35 replies to this topic

[jeze]

I wonder in which series left-foot braking pedals are allowed or not, or if there are any rules on the matter? Can a WTCC team fit its cars with two pedals and a hand clutch, to improve car feel, or is it forbidden in the rules? The series' I wonder about are DTM, WTCC/Super 2000, FIA GT cars, V8 Supercars et cetera.

Would be appreciative for answers!

[ben38]

errrrhhh hum how to say.....
Left foot braking doesn't mean to have a second brake pedal
It litteral means to press the brake pedal with the left foot

Funny post indeed^^

[Ross Stonefeld]

Interesting idea though.

[cheapracer]

In F1 McLaren around '2000 were asked to remove their extra pedals as were Opel with the Group A Kadett in rallying around the late 80's.

[OfficeLinebacker]

I know that many drivers in NASCAR don't even use the clutch to shift gears on road courses. JPM in particular used his left foot for the brake and appeared to be rev-matching. Pretty sweet IMO.

[GrpB]

Is this for separate actuation of left/right brakes (cutting brakes) as used on a tractor or dune buggy, or separate front/rear brake actuation as on a motorcycle? I would think that with an open diff(s) and a modern gyroscopic based hydraulic ibrake actuator/controller as used for stability control on passenger cars that with the appropriate sensor inputs it would be more effective to use electronics as opposed to adding additional pedals to actuate individual brakes (per corner) manually.

What mode of brake actuation (front/rear or side/side) did the McLaren F1 and Opel rally cars use? No electronic actuation assist?

[phantom II]

[dosco]

Is this for separate actuation of left/right brakes (cutting brakes) as used on a tractor or dune buggy, or separate front/rear brake actuation as on a motorcycle? I would think that with an open diff(s) and a modern gyroscopic based hydraulic ibrake actuator/controller as used for stability control on passenger cars that with the appropriate sensor inputs it would be more effective to use electronics as opposed to adding additional pedals to actuate individual brakes (per corner) manually.

What mode of brake actuation (front/rear or side/side) did the McLaren F1 and Opel rally cars use? No electronic actuation assist?

Cheapracer is referring to "fiddle brakes" ... from Wikipedia:

"At the 1997 Austrian Grand Prix, Darren Heath, an F1 Racing photographer, noticed in some of his shots that one of the rear brakes of the McLarens were glowing red in an acceleration zone of the track. The magazine discovered through investigation that McLaren had installed a second brake pedal, selectable by the driver, to act on one of the rear wheels depending on the direction of the corner. This allowed the driver to reduce wheelspin when exiting slow corners and more usefully eliminate understeer by turning the car into the corner while entering it, giving him the ability to brake later into the apex of the turn. Though the car passed scrutineering this system was not entirely legal, but was an innovation, and hence gave McLaren an advantage. As the system allowed one side of the car to be ******** compared to the other the system was considered a type of four-wheel steering which was banned in F1. One notable backer of this complaint was Jackie Stewart; on the grid at Brazil in 1998 he aired this view in an interview with ITV. While F1 Racing suspected what McLaren were doing, they required proof to publish the story. At the Luxembourg Grand Prix the two McLarens retired from the race. This allowed Heath to take a picture of the footwell of Häkkinen's car and the second brake pedal. The story was run in the November issue of F1 Racing and led to the system being dubbed the "fiddle brake". Ferrari's protestations to the FIA lead to the system being banned at the 1998 Brazilian Grand Prix."

[OfficeLinebacker]

I think this right here is what the thread is about.

[phantom II]

Next step of the dance

[Tony Matthews]

I think this right here is what the thread is about.

What - remotely-controlled racing boots? Are they within the spirit of the regulations? Next thing we know it'll be glove-puppets...

[gruntguru]

The story was run in the November issue of F1 Racing and led to the system being dubbed the "fiddle brake". Ferrari's protestations to the FIA lead to the system being banned at the 1998 Brazilian Grand Prix."

They were called "Fiddle brakes" long before that. Someone needs to edit that Wikipedia page.

Fiddle brakes are very common on motorkana specials where they are often implemented on the drive axle only, enabling power to be applied on the outside wheel and retardation simultaneously on the inside wheel. The result is an ability to spin the car on the spot if required.

Edited by gruntguru, 29 May 2009 - 23:26.

[Tony Matthews]

They were called "Fiddle brakes" long before that. Someone needs to edit that Wikipedia page.

Fiddle brakes are very common on motorkana specials where they are often implemented on the drive axle only, enabling power to be applied on the outside wheel and retardation on the inside wheel. The result is an ability to spin the car on the spot if required.

I think they originated on horse-drawn vehicles.. My Vintage project has a whipple-tree and a wriggly monkey. So there...

[cheapracer]

Casper?

[cheapracer]

.

What mode of brake actuation (front/rear or side/side) did the McLaren F1 and Opel rally cars use? No electronic actuation assist?

