56 replies to this topic

[tcbtcb]

Hi ,
Any opinions and suggestions on the topic would be helpful.(masters degree)


Thnx

[Greg Locock]

Cranfield is the most heavily advertised. I'm surprised Imperial even does one. I'd be interested to hear whether a Masters is actually much help in motorsports. In engineering, in Australia, a masters results in a lower starting salary than a normal degree, and a PhD is even worse. In my experience that makes sense (grins).

Edited by Greg Locock, 30 May 2009 - 05:59.

[gruntguru]

Cranfield is the most heavily advertised. I'm surprised Imperial even does one. I'd be interested to hear whether a Masters is actually much help in motorsports. In engineering, in Australia, a masters results in a lower starting salary than a normal degree, and a PhD is even worse. In my experience that makes sense (grins).

Nasty man.

[gordmac]

Have a look at which finishes best in Formula Student. Who actually runs cars in competition? What about Oxford Brookes or Hertfordshire?
Greg has a point but bear in mind (some) first degree standards have dropped a bit. Look at IMECHE requirements? The other thing is if you want to do say aero then a second degree is probably worth it.

[Greg Locock]

Have a look at which finishes best in Formula Student. Who actually runs cars in competition? What about Oxford Brookes or Hertfordshire?
Greg has a point but bear in mind (some) first degree standards have dropped a bit. Look at IMECHE requirements? The other thing is if you want to do say aero then a second degree is probably worth it.

I think FSAE is great for undergraduates, but question its relevance to a Masters. Good point about aero - it probably is worth treating seriously as an academic discipline, that is a Masters would be worth it (and both Imperial and Southampton have good aero programs, I'd give the edge to Southampton). But I still question whether motorsports really makes sense as a masters.

[tahadar]

hope you read this! http://www.grandprix...ft/ft00348.html

[tcbtcb]

hi guys ,
thnx for the replies

The degree at imperial is in aeronautics
at soton(uni of southampton) is in race car aerodynamics
and Cranfield is motorpsorts

none of em actually have an FSAE team....
but ive heard lotsa formual one guys come along and watch the projects done by the Cranfield guys.

But soton and imperial were like sure ways of gettin into F1 till the stupid economic situation came along.

[gruntguru]

hope you read this! http://www.grandprix...ft/ft00348.html

A good promo. I loved the emphasis on the value of "Understanding" over "Knowledge". Anyone with the remotest interest in this forum should read "Not much of an Engineer" by Sir Stanley Hooker". As a freshly graduated theoretician he was responsible for a 30% increase in power from the Rolls Royce Merlin in just 3 months early in WW2.

[Greg Locock]

Well that explains the low starting pay for engineering PhDs, they all go into motorsport.

[gruntguru]

Well that explains the low starting pay for engineering PhDs, they all go into motorsport.

Very true.

[tcbtcb]

Havent made the decision yet...still thinking.
Thing is from where i come from... its hard to get any real motorpsort experince.
I guess they chose me coz of technical bookish kinda knowledge.... but we all know how much that counts in thw motorpsorts world.

I like aerodynamics a lot, and i personally felt( dunno how far its true) that the factor of prior experince would be least if in the domain of aerodynamics(considering not too many ppl wudve hard a wind tunnel or a grid computing system in thier backyard )... breakin in to motorsports would be easier that way. But i still prefer a more rounded exposure.

Hence all my confusion.

[cheapracer]

I this day and age i would say something in polyesters using natural fibres would get a result long term cause thats what many things are going to be made from in the near furture including some race cars or parts of.

If my meanings not clear then i mean alternates to carbon fibre , fibreglass etc.

[GPLEagle]

Not sure how much this helps, but have a look at the current / recent designers and where they have come from.
Dino Toso went to Cranfield, but did the generic Aeronautics course before they did the Motorsport Masters. I believe Pat Symonds also is ex-Cranfield.

[phantom II]

Interview: Pat Symonds.

Job Title: Executive Director of Engineering

Company: Renault F1 Team Ltd

Why are maths and physics worthwhile subjects to study?

They are the basis of nature but the understanding of them is fundamental to manipulating what is natural to improve the quality of life of the human race.

