95 replies to this topic

[brabhamBT19]

Hi I was thinking. Nascar grew big in US, but what has the potential to grow that big in europe.

Is it DTM?, LMS? or something else?

I am talking potential here.

[Jambo]

Potential, well F1 first of all is that big, but Europe is not one country like the US. DTM is the premier German motorsport, but talk to people in UK and most will not know about it.

F1 appeals across the board as it is not based in a specific country. I suppose WTCC could be but tin tops don't seem as popular. I love watching the BTCC but that is a British Championship.

[potmotr]

If we could get back to the glory days of the BTCC in the 90s, across Europe we might be getting somewhere.

These days the BTCC cars, and the WTCC, leave me cold.

Australian V8 Supercars are probably as close to Nascar as you'd get with circuit racing, in terms of following.

[djellison]

Hi I was thinking. Nascar grew big in US, but what has the potential to grow that big in europe.

Is it DTM?, LMS? or something else?

I am talking potential here.

F1 already is that big over here. So that 'slot' is filled.

[Hippo]

There is no racing series in the world that can fill the grand stands every week besides NASCAR. I doubt something like that was even possible in Europe.

[Thunder Chat]

yeah, touring car series are so confused these days, so many series run to so many different specs. When it was super tourers in a number of different countries it did work better but the cost became to great. I just read that the BTCC is looking to revamp itself again with lots of common bits and even a common engine available to teams that don't want to develop their own.

In some ways rallying i think is almost a stronger candidate to fill the nascar type space, potential audience wise anyway. From a british perspective when mcrae and burns were winning it was far more widespread in the populace and the media than the btcc has ever been perhaps because its a world (and very european) championship.

Overall you have vaguely recognisable cars (like nascar) drivers who if they're good tend to get great national following, interesting venues, spectacular action, people can actually get up close to whats happening plus it can be an all hour event, twilight rallying with a good crowd provides a great atmosphere. This is of course potential, the WRC at the minute isn't in the best of health as i think they made lots of changes over the years and forgot what it was all about in the first place.

[se7en_24]

There is no racing series in the world that can fill the grand stands every week besides NASCAR. I doubt something like that was even possible in Europe.

DTM does actually get bumper crowds for their races, often in the 100,000s.

[Hippo]

DTM does actually get bumper crowds for their races, often in the 100,000s.

I know. I have been in those crowds too. But it's not comparable to NASCAR. They can get almost half a million people to the races if there's enough grand stands. And they manage to do that twice a year at some venues. Plus they do it 36 times a year. I don't think DTM could attract as much people even if they tried. Also DTM races usually are not as entertaining. But that's more of a personal flavor factor.

[brabhamBT19]

quick remark to those wise guys: leave the the F1 out of this discussion.

Reason: obvious.

Edited by brabhamBT19, 02 June 2009 - 14:34.

[Weekend-at-Bernies]

The lack of oval tracks in Europe for starters makes it incompatible to ever resemble a bonafide "Euro NASCAR". So much of what makes NASCAR what it is, is quintessentially American in nature and I really don't think it would ever translate to Europe. DTM is the closest we have and don't forget the old V8Star series. Bring that back or get that stillborn V8 series on the road that Autosport featured a year or so ago. Closest I think Europe will ever have. FWIW I read that the Speedcar Series has folded....

[brabhamBT19]

The lack of oval tracks in Europe for starters makes it incompatible to ever resemble a bonafide "Euro NASCAR". So much of what makes NASCAR what it is, is quintessentially American in nature and I really don't think it would ever translate to Europe. DTM is the closest we have and don't forget the old V8Star series. Bring that back or get that stillborn V8 series on the road that Autosport featured a year or so ago. Closest I think Europe will ever have. FWIW I read that the Speedcar Series has folded....

no no no no not euro nascar as copy of US nascar, but euro nascar in terms of popularity. nothing to do with ovals at all.

[Weekend-at-Bernies]

My mistake,

In that case....nothing. Unless F1 descends into the worse case scenario we are dreading and whatever picked up the pieces would take a looooong time to establish NASCAR levels of popularity.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I know. I have been in those crowds too. But it's not comparable to NASCAR. They can get almost half a million people to the races if there's enough grand stands.