Malcom Wilson in the front wheel drive works rally Opel Kadett wanted a 4th left pedal to operate the rears only rather than taking his hands off the wheel to operate the handbrake and the FIA wouldn't homoligate it.

[Catalina Park]

Malcom Wilson in the front wheel drive works rally Opel Kadett wanted a 4th left pedal to operate the rears only rather than taking his hands off the wheel to operate the handbrake and the FIA wouldn't homoligate it.

In Minis we would just stomp the left foot on the brake pedal to do the same thing. Well amost the same thing, the rears would lock and the fronts would be under load from the right foot.

[BorderReiver]

Just to confuse the issue a little . . .



Above is the current pedal layout I have in my Class 9 (apologies for the mud, you can't run in the sport without getting everything covered in sh*t). From left to right, it's Clutch (Yellow) Brake (Red) Brake (Red) Throttle (Silver).

Those two brake pedals are entirely separate (though obviously they operate the same system).

This enables me to left foot brake whenever I want without the steering column getting in the way. This is an essential practice when you're racing on dirt or shale since you're often tap dancing on the pedals, particularly when attempting to maintain the best entry into turns and kicking the back out to slide through them.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Just to confuse the issue a little . . .



Above is the current pedal layout I have in my Class 9 (apologies for the mud, you can't run in the sport without getting everything covered in sh*t). From left to right, it's Clutch (Yellow) Brake (Red) Brake (Red) Throttle (Silver).

Those two brake pedals are entirely separate (though obviously they operate the same system).

This enables me to left foot brake whenever I want without the steering column getting in the way. This is an essential practice when you're racing on dirt or shale since you're often tap dancing on the pedals, particularly when attempting to maintain the best entry into turns and kicking the back out to slide through them.

I, for one, would like to see some videos of you dancing on the pedals and kicking the back out to slide through the turns.

TIA

[mahleu]

I remember driving a tractor with left and right braking separate pedals (although a joining bracket could be lowered to make them work together) which made steering a lot easier when the front wheels were in the air, did I mention you can wheelie a tractor quite easily?

Edited by mahleu, 30 May 2009 - 16:26.

[gruntguru]

I, for one, would like to see some videos of you dancing on the pedals and kicking the back out to slide through the turns.

TIA

Please put your feet into the shoes before filming.

Edited by gruntguru, 31 May 2009 - 00:08.

[Powersteer]

This enables me to left foot brake whenever I want without the steering column getting in the way. This is an essential practice when you're racing on dirt or shale since you're often tap dancing on the pedals, particularly when attempting to maintain the best entry into turns and kicking the back out to slide through them.

Do you left foot brake at the same time have some throttle input to keep the car on its heels apexing the exit?

[cheapracer]

In Minis we would just stomp the left foot on the brake pedal to do the same thing. Well amost the same thing, the rears would lock and the fronts would be under load from the right foot.

Different application - They were all well versed in left foot braking for shifting the weight but often you need a quick lock up of the rears epecially in tight stuff. With the left pedal they knew it was far faster than fumbling for the handbrake.

Edited by cheapracer, 31 May 2009 - 09:15.

[BorderReiver]

Do you left foot brake at the same time have some throttle input to keep the car on its heels apexing the exit?

It depends very much on the nature of the circuit really. How much can a 1/4 mile dirt oval vary you may well ask? The answer is a surprising amount.

For example some ovals I go on (C.S.A.C.'s own is a fairly good example of this) is pretty much entirely in terms of line entirely circular and you should never really be off the throttle for long, the whole lap is pretty much a continuous slide (except for perhaps 30 yards over the start finish line and back straight which you're actually travelling the way the wheels are pointing) with the brakes being used primarily to initate sliding (they are heavily biased towards towards the rear in order to keep the car loose and make it very slideable), thus after your initial upchange you stick in the high gear and balance the car on the throttle all the way round, other traffic allowing anyway. It's on circuits like these that left foot braking comes into it's own since you never really want to be off the throttle and you're using the brakes only marginally to keep the car on line and in the right attitude.

There are other tracks that I've been on that may best be described as two straights linked by deep hairpin bends. Here the technique differs greatly as (if you're defending your position, which in Autograss you almost always are) you want to keep the car tight to the inside of the turns and concentrate on good exits. Often traditonal right foot braking with heel and toe through the turns (which necessitate downchanging to ensure correct acceleration out of them) is better here as what matters is getting onto the apex fast and getting out ever faster.

My car (in common with many others in Class 9) is fitted with a 2 by 2 Hewland Box, which is to say a 1st (often called the starting gear) and a 2nd, and a different 1st and 2nd, these two sets being at different ratios one very short, one slightly longer (you only ever think in terms of short gearing on short ovals, acceleration is everything, my car will perhaps get to only 95mph at the end of the straights on a good day of weather, but with a 2.0 Red Top wide Carbed engine in the back beleive me it gets there very, very quickly indeed), which you use is dictated again by the layout of the track and also by the weather and surface conditions at the time.