What is your favourite equation and why?

The one that calculates my pay cheque!

How did you feel about maths and physics as a child?

I always enjoyed physics and even at primary school found that the elements of science lessons that pertained to physics were the most interesting. I used to devour any literature that helped explained physical phenomena in a way a child could understand. My relationship with maths was much more of a love hate relationship. I enjoyed applied maths but was always frustrated by the abstract nature of pure maths. In reality, my interest in maths varied in proportion to the quality of the teacher at any particular time.

How has your view about them changed over the years?

My love of physics has remained unchanged but I now find even the abstract parts of maths more enjoyable. In fact I would go as far as to say I have a definite interest in the history of maths and some of the more obscure theories!

How important are maths and physics in your field of work and how often do you use them?

It is interesting that these days many people feel that proprietary computer programmes are so prolific that knowledge of mathematics is no longer required. This is absolutely not true. What is true is that the important knowledge now is the principles of maths rather than mathematical skills. If first principles and the limitations of certain techniques, are not understood then serious mistakes can be made and equally new methodologies will not be developed.

How did you start/end up working within the Motorsport industry?

I joined the motorsport industry as soon as I left Cranfield. At the time I did not consider I would still be in it 29 year later but the industry and the profession have grown in a way that has allowed me to remain in it as a life long career.

How would it have affected your career if you didn't have maths and physics skills?

I simply would not hold the position I hold today. I have needed to develop myself as a multi-disciplined engineer as this is the only way to get to the top and be able to manage specialists. I could not have done this without a good grounding in the first principles of maths and physics.

How essential are the skills of maths and physics to careers within Motorsport?

As essential as in any branch of engineering and that means of prime importance. It is not coincidence that engineering degrees require maths and physics ‘A' levels.

Can you give an example where you have used maths and or physics in Motorsports in an interesting, exciting and/or fun way?

In the early days of electronic control systems such as active suspension and 4 wheel steer we had to accurately model the response of our systems in a mathematical model to ensure that they were safe and stable. This involved understanding the physics and then being able to write sets of differential equations to turn that physics into a form that could be solved by computers.

Which physics equation in your opinion is the most important?

F = ma
The basis of all dynamics

Not sure how much this helps, but have a look at the current / recent designers and where they have come from.
Dino Toso went to Cranfield, but did the generic Aeronautics course before they did the Motorsport Masters. I believe Pat Symonds also is ex-Cranfield.

[Heinicke]

I am ex-Cranfield(didn't finish due to difficulties), it is very good there, good resources. Pat Symonds is still on the steering committee and Sir Jackie Stewart is the Chairman.

SOTON is meant to be very good, apparently Mr Newey went there.

Imperial is where TWR developed the Jaguars.

Edited by Heinicke, 04 June 2009 - 00:02.

[Mark A]

As essential as in any branch of engineering and that means of prime importance. It is not coincidence that engineering degrees require maths and physics ‘A' levels.

I have neither and have an engineering degree and have been working in Vehicle Dynamics for 15 years, guess I was just lucky. (My Engineering HND may have helped)

Edited by Mark A, 05 June 2009 - 11:27.

[tahadar]

if it helps, Nikolas Tombazis (head of Ferrari aero), Dirk de Beer (head of Renault aero) and Peter Prodromou (head of RBR aero) are all imperial aeronautics graduates.

[Paul Prost]

Half of Renault F1 aero department were Imperial graduates when I was there.

Renault would advertise for aero graduates at Imperial, Southampton, Oxford, Cambridge, Bristol and one other Scottish University which I can't remember.

However, the institution matters, but also what you learn in the degree. Unless you can answer basic questions on aerodynamics under pressure in an interview, you won't get a job.

A mate of mine was head of CFD at McLaren, and he used to eat Imperial graduates for breakfast. Perhaps because he was a City University graduate with a chip on his shoulder

I had loads of amateur motorsport experience, however that isn't what got me my job. It was my experience in writing large Fortran codes and my experience with FLUENT working on Submarines and aircraft.

[Greg Locock]

Renault would advertise for aero graduates at Imperial, Southampton, Oxford, Cambridge, Bristol

A fine selection of universities, apart from one.

one other Scottish University which I can't remember

Herriot Watt ?