Errr where? They just look that way because the tracks are tiny. Indianapolis, iirc, is the biggest attendance of the year and isn't as big as the Indy500.

[Beej]

yeah, touring car series are so confused these days, so many series run to so many different specs. When it was super tourers in a number of different countries it did work better but the cost became to great. I just read that the BTCC is looking to revamp itself again with lots of common bits and even a common engine available to teams that don't want to develop their own.

Apart from DTM and V8 Supercars the majority of Touring Car Series run to the same spec, S2000.

[Hippo]

Errr where? They just look that way because the tracks are tiny. Indianapolis, iirc, is the biggest attendance of the year and isn't as big as the Indy500.

Well I was talking attendance over the entire event. At least that's how the numbers are usually given in Europe or Germany at least.

[djellison]

quick remark to those wise guys: leave the the F1 out of this discussion.

Reason: obvious.

In that case...

US = Nascar
EU = F1

So what, exactly, are you trying to talk about?

[Ross Stonefeld]

The crowd's arent that bit Friday or Saturday. They'd have to be sell outs all three days to get near those kind of numbers. A place like Phoenix is 150,000-200,000 at best.

[brabhamBT19]

In that case...

US = Nascar
EU = F1

So what, exactly, are you trying to talk about?

others managed to understand

[DOF_power]

Well I was talking attendance over the entire event. At least that's how the numbers are usually given in Europe or Germany at least.

The numbers where supposed to be an average of ~ 100 000 people per race, witch this year has been a far cry.
The 500 000 is just B*.

[Hippo]

The crowd's arent that bit Friday or Saturday. They'd have to be sell outs all three days to get near those kind of numbers. A place like Phoenix is 150,000-200,000 at best.

What's your point? I never said there were 3 gazillion spectators at every NASCAR free practice. I said they can get almost half a million there (to the event) if there are enough grandstands. Which is quite to the point at least for Indianapolis as well as a couple of others such as Dover, Bristol, Charlotte, Daytona, Vegas.....

Edited by Hippo, 02 June 2009 - 15:10.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I just don't think such wild claims helps whatever arguments you try to make. Bristol has 170k, Charlotte 167k, Daytona is similar.

[Hippo]

I just don't think such wild claims helps whatever arguments you try to make. Bristol has 170k, Charlotte 167k, Daytona is similar.

And all of them have an infield. And may I repeat myself? Friday, Saturday, Sunday...

But whatever. Feel free to deliberately misinterpret me just to win an argument on the internet.

[BMW_F1]

you guys should already know the answer to this. Last year they had a series with 5 year old NASCAR cup cars in Europe in which Frenzen, JV, Liuzzi and other ex-f1 drivers participated in. I can't think of the name of the series now..

found it..

http://www.speedcars.../race/index.php

Edited by BMW_F1, 02 June 2009 - 15:23.

[Ross Stonefeld]

And all of them have an infield. And may I repeat myself? Friday, Saturday, Sunday...

But whatever. Feel free to deliberately misinterpret me just to win an argument on the internet.

So you think they have 150,000 people all three days? Seriously? It's not about being pedantic to win an argument, it's about being factual accurate. It's not hair splitting when your figures are wildly off. If you throw those numbers around people will automatically not take your points very seriously.

[potmotr]

you guys should already know the answer to this. Last year they had a series with 5 year old NASCAR cup cars in Europe in which Frenzen, JV, Liuzzi and other ex-f1 drivers participated in. I can't think of the name of the series now..

Speedcar. I couldn't stand it.

If you're going to run former Formula 1 drivers at least give them something better than a three tonne tank which pitches rolls and wallows all over the track like an ocean liner.

I don't think Speedcar has ever run in Europe has it?

In season one it had a race in Malaysia but since then it has been exclusively in the Middle East, where all its money was coming from.

And long may it stay there, the thought of Speedcar blighting European tracks leaves me cold.

[BMW_F1]

I just realized they did not run a single race in Europe.. Maybe what they need to do is tear down a gigantic football stadium and turn it into a Bristol - let the NASCAR series add this new track to their calendar and that way stock car (oval) racing would attract some European fans..

