26 replies to this topic

[Madras]

Was this deliberate? Why when the guy finally got the tyre did he seem to wait for a signal before putting it on?

[ForeverF1]

I wouldn't say it was deliberate but it was an almighty cock up that's for sure. Headless chickens comes to mind.

[Just waiting]

I wouldn't say it was deliberate but it was an almighty cock up that's for sure. Headless chickens comes to mind.

yes, but i think one problem might have been determing if this was the right tire (and certain fol would say, they were waiting until MS was safely in the lead....

[Jhope]

yes, but i think one problem might have been determing if this was the right tire (and certain fol would say, they were waiting until MS was safely in the lead....

I believe that if Irvine won this race, he would eventually have been the first Ferrari champion since Jody in 79. That being said, he was also leaving at the end of the season for Jaguar. I really don't think Ferrari wanted to have Irvine as champion, even with MS out with a broken leg. And to make matters worse, do you think Ferrari wanted Irvine to take the very very sought after number 1 to Jaguar after 20 years of waiting for it?

[Scotracer]

I fail to see why Ferrari would sabotage their own attempt at a WDC...

[rolf123]

I fail to see why Ferrari would sabotage their own attempt at a WDC...

Yep, they didn't drag Schumi back for nothing. Remember his daughter gave away the fact that he was pulling a "sicky" and Luca was not pleased.

[stevvy1986]

yes, but i think one problem might have been determing if this was the right tire (and certain fol would say, they were waiting until MS was safely in the lead....

Little bit difficult considering Schumi didn't come back until the following race in Malaysia........

[HP]

I believe that if Irvine won this race, he would eventually have been the first Ferrari champion since Jody in 79. That being said, he was also leaving at the end of the season for Jaguar. I really don't think Ferrari wanted to have Irvine as champion, even with MS out with a broken leg. And to make matters worse, do you think Ferrari wanted Irvine to take the very very sought after number 1 to Jaguar after 20 years of waiting for it?

Points earn money. Having the #1 on the car is just an eye candy. I'm pretty certain what Ferrari wanted. Not to mention that it is better for Ferrari if somebody else than MS, even back then, won the WDC.

And how does your theory fit with Mika Salo having to hand over a win to Irvine in the other race in Germany that year? Not to mention that this robbed Salo of his one and only win he'd collected in F1.


No, this was a real costly brain fart from someone in the team.

EDIT:
Do you really think it mattered to Ferrari, if Jaguar or McLaren had the #1 and #2 on the cars, while Ferrari, regardless of Irvine winning the WDC was eligible for #3 and #4? Without Ferrari winning the WCC, then they'd run #5 and #6 on the car. IMO that pretty much should put your theory to rest.

Edited by HP, 10 May 2009 - 01:38.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Um, you do realize this is Ferrari we're talking about here. The team whose pit actions define the phrase "snatch defeat from the jaws of victory."

Don't feed the troll.

[ZZMS]

Yep, they didn't drag Schumi back for nothing. Remember his daughter gave away the fact that he was pulling a "sicky" and Luca was not pleased.

you need to use your brains before mindlessly repeat this stupid urban legend

[Dolph]

yes, but i think one problem might have been determing if this was the right tire (and certain fol would say, they were waiting until MS was safely in the lead....

MS was not even in the race as he was at home with a broken leg.

I believe that if Irvine won this race, he would eventually have been the first Ferrari champion since Jody in 79. That being said, he was also leaving at the end of the season for Jaguar. I really don't think Ferrari wanted to have Irvine as champion, even with MS out with a broken leg. And to make matters worse, do you think Ferrari wanted Irvine to take the very very sought after number 1 to Jaguar after 20 years of waiting for it?

Irvine was not in a position to win the race.

[MinT]

Thank God this has been raised again.

I have not been able to rest for the last 10 years. The need for the truth nagging away at me constantly.

[Dolph]

Thank God this has been raised again.

I have not been able to rest for the last 10 years. The need for the truth nagging away at me constantly.

Perhaps you need to see somebody about that then.

[scheivlak]

Ah, for the umptiest time.....

Of course it was a cock-up, but keep in mind that a few spots of rain started to fall on the previous lap, and McLaren hastened to get Hakkinen (lying 2nd behind Frentzen IIRC) in for a change to rain tyres. Ferrari then called Irvine (lying 5th further back) in for the same, but then realised that the rain had in fact stopped. So the rain tyres were ready, but in a last second change they choose -rightfully- for dry weather tyres. With the confusion as a result.

What few people seem to remember is that as a result of this all Irvine could easily pass Hakkinen a few laps later who simply was on the wrong tyres. Both were of course miles off the points at that moment.
Later on, partly because of all the accidents and retirements (Frentzen, Couthard, Fisi, Badoer - just to name a few) they did get near points scoring positions and Hakkinen made a very crucial pass on Irvine to reach 5th place and 2 points in the end, while Irvine just remained stuck behind a Minardi and finished 7th.

So on race pace the McLaren was clearly superior, but because McLaren's wrong tyre choice for Mika hurt them even more than the obvious Ferrari blunder, Irvine almost finished ahead of his main rival.....

BTW Schumacher was there at the Nurburgring - as a guest/spectator.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Ah, for the umptiest time.....

.....

BTW Schumacher was there at the Nurburgring - as a guest/spectator.

So what you're saying is, his sabotaging ways started way before Kimi came to Ferrari. Check.