Edited by Greg Locock, 10 June 2009 - 12:22.

[gordmac]

Strathclyde would be the place for a mechanical degree, Glasgow does (or used to) an aeronautics degree so maybe there?

[LMP900]

From my experience of Cranfield motorsports MSc students, go for Imperial or Southampton, or at least avoid the motorsport-specific course.

[Monstrobolaxa]

Well I exchanged a few messages with Adrian Newey and Dino Tosso in the past...and both of them mentioned Southampton would be the way to go!
At the time I wasn't sure if I wanted Cran or Southampton...!
As it ended out I got lucky and met the right people at the right time...was invited to go to SA! But my Msc thesis would only be ready close to the end of May, so early in the year it was decided I'd start then...but as luck struck they ended up closing before I even started.
So now I'm in A1...and know people who've been in Cranfield. If you want an aero job go to Southampton! If you want something like a data/vehicle dynamicist/race engineer go to Cranfield or Oxford. If you want to be a design engineer go to Oxford. That is my current vision of things.

As for me...race engineering and data weren't what I wanted...but now I'm loving it! But am thinking of returning to aerodynamics/CFD work, as this is my area.

[Greg Locock]

Well I exchanged a few messages with Adrian Newey and Dino Tosso in the past...and both of them mentioned Southampton would be the way to go!
At the time I wasn't sure if I wanted Cran or Southampton...!
As it ended out I got lucky and met the right people at the right time...was invited to go to SA! But my Msc thesis would only be ready close to the end of May, so early in the year it was decided I'd start then...but as luck struck they ended up closing before I even started.
So now I'm in A1...and know people who've been in Cranfield. If you want an aero job go to Southampton! If you want something like a data/vehicle dynamicist/race engineer go to Cranfield or Oxford. If you want to be a design engineer go to Oxford. That is my current vision of things.

As for me...race engineering and data weren't what I wanted...but now I'm loving it! But am thinking of returning to aerodynamics/CFD work, as this is my area.

Um. Oxford? Didn't even have an engineering faculty 25 years ago. I suggets you check their labs, if the labs are not enormous and well funded go somewhere else.

[tahadar]

to the OP: have you decided yet?? when i was applying to uni, these decisions were pretty quick!

[tcbtcb]

Hi,
Thanks a lot all u guys.

Still havent decided, will do so in a week. But i guess it would be between Soton and Imperial. Soton`s got a better course structure for what automtoive aerodynamics and is way less expensive. Imperial would keep more options open.

Anyway really appreciate all the help around here.

[redline]

Let me premise this post by saying that I'm a Southampton graduate from Aero & Astro, so this may explain any bias :-)

My main criteria in choosing a uni was the perceived employability in motorsports following graduation. My shortlist was Southampton, Imerial, Bristol and Cranfield.
I visited all 4 before choosing and did my research within industry. My considerations were heavily based on where current engineers were studying, and which universities had research based collaborations with industry.

The two standouts were Southampton and Imperial, who between the two have many heavyweight engineers in F1 and motorsports. They also have excellent facilities (wind tunnels) which were used by F1 teams. When I was in Soton, Jordan & Reynard had 80% of the time in our large tunnel booked up, because it had a very high quality air flow. During John Barnards time, Ferrari also used the wind tunnel apparently. Imperial has similarly good facilities. Southampton has an excellent prof who specializes in high-lift aero, the improbably named Xhing Zhang (sp?)... Apart from being a great chap, he's highly regarded by F1 teams, and gets some interesting projects. In my group (about 50-60 grads) 4 or 5 ended up directly in motorsports - Jag, Reynard and Jordan as well as US. Most of these went as aerodynamicists if I'm not mistaken. Subsequent years also did well, and I know grads have ended up across the field in motorsports and consulting firms working in motorsports.

With regards to whether a motorsports specific degree is useful, i remember reading interviews with Newey and Head stating that they prefer high quality engineering degrees from good schools rather than specific motorsports degrees. With all due respect to Oxford Brookes, its not in the same league as Imperial et all...

Another plus side to Soton was that they had some excellent Vehicles Dynamics courses as part of their masters programs. I'm sure same can be said about imperial.