[ForeverF1]

Days of Thunder/Rockingham Motor Speedway

Days of thunder, which has recently been renamed SCSA (stock car speed association) is a great venue to attend whatever you like. Entertainment goes on right through-out the day with various races, DOT obviously and the pick up truck series, there is usually a support race.

http://imagesb.ciao....uct-5767211.jpg

[pingu666]

moto gp?
europeon races are packed

[Imperial]

NASCAR is in a fairly unique position in motorsport in that it's in people's faces and lives in a way that very few other sports are and in areas that are usually reserved for pop stars or movies with mass-marketing potential. In other words you can find the drivers faces popping up almost anywhere.

I live in England but I know that the top NASCAR stars really are huge household names. I know that there are cardboard cut-outs of drivers in most large supermarkets selling some product or other. I know there are massive marketing campaigns taking place. Living in England I don't need to know that, but I do. That's how big NASCAR is. But it's not just about size, it's about power. NASCAR seems to have a power over it's audience in a way that F1 couldn't dream about. NASCAR driver endorsed products look to be for the everyman. It's easy to like a guy who promotes kids cereal. That's why kids want to eat the cereals they endorse. That's NASCAR guys. Nobody gives a stuff about a bank that a driver promotes. Lewis Hamilton promotes a bank via an advert in which he is an Airfix model-kit. Do kids beg their mothers to open accounts in a Santander bank? Of course not. They're probably asking for the Airfix kit. This is where F1 gets it wrong. Maybe it's something to do with it's inherent snobbery. F1 aligns itself with such boring products. Banks, IT companies and airlines. How interesting. NASCAR advertises M&M's. Brilliant. Which kid wouldn't be screaming for some M&M's when they see their favourite driver standing next to a shelf full of them in a supermarket?

In the defence of most other motorsport, NASCAR is however also unique in that it's based on one continent. It's closest rival in terms of popularity, F1, is a world championship. It is impossible to have sponsors etc in F1 that have a global appeal. That is one area in which F1 loses out.

In terms of size and devotion I honestly don't think any other series will ever compete with it, unless Indycar can somehow transform it's fortunes. The reason I say that is simply because no one single country is big enough for the NASCAR effect to take place. That's why Indycar is the only possible rival in my eyes. People will of course laugh at that, but it isn't so long ago that NASCAR was taken less than seriously across the US, nevermind across the planet. Things can and do change. But any non-US series has to take place across countries far smaller in terms of population or across several countries. That instantly dilutes it's marketing potential on myriad levels and that's why nothing currently challenges NASCAR in the marketing area and why probably nothing ever will.

Edited by Imperial, 02 June 2009 - 18:39.

[noikeee]

I live in England but I know that the top NASCAR stars really are huge household names. I know that there are cardboard cut-outs of drivers in most large supermarkets selling some product or other. I know there are massive marketing campaigns taking place. Living in England I don't need to know that, but I do. That's how big NASCAR is. But it's not just about size, it's about power. NASCAR seems to have a power over it's audience in a way that F1 couldn't dream about. NASCAR driver endorsed products look to be for the everyman. It's easy to like a guy who promotes kids cereal. That's why kids want to eat the cereals they endorse. That's NASCAR guys. Nobody gives a stuff about a bank that a driver promotes. Lewis Hamilton promotes a bank via an advert in which he is an Airfix model-kit. Do kids beg their mothers to open accounts in a Santander bank? Of course not. They're probably asking for the Airfix kit. This is where F1 gets it wrong. Maybe it's something to do with it's inherent snobbery. F1 aligns itself with such boring products. Banks, IT companies and airlines. How interesting. NASCAR advertises M&M's. Brilliant. Which kid wouldn't be screaming for some M&M's when they see their favourite driver standing next to a shelf full of them in a supermarket?

Exactly. F1 started as supported by the masses, but as the years went by they seemed to start going down a path of increasing snobbery that creates a vicious cycle. Banks want to support F1 because it passes the message they have money --> that sort of marketing appeals only to the higher classes --> banks want to support F1 because its fanbase has become the higher classes.