As for videos, I only have one online at the moment, and it's highly embarrassing.

This is a heat race from C.S.A.C. towards the end of last season. I make a complete balls up of it. Firstly I'm on dry tyres (for reasons I won't bore you with but are down to me gambling on the weather changing, and the race start time and getting both wrong) on a pissing wet bog of a circuit. Then I stall at the start . After that I get away and start makign up time (at a rate I'm fairly proud of in a car that was handling like an amorous pig) until a wildly flailing elbow knocks the car out of gear and I lose more time. So it's back to battling up the field, until I start banging wheels with another driver I'm trying to pass and we both come of worst, so then it's back to battling up the field again . . .

Almost amazingly I didn't finish last though. It was one of those strange races where you do pretty much everything wrong and somehow manage to come out the other end with a result of sorts. The footage runs until the mud and rain completely obscure the camera's vision.

Enjoy. I bloody didn't at the time.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Pardon me sir, but it appears your oval is going in not quite the correct direction.

[BorderReiver]

Pardon me sir, but it appears your oval is going in not quite the correct direction.

Yeh, I wondered about that too initially at the first N.A.S.A. (no, not that one, the National Autograss one) meeting I ever went to I voiced the opinion it was wierd. Coincidentally one of the guys racing there that day was a high-up NASA official and he heard my opining on the subject.

His honest to god answer was that "We're British, and we're not doing it like the Americans!". I tried pointing out that BriSCA and many other british oval racing series and governing bodies all have no problem with going anti-clockwise, but this fell on deaf ears. So in N.A.S.A. races it's turn right and repeat rather than left.

Bit wierd at first, but it makes no real difference aside from you mirror set-up theory what used to be your right-rear offset becomes the left etc.

[Wuzak]

I wonder in which series left-foot braking pedals are allowed or not, or if there are any rules on the matter? Can a WTCC team fit its cars with two pedals and a hand clutch, to improve car feel, or is it forbidden in the rules? The series' I wonder about are DTM, WTCC/Super 2000, FIA GT cars, V8 Supercars et cetera.

Would be appreciative for answers!

There are two drivers I am aware of in V8 Supercras that left foot brake. Those are Greg Murphy, who has been doing it for many years, and Fabian Coulthard (both Kiwis!).

It is a little surprising considering that most of the drivers have had some background in karts and open wheelers that more don't.

[Wuzak]

Greg Murphy:




In contrast (not sure of the driver):

[Catalina Park]

There are two drivers I am aware of in V8 Supercras that left foot brake. Those are Greg Murphy, who has been doing it for many years, and Fabian Coulthard (both Kiwis!).

It is a little surprising considering that most of the drivers have had some background in karts and open wheelers that more don't.

Glen Seton used to left foot brake with the Sierras and then in the Falcons. He was always fun to follow around the track as the brake lights were flashing all over the place especially at Amaroo.

[SeanValen]

The flich throttle technique is a direct contrast to left and right foot breaking. If you could use the accelatror pedal with finite precision like Senna and Schumacher, you come off the throttle, on again, off and on etc with steering corrections as well, sometimes you don't need left or right foot breaking, I call it

THE FLICH THROTTLE TECHNIQUE, Jacque Villeneuve never ever could do it and many others, yence not special, but freeloaders at the party collecting titles in good cars. At least he didn't waste the booze or paycheques.

Edited by SeanValen, 01 June 2009 - 09:27.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Take that trash somewhere else, jesus.

[Lukin]

Glen Seton used to left foot brake with the Sierras and then in the Falcons. He was always fun to follow around the track as the brake lights were flashing all over the place especially at Amaroo.

He still does. Uses the clutch to leave the line and to put it at neutral at a pit stop. It gives awesome brake pressure traces, no fluctuations for throttle blipping so better able to hold the limit of the tyre in braking.

I remember in the Rouelle course, he said about using the steering input (left or right) to adjust the pressure to the left or right calliper to reduce inside front locking. I would imagine you would run a cam off the steering column that adjusted the setting on a proportioning valve so when you turned left it biased pressure to the right front calliper? This would help rear locking in longer braking zones as you can set the brake bias to reduce rear locking with reduced concern of inside front locking.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Would that be legal in most series?

[cheapracer]

Its only illegal if your caught silly.

[Powersteer]

Would that be legal in most series?

Don't know about that but what is interesting would be when the tail slips and correction needed, having the steering all over the place would have the brake bias shooting left to right.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Don't know about that but what is interesting would be when the tail slips and correction needed, having the steering all over the place would have the brake bias shooting left to right.

Only pussies brake in that situation!

[Tony Matthews]

Only pussies brake in that situation!

Yeah! It's what your right foot is for...