A final consideration: I think I would have been equally positive about imperial. I visited several times, and did some gas-dynamics projects with them, and the caliber of people there was superb. HOWEVER, London would have posed too many distractions for me back then, and I doubt that my studying would have been as diligent....

Hope this helps!

Cheers,

redline

[redline]

Forgot to mention - a colleague of mine did the motosports MSc at Cranfield following a degree in mechanical engineering at a top flight school.
He was a bit ambivalent about the practical value of the course, and I get the impression there were better, more relevant ways to spend that time....

PS - Southampton and Imperial do have a heavy aero slant, but it doesn't necessarily tie you into aerodynamics. It depends on what you make of it, as going to these schools will not guarantee you a place flipping burgers in McDonalds, let alone a job in F1. Those names on a CV may attract a recruiters attention, but you better have the right attitude, aptitude and drive to back it up...

Cheers,

redline

[JuanF1]

Hello. I chose to do the MSc at Southampton because it was the only one purely focused on aerodynamics (race car if you wish). I have always liked aerodynamics and nowadays it is better to specialize in something. I can only say that in the last two years more than 80% got jobs in F1. In addition, many teams come here looking for people, also MEng... The wind tunnels are probably the best you can find in academia.

And as redline said, you won't find anybody like Xin Zhang: not only is he a great researcher in f1 aerodynamics but also a friendly person! Good luck and let me know if you come to Southampton.

[TheArmchairCritic]

Next year i'm doing Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Applied Maths for my A-levels. Then I was thinking of doing a MEng in Aeronautical Engineering at Imperial. Assuming everything goes well i'm unsure as to whether i should gain experience in the Aerospace industry before moving on to F1 or if i should do a PhD. I've got the drive, ambition and passion, i just need to get the results (God willing i hopefully will.) Anyway could anyone advise me as to what would be the best route. Should i do a PhD or should i get my MEng, get some experience in the Aerospace industry before moving on to F1.

Edited by TheArmchairCritic, 14 July 2009 - 18:26.

[Tony Matthews]

Next year i'm doing Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Applied Maths for my A-levels. Then I was thinking of doing a MEng in Aeronautical Engineering at Imperial. Assuming everything goes well i'm unsure as to whether i should gain experience in the Aerospace industry before moving on to F1 or if i should do a PhD. I've got the drive, ambition and passion, i just need to get the results (God willing i hopefully will.) Anyway could anyone advise me as to what would be the best route. Should i do a PhD or should i get my MEng, get some experience in the Aerospace industry before moving on to F1.

Always use capital 'I', it is more demonstrative, apart from being grammaticaly correct. And good luck!

[TheArmchairCritic]

Always use capital 'I', it is more demonstrative, apart from being grammaticaly correct. And good luck!

Thanks. Oh and by the way it's double 'l' in grammatically

[Tony Matthews]

Thanks. Oh and by the way it's double 'l' in grammatically

I didn't say I could spell! We all have our weaknesses, me more than most...

[phantom II]

In the Goon show; Harry Secombe as Harry Seegoon.
"How do you spell Seegoon?"
"Two ohs, two ees and two iys."
"Two iys in Seegoon?"
"Yes. How else must I see?"

I didn't say I could spell! We all have our weaknesses, me more than most...

[Tony Matthews]

YYUR
YYUB
ICUR
YY4ME

[Greg Locock]

I'd check on whether a phud will do you any good in your chosen field. In Oz in engineering each higher degree you get REDUCES your starting salary once you get into the real world, according to the HES in The Australian.

[JuanF1]

Next year i'm doing Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Applied Maths for my A-levels. Then I was thinking of doing a MEng in Aeronautical Engineering at Imperial. Assuming everything goes well i'm unsure as to whether i should gain experience in the Aerospace industry before moving on to F1 or if i should do a PhD. I've got the drive, ambition and passion, i just need to get the results (God willing i hopefully will.) Anyway could anyone advise me as to what would be the best route. Should i do a PhD or should i get my MEng, get some experience in the Aerospace industry before moving on to F1.