I mean, a lot of people here seem to be IT geeks (I'm part of this category), and mid/high class guys that own BMWs and other high-end cars. There's still a very big share of "normal people", but how long until it becomes more and more a sport that only the rich and the geeks follow? Like some sort of futuristic golf on tarmac?

I don't want F1 to become so in-your-face as NASCAR is (cheap and fake), but going down this path is dilluting the popularity which is the thing that brought the money into F1 anyway. The stupidity has got to the point of placing F1 in a pay channel, it's what happened here in Portugal. Great way to throw away a large share of your fanbase.

[noikeee]

Oh and sorry for making this about F1, just realised you didn't want this discussion to be in this thread. I guess if someone came up with some sort of an European V8 Supercars Championship, it could have that kind of popularity. But nobody's going to do it because the economic climate is terrible at the moment, and there's too many series to compete with.

[DOF_power]

Exactly. F1 started as supported by the masses, but as the years went by they seemed to start going down a path of increasing snobbery that creates a vicious cycle. Banks want to support F1 because it passes the message they have money --> that sort of marketing appeals only to the higher classes --> banks want to support F1 because its fanbase has become the higher classes.

I mean, a lot of people here seem to be IT geeks (I'm part of this category), and mid/high class guys that own BMWs and other high-end cars. There's still a very big share of "normal people", but how long until it becomes more and more a sport that only the rich and the geeks follow? Like some sort of futuristic golf on tarmac?

I don't want F1 to become so in-your-face as NASCAR is (cheap and fake), but going down this path is dilluting the popularity which is the thing that brought the money into F1 anyway. The stupidity has got to the point of placing F1 in a pay channel, it's what happened here in Portugal. Great way to throw away a large share of your fanbase.

I'm sorry about the pay channel issue.
But you've got to be kidding about global popularity.
The sport is more popular then ever (well the ratings will go down this year), because of "snobbery".
What perceive as snobbery others perceive as excellence.

The old personality worshiping farts might be going away, but so what, as long there new waves of Ferrari, Mercedes, BMW fans joining the ranks.


Here's what I mean.

[DOF_power]

F1 ain't gonna be e beaten by NASCAR, or any other motorsport anytime soon, unless Ferrari creates a new series and bring the big manufacturers.

[Bouncing Pink Ball]

No offence, but everything listed as a plus about NASCAR marketing is, and always was, a turn off for me. I don't relate to or generally buy most of the products they advertise, and I don't like "celebrity shills" (I mean that "Famous face eats Cheerios so I must too!" stuff). I often wish the racing, which can be very good at times, could be separated from the whole NASCAR marketing juggernaut. I guess that makes me a snob.

On the topic of the thread – Nothing currently existing jumps to mind.

[benn5325]

such as Dover

You didn't watch last weeks race I take it.

[Hippo]

You didn't watch last weeks race I take it.

Yes I did and this is what I have seen:

http://www.motorspor...z1243825152.jpg
http://www.motorspor...z1243842605.jpg
http://www.motorspor...z1243843211.jpg
http://www.motorspor...z1243843234.jpg

Unlike Charlotte Dover wasn't rained out and delayed a day. But what am I telling you. Obviously I don't have a clue what I'm talking about...

[Burai]

The BTCC had it at one point. The old 30 minute highlights shows were massive on Grandstand. Absolutely unmissable TV that got people tuning in and going to the circuits.

But then they started showing the races live and everyone got bored and tuned out.

[benn5325]

Yes I did and this is what I have seen:

http://www.motorspor...z1243825152.jpg
http://www.motorspor...z1243842605.jpg
http://www.motorspor...z1243843211.jpg
http://www.motorspor...z1243843234.jpg

Unlike Charlotte Dover wasn't rained out and delayed a day. But what am I telling you. Obviously I don't have a clue what I'm talking about...

Nice pictures, but last weekend was the smallest attendance at dover since 2001. Estimated at 100K for race day.
Nascar numbers are going down just like everyone elses.

[V8 Fireworks]

Apart from DTM and V8 Supercars the majority of Touring Car Series run to the same spec, S2000.

Yep I suppose the issue there is that a Carrera Cup does lap time X and costs Y euros, whilst a S2000 does lap time X+5 seconds and also costs Y euros (and even more to develop)...

