likely to result in a spin than if the car had been left to sort itself out - road tyres on most front wheel drive cars are so forgiving that you don't need to panic, and rarely need more than half a turn of opposite lock.

These techniques don't come automaatically. They can be practiced on a skidpan or other low friction surface, and IMO should be compulsory for everybody allowed to drive on the road - it's far better to discover how to recover a slide safely in controlled conditions, than to make your mistakes on a public road with other drivers about.

[just me again]

I like an oversterring car, therefore i do what it takes to unsettle the rearend.
The meaning with the sterring like hell part, was to catch a spin on slipperi surface ( Ice or loose wet snow at zero degrees )in these circumstanses the spin will not stop it self because there is absolutely no friction. On dry tarmac it is near impossible to get you car sliding/spinning more than it will sort itself out just by declutching.

[MacFan]

I'm sure it does work for you on ice or snow, but the techniques I posted above are taught by professional instructors on low-grip skidpan surfaces. The over-correction you speak of is likely to catch out an inexperienced driver, as the car tends to slide the "opposite" way much faster than it originally lost grip.

[FucF1]

Its all a matter of experience, if you have to think about what your doing its nearly always to late. It should come naturally. BTW In the above example the car was understeering severly, straight ahead.

[Yelnats]

Damop, You did say say "skid" which could be interpreted as "spin" when you consider the topic title.

I have used trottle to provoke oversteer in my Front Wheel Drive - Shelby Omni GLH - during slaloms back in the eighties. But I would never use it when scrabbling for traction and running out highway! If I'm going off the road, I can do without the extra 10 or 20 mph that punching the throttle can give.

[FucF1]

Depends on how much runoff you have left, it works.

[Yelnats]

FucF1. I had great fun Slaloming my Shelby GLH Omni (Goes Like Hell) by putting snow tires on the back. I started a bit of a trend in slalom racing by putting 195/50 Goodyear snow tires on the back and 195/50 Yokahama stickies on the front. Terminal oversteeer was always available and helped swing the rear end around the tightest corners. Perhaps not the fastest way around but it looked damned impressive (until someone figured out what I was up to) and it was by far the most reliable way to provoke tail out oversteer with a Front Wheel Drive car!