Well, it is quite soon to start thinking about a PhD, isn't it? You could start by doing your MEng and try to do as many F1 related tasks as possible (wind tunnel projects, CFD, Formula Student...) which can be added to your CV. By the time you are finishing your MEng you will have an idea of where you stand. There might be vacancies or there might not, teams might look for people at your University (at least they do in Southampton), etc. If you finish your studies (or are very close to) and you didn't get a job in F1, then you might think about doing a PhD / working in industry. It is difficult to say which one is better as each case is completely different. I would say you starting salary won't improve just because you are a PhD but it definitely will if you have working experience.

So for the moment the only thing which is crystal clear is to start your degree. Don't worry, time flies!

[TheArmchairCritic]

Well, it is quite soon to start thinking about a PhD, isn't it? You could start by doing your MEng and try to do as many F1 related tasks as possible (wind tunnel projects, CFD, Formula Student...) which can be added to your CV. By the time you are finishing your MEng you will have an idea of where you stand. There might be vacancies or there might not, teams might look for people at your University (at least they do in Southampton), etc. If you finish your studies (or are very close to) and you didn't get a job in F1, then you might think about doing a PhD / working in industry. It is difficult to say which one is better as each case is completely different. I would say you starting salary won't improve just because you are a PhD but it definitely will if you have working experience.

So for the moment the only thing which is crystal clear is to start your degree. Don't worry, time flies!

Thanks for the info.

[tcbtcb]

is it possible to do the Race car aerodynamics course...and try for jobs outside of F1.
Where can one possibly try and get some form of work exp?

[rolf123]

I did my degree at Imperial in Mechanical Engineering. Someone I knew had a summer job at Jordan, worked under Mike Gascgoyne. In part because he helped set up the Formula SAE that Imperial had not entered before. After graduation he went to McLaren and worked there for a few years before moving to Cologne to work for Toyota. Now he's at Red Bull. Wouldn't surprise me if his name becomes known within a few years.

Now he was the only one I know of that went into Motorsports. Of course this is Mech Eng, NOT Aero.

Choosing your degree for a career in race engineering is a tough one. A few years ago, I would say that even though the good jobs look slim (F1 probably has a few hundred engineering jobs in the country total), if you're committed and absolutely focussed and want it bad enough then you'll get there. But in the current climate I just don't know. You can easily get a job in the lower ranks but it will be poorly paid compared to other engineering jobs.

I agree with the advice earlier. It's better to get a solid, reputable engineering degree from a top engineering uni than a bespoke degree from a lesser one. For starters, the difference in standards is huge. I barely scraped a 2:2 at Imperial working my balls off when I could easily have scored a first at a mid-range uni (everyone on my course including me had 3 As at A-level, back in the mid-90s when 3As actually meant something!!! and yet the "curve" set by Imperial meant that only 50% of us could achieve a 2:1 or above).

Add to that, a quality degree will also make you more employable all round anyway.

Crap thing about Imperial is that it's a totally alien, non-British university life. A hell of a lot of people there are doing PhDs and post-docs. A great many are from overseas. And there are hardly any women either! So it's a crap university experience and a decision I have some regrets about. But it is in London and London is a fascinating place to go to uni. In retrospect, I should have gone to UCL. Has UCL fallen from grace? It used to be fairly respected for engineering. Nick Wirth of Simtek went there for example (OK not a GREAT, but still).

Anyway, go to at least a decent standard uni with some reputation in engineering, then make sure you get some experience. A degree is not enough. It's even more important now in this economy. In America, people are even doing unpaid internships but I don't think its that bad here yet. I suggest getting a copy of the Autosport yearly directory (maybe it's online now) and contacting every company. Don't write letters or even emails! Something you'll soon realise when you get older is that sending letters and email get you nowhere. Pick up the horn (telephone) and make some calls!! Try to reach the important people, even if its just for a chat. Get past the gatekeepers (secretaries) by calling when they are not yet at work or have already left for the day: good times are 8-8:30 and 5-5:30. Engineers and successful people who don't work to fixed times will likely get into work early or leave late.

Edited by rolf123, 20 July 2009 - 20:48.