Perhaps more turbo boost for diesel only tourers with 2.5 L motors for a little more performance?

[Imperial]

The BTCC had it at one point. The old 30 minute highlights shows were massive on Grandstand. Absolutely unmissable TV that got people tuning in and going to the circuits.

But then they started showing the races live and everyone got bored and tuned out.

They keep tinkering with the weekend too much too. I'm off to see BTCC at Croft in just over a week and I'm a little sad that I'll be watching three short sprints instead of a largish sprint and a massive race. I'm looking forward to the supports more to be honest.

Edited by Imperial, 02 June 2009 - 22:17.

[V8 Fireworks]

Oh and sorry for making this about F1, just realised you didn't want this discussion to be in this thread. I guess if someone came up with some sort of an European V8 Supercars Championship, it could have that kind of popularity. But nobody's going to do it because the economic climate is terrible at the moment, and there's too many series to compete with.

Cars with worked over V12/V10/V8 engines (M5, AMG etc) and lots of aero would cost as much as GT1 cars presumably.

They would essentially be GT1 cars with more doors and a bit slower.

It could still be a good class however.

Of course, a question is do European viewers also want to see the cars leaping over kerbs and running into other? In which the aero should be reduced, and tyres that are not as low profile used etc...

[brabhamBT19]

Oh and sorry for making this about F1, just realised you didn't want this discussion to be in this thread. I guess if someone came up with some sort of an European V8 Supercars Championship, it could have that kind of popularity. But nobody's going to do it because the economic climate is terrible at the moment, and there's too many series to compete with.

and nothing new also

we are looking what has the potential to became "euro nascar" from this poll

LMS
DTM
WTCC
BTCC
GT2, GT3, GT4

and simmilar existing series

[djellison]

and nothing new also

we are looking what has the potential to became "euro nascar" from this poll

LMS
DTM
WTCC
BTCC
GT2, GT3, GT4

None of the above.

Fact.

[Ivan]

Yes I did and this is what I have seen:

http://www.motorspor...z1243825152.jpg
http://www.motorspor...z1243842605.jpg
http://www.motorspor...z1243843211.jpg
http://www.motorspor...z1243843234.jpg

Unlike Charlotte Dover wasn't rained out and delayed a day. But what am I telling you. Obviously I don't have a clue what I'm talking about...

Hippo,
If you really watched this race than you'll know that the pics you have are of the main Grandstands only. the OTHER HALF was completely empty! It was funny watching how they were deliberately trying to not show the wide angle when the cars were on the other side of the track. It would switch to closeups of the cars.

[slideways]

I don't really see the point in this thread. Both the tintop and open wheel series have been fairly stable over the past decade why would there suddenly be a big shift in support to a particular series? Why exclude F1 from discussion since it's already bigger than NASCAR and any European categories?

[Bob Riebe]

There is no racing series in the world that can fill the grand stands every week besides NASCAR. I doubt something like that was even possible in Europe.

All you have to do is find a pre-existing series that has a fifty year history and was started by some like Big Bill France.

I.e. cannot be done, at least in your lifetime.

Too many forget that into the eighties, NASCAR was just another, mostly regional, U.S. racing series, with one well known, partly due to road racing, very fast track.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 03 June 2009 - 04:50.

[OfficeLinebacker]

LOL@ asking a question, already knowing the answer, and forbidding the answer.

I'd love to see them fly the NASCARs over to Europe and see them race around Spa and Monza and yes, even Monaco!

They used to fly 'em over to Japan and race 'em at Motegi.

About global sponsors: in NASCAR they don't run the same liveries all the time. They have one-off and even three-off and six-off sponsors/color schemes/tie-ins.

They used to run special paint schemes for the Summer Daytona race where there were like eight cars tied into different Looney Tunes characters, one was Wile E Coyote, one was Bugs Bunny, etc.

I have an in-law that works as a sponsorhip broker in NASCAR. A primary sponsor will buy an entire season for a top flight car and then sell off various races for more than 1/36th of the cost of a full season.

Anyway, no reason why in Spain all the Hendrick cars couldn't run a Santander livery while say the Rousch cars would run some other bank's livery, even if the race was called the Santander 500.