LMAO

[Schuperman]

So what you're saying is, his sabotaging ways started way before Kimi came to Ferrari. Check.


LMAO

The pattern is there.

Whenever MS has been a guest / spectator, Ferrari's race strategies / crews would have made a lot of amateurish mistakes most of the time.

In contrast, to his credit, whenever he had been a pilot, almost everything clicked together for Ferrari in a dominance fashion. For example, in 1999, during his absence, Ferrari did a lot of mistakes and was on the decline race after race. In the penultimate race, Malaysia 1999, he was called to help Irvine. Suddenly Ferrari became a team to beat again. In fact, Ferrari, particularly MS, dominated the qualifying and race.

[Frans]

Of course it was delibered, no question about that.

And if one cannot see that, well, to bad.

[MWM]

yes, but i think one problem might have been determing if this was the right tire (and certain fol would say, they were waiting until MS was safely in the lead....

Schumacher wasn't racing that day. he had broken his leg. Don't let the details get in the way of a good anti-Ferrari conspiracy though.

Edited by MWM, 11 May 2009 - 09:42.

[fifi]

Schumacher wasn't racing that day. he had broken his leg. Don't let the details get in the way of a good anti-Ferrari conspiracy though.

maybe MS was meant to be Mika Salo ;)

[Lazarus II]

Points earn money. Having the #1 on the car is just an eye candy. I'm pretty certain what Ferrari wanted. Not to mention that it is better for Ferrari if somebody else than MS, even back then, won the WDC.

And how does your theory fit with Mika Salo having to hand over a win to Irvine in the other race in Germany that year? Not to mention that this robbed Salo of his one and only win he'd collected in F1.


No, this was a real costly brain fart from someone in the team.

EDIT:
Do you really think it mattered to Ferrari, if Jaguar or McLaren had the #1 and #2 on the cars, while Ferrari, regardless of Irvine winning the WDC was eligible for #3 and #4? Without Ferrari winning the WCC, then they'd run #5 and #6 on the car. IMO that pretty much should put your theory to rest.

Actually many strange things slowed Irvines championship bid that year. The famous three-wheeled pit stop and the Monza qualy timing "glitch".
Somehow (at MONZA) every car but Irvine's Ferrari recorded split times during Q; EI qualified 9th. During the race Irvine had that quality pitstop and finished 1m06.683 behind the leader. MIka finished 1m02.950 behind the leader. Irvine SHOULD have taken points off of Hakkinen that day. Instead he lost points, all because Ferrari forgot their car used 4 tires.

As to whether Ferrari care about having #1 on their car - hell yes they care! "eye candy" pays the bills. F1 is where they do advertisng! having a big #1 emblazoned on the front means something. That's a ridiculous statement.

Irvine gave Salo the "win" trophy for helping him secure the '99 German GP.

Schumacher wasn't racing that day. he had broken his leg. Don't let the details get in the way of a good anti-Ferrari conspiracy though.

He was playing soccer with a broken leg

Edited by Lazarus II, 11 May 2009 - 14:33.

[MinT]

Perhaps you need to see somebody about that then.

Yeah like I was serious...duh

[scheivlak]

During the race Irvine had that quality pitstop and finished 1m06.683 behind the leader. MIka finished 1m02.950 behind the leader. Irvine SHOULD have taken points off of Hakkinen that day. Instead he lost points, all because Ferrari forgot their car used 4 tires.

As I posted above, Mika lost far more time with his unnecessary pitstop for rain tyres - with another pitstop to switch back as a result - than Eddie with his bungled stop.
After lap 19, Hakkinen was 6.3 seconds ahead of Irvine. After lap 25 Eddie was 37 seconds ahead of twice-pitting Mika, his own bungled pitstop notwithstanding!
See http://atlasf1.autos....html?raceid=14

Hakkinen could have easily won the European GP without his extra stops.
Instead it gave DC a big chance to get completely back in the WDC hunt, a chance David squandered by going off track while leading.
Still, nobody has yet accused McLaren of sabotaging Mika's effort ;)

[MWM]

maybe MS was meant to be Mika Salo ;)

heh - true. Granted.

[Madras]

As I posted above, Mika lost far more time with his unnecessary pitstop for rain tyres - with another pitstop to switch back as a result - than Eddie with his bungled stop.
After lap 19, Hakkinen was 6.3 seconds ahead of Irvine. After lap 25 Eddie was 37 seconds ahead of twice-pitting Mika, his own bungled pitstop notwithstanding!
See http://atlasf1.autos....html?raceid=14

Hakkinen could have easily won the European GP without his extra stops.
Instead it gave DC a big chance to get completely back in the WDC hunt, a chance David squandered by going off track while leading.
Still, nobody has yet accused McLaren of sabotaging Mika's effort ;)

But that's irrelevant when considering whether Irvine's pitstop was deliberately ruined.

[cheapracer]

Was this deliberate? Why when the guy finally got the tyre did he seem to wait for a signal before putting it on?

Youtube is banned in China but going by memory alone there was rain about and thats why there was indecision.

[Frans]

yeah that explains it all! Hahahaha. 3 dry tires and one wet tire somewhere nowhere to be found. hahahaha

[scheivlak]

But that's irrelevant when considering whether Irvine's pitstop was deliberately ruined.

Well, there was a perfect and logical explanation for what happened.

If you still think it was deliberate, you might as well go for conspiracy theories about other teams.