[redline]

Excellent advice from Rolf123.... most of the guys I hired are the ones who went through the time and effort to get to me, hurdling the barriers thrown up by HR and unanswered e-mails.... The guys who really have a passion and desire will get over those walls. Those are the guys you want to be working with when you're still on the job late at night, and are looking at another weekend at work....

I once made the mistake of hiring a brilliant young electronic engineer... he was very sharp, and I'd had him working for us as an intern, where he demonstrated very little drive. I thought I could instill it into him.... I realized I was wrong when I found him asleep in one of the transporters at the first race we took him to :-) He quit three months later citing "too long hours....." and got snapped up by a telecoms company. This just shows that having a good degree, and being smart are not enough if you don't have the hunger and passion to be there in the first place.

Cheers,

Redline

[skuty]

Hi,
I have little different problem. I do not want to know where can i study, but what is better for me. I want to design mechanical components in f1. I do not study at uni, but i am interest in suspension, dampers etc. I do not want to be aerodynamics, but if it is much better way to get into f1, I can think about aero eng. Please tell me when I study aero can I get mechanical position?
Thanks for comments

[gordmac]

Not entirely sure I understand what you are asking. I would expect that F1 teams would want their mechanical designers to have a mechanical degree nowadays. Teams probably have their favourite institutions they employ from and getting in from elsewhere won't be so easy. Not sure that studying aero if you are not interested in it is a good idea, you would be unlikely to stick with it and in my opinion you would be better studying mechanical engineering if that is your interest.

[Greg Locock]

Not entirely sure I understand what you are asking. I would expect that F1 teams would want their mechanical designers to have a mechanical degree nowadays. Teams probably have their favourite institutions they employ from and getting in from elsewhere won't be so easy. Not sure that studying aero if you are not interested in it is a good idea, you would be unlikely to stick with it and in my opinion you would be better studying mechanical engineering if that is your interest.

Aero would be quite a hard degree if you don't really want to do it - a rather odd mixture of too much advanced maths, and experiments that explain less than they confuse. As a famous engineer once said, the worst thing that happened to stress analysis was when the mathematicians got hold of it, the same could be said of fluid mechanics.

[TheArmchairCritic]

Got 10 A*s & 1 A in my GCSE's today should that be ok for Aeronautical Eng.

Edited by TheArmchairCritic, 27 August 2009 - 12:01.

[Tony Matthews]

Got 10 A*s & 1 A in my GCSE's today should that be ok for Aeronautical Eng.

No, you need 11 A*s I'm afraid, it's a dead-end menial job for you, and no pension. Serves you right for just mucking about at school and not doing your homework...

[TheArmchairCritic]

No, you need 11 A*s I'm afraid, it's a dead-end menial job for you, and no pension. Serves you right for just mucking about at school and not doing your homework...

Is it really 11 A*s for Aero Eng or judging by the tone of the rest of the post are you joking. It's difficult to detect sarcasm on forums.

Edited by TheArmchairCritic, 27 August 2009 - 12:11.

[Tony Matthews]

Is it really 11 A*s for Aero Eng or judging by the tone of the rest of the post are you joking. It's difficult to detect sarcasm on forums.

It absolutely wasn't sarcasm, I'm impressed by your passes, congratulations! However, it was a gently joke. You can do whatever you want... good luck.

Edited by Tony Matthews, 27 August 2009 - 12:58.

[TheArmchairCritic]

It absolutely wasn't sarcasm, I'm impressed by your passes, congratulations! However, it was a gently joke. You can do whatever you want... good luck.

Thanks, you had me worried there. The next 6 years will be very interesting.

Edited by TheArmchairCritic, 27 August 2009 - 13:01.

[gordmac]

Not too familiar with the English education system but can you really get 11 A levels?

[TheArmchairCritic]

Not too familiar with the English education system but can you really get 11 A levels?

No GCSE's are the set of qualifications before A-Levels. I'm doing 5 A-levels(Maths,Further maths,physics,biology and chemistry, I'll probably drop one after a year). You need 3 A's at A-Levels to get into the top universities but now you can A*s at A-Levels, so I'll need 3A*s which means doing 5(well 4 and a half) is a bit pointless really as you only need 3.

Edited by TheArmchairCritic, 28 August 2009 - 11:01.