The possibilities are endless. Too bad we won't explore them.

Edited by OfficeLinebacker, 03 June 2009 - 05:07.

[Ross Stonefeld]

They used to run special paint schemes for the Summer Daytona race where there were like eight cars tied into different Looney Tunes characters, one was Wile E Coyote, one was Bugs Bunny, etc.

I have an in-law that works as a sponsorhip broker in NASCAR. A primary sponsor will buy an entire season for a top flight car and then sell off various races for more than 1/36th of the cost of a full season.

Apparently Aflac did that with Edwards, to the tune of about 26mil. Newman-Haas did a similar thing with K-Mart. They bought the cars and then did vendor deals with associate sponsors. So Maxell VHS tapes paid some money into the team and KMart gave them better in store displays, better shelf space, etc. There were years where KMart would put in say 10mil a car, but get 12mil back at the end of the year from the team. They won lots of races, KMart made money off of sponsoring a team, the team had more money than they knew what to do with, etc etc. Similar deal with Andretti-Green and 7-11, Target are following a similar model and Waltrip are doing it with Aaron's (look at Reutimann's suit sponsors sometime).

Personally I've always liked Roger Penske's NASCAR approach of getting rid of all those awful associate sponsors and running the cars as clean as he's allowed.

And the not-Verizon sponsorship of Stremme's car is marketing bliss. Very very cleverly done, but it had to be given the restrictions.

[jeze]

I don't think there will ever be a Euro NASCAR! If you look at it cloesly there is no reason why not, but the interest of car manufacturers and fans for a genuine European Supercar championship seems to be below freezing. What would be needed is to ditch the meanless WTCC series as well as merging a new concept into DTM, with cars looking like DTM cars, but a bit narrower, with higher top speed and lower downforce, as well as a bigger variety in where the championship goes! Such a championship would need lots of new street races as well as some oval races to get such racing exictment as in NASCAR. I'm saddened with the fact that we only have two real ovals in Europe, since I love oval racing, and would like to see more of that here! The main thing to me is that overtaking is just as possible as with the S2000 cars today, but that the cars maintain DTM performance at a reasonable price. That could be solved with spec engines made by different manufacturers, so that engine costs don't become an issue. The manufacturers would then design and build there own cars with the basis of a road car concept, but they would still have to use some spec material to save costs. By then, they could sell lots of cars to privateers, as well as setting up factory teams. Another important case in this prosposal is that they shouldn't be allowed to tweak the cars design or have any upgrades during a season. That would give privateers the same chance to win as the works teams, setting up a huge interest in such a series. How could the calendar be then? I'd like to see some of the biggest touring car festivals of each year on the calendar, as well as a few new built ovals, comprising the calendar with 20 races. The finance would be no problem once the teams take the low cost for high performance into account, and the names of the races would be sold to sponsors. The income of those selling would go to the teams, as well as TV money, while a promotor wouldn't get as much as Bernie. That would mean they'd have the money to go racing! I would hold the races on Saturdays, to avoid collisions with F1 or MotoGP, which could spoil TV ratings, as well as spectator numbers!

A possible calendar for 2021 could be:
28/3 Algarve
5/4 Monza
19/4 Hockenheim
26/4 Lausitz 400
10/5 obscure oval
24/5 Rockingham 300
7/6 Grand Prix de Pau
14/6 Grand Prix de Ardennes (Spa)
28/6 Norirsring
5/7 Montjuïc Park
19/7 Streets of Porto
26/7 Nürburgring
9/8 Silverstone
23/8 Streets of Munich
30/8 Brands Indy
6/9 Lausitz oval
20/9 obscure oval
27/9 Rockingham
11/10 Le Mans
18/10 Imola
25/10 Mugello

Just a dream, but if you don't dream, it won't happen

[brabhamBT19]

there are a few guys over thare that I am worried about

I asked what can grow as big as Nascar over here in europe

Than they say F1

Do you understand F1 is already bigger than Nascar, it cannot grow to the Nascar size, It can only shrunk to Nascar size.

Now can we cut F1 from this discussion forever

Edited by brabhamBT19, 03 June 2009 - 08:29.