95 replies to this topic

[Ross Stonefeld]

Racing on Saturday afternoon puts you in competition with football though.

[jeze]

Racing on Saturday afternoon puts you in competition with football though.

True, but a good example on saturday racing working is the Swedish Toruing Car Championship this year, which has increased its spectator ratings at the first two rounds, despite the financial crisis. So in that sense, there's no F1, MotoGP or DTM to worry about for the organisers, who can choose which days they want (for example on national holidays, like the next race!) I think that could be a good concept for small series to adopt.

[Henri Greuter]

Hi I was thinking. Nascar grew big in US, but what has the potential to grow that big in europe.

Is it DTM?, LMS? or something else?

I am talking potential here.

I think it could have been touring cars if the Germans had cooperated back in the early and mid nineties.

BTCC and some other championships were good and had potential
Regrettably Germany went for those Hi-Tech Class 1 cars, preferrably of German heritage, Mercedes if possible and went on their own ever since.

Had Germany also embraced Class 2 and then you could have got a European championschip and from there oan the WTCC.
Sadly, Herr Aufrecht et al couldn't live without those "UeberTourrenwagens" of then and now.



Henri

[brabhamBT19]

I don't think there will ever be a Euro NASCAR! If you look at it cloesly there is no reason why not, but the interest of car manufacturers and fans for a genuine European Supercar championship seems to be below freezing. What would be needed is to ditch the meanless WTCC series as well as merging a new concept into DTM, with cars looking like DTM cars, but a bit narrower, with higher top speed and lower downforce, as well as a bigger variety in where the championship goes! Such a championship would need lots of new street races as well as some oval races to get such racing exictment as in NASCAR. I'm saddened with the fact that we only have two real ovals in Europe, since I love oval racing, and would like to see more of that here! The main thing to me is that overtaking is just as possible as with the S2000 cars today, but that the cars maintain DTM performance at a reasonable price. That could be solved with spec engines made by different manufacturers, so that engine costs don't become an issue. The manufacturers would then design and build there own cars with the basis of a road car concept, but they would still have to use some spec material to save costs. By then, they could sell lots of cars to privateers, as well as setting up factory teams. Another important case in this prosposal is that they shouldn't be allowed to tweak the cars design or have any upgrades during a season. That would give privateers the same chance to win as the works teams, setting up a huge interest in such a series. How could the calendar be then? I'd like to see some of the biggest touring car festivals of each year on the calendar, as well as a few new built ovals, comprising the calendar with 20 races. The finance would be no problem once the teams take the low cost for high performance into account, and the names of the races would be sold to sponsors. The income of those selling would go to the teams, as well as TV money, while a promotor wouldn't get as much as Bernie. That would mean they'd have the money to go racing! I would hold the races on Saturdays, to avoid collisions with F1 or MotoGP, which could spoil TV ratings, as well as spectator numbers!

A possible calendar for 2021 could be:
28/3 Algarve
5/4 Monza
19/4 Hockenheim
26/4 Lausitz 400
10/5 obscure oval
24/5 Rockingham 300
7/6 Grand Prix de Pau
14/6 Grand Prix de Ardennes (Spa)
28/6 Norirsring
5/7 Montjuïc Park
19/7 Streets of Porto
26/7 Nürburgring
9/8 Silverstone
23/8 Streets of Munich
30/8 Brands Indy
6/9 Lausitz oval
20/9 obscure oval
27/9 Rockingham
11/10 Le Mans
18/10 Imola
25/10 Mugello

Just a dream, but if you don't dream, it won't happen

all that effort in vain

you completely missed the point

I am seriously worried about you too

[jeze]

all that effort in vain

you completely missed the point

I am seriously worried about you too

Erm?

[benn5325]

If there's already something bigger than Nascar in Europe, why would we need something else?

[jeze]

Brabham// What I meant was that no series can be like that in Europe of what we have now, we seriously need a new one, if that should be the case. Mine was just a prosposal for a new championship that could rival F1 in Europe, but apparently I'm out sailing somewhere?

Edited by jeze, 03 June 2009 - 13:42.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Target are following a similar model and Waltrip are doing it with Aaron's (look at Reutimann's suit sponsors sometime).

Personally I've always liked Roger Penske's NASCAR approach of getting rid of all those awful associate sponsors and running the cars as clean as he's allowed.

And the not-Verizon sponsorship of Stremme's car is marketing bliss. Very very cleverly done, but it had to be given the restrictions.

Yeah I was showing pics of JPM's car to a friend and she said TUMS? Is TUMS the sponsor? I told her no, the main sponsor is Target, but all these other things (Energizer batteries, TUMS antacid, Polaroid films & cameras) can be purchased at Target....

The Verizon thing is starting to come into it's own now that they're using Allgaier and his car in ads and stuff. I bet the casual fan couldn't tell the difference between Stremme's car and Allgaier's.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Question for my colleagues across Europe:

How do you think real NASCAR races in Europe would go? I mean start out with some Nationwide races like they've done in Montreal and Mexico City. Then, eventually, a situation like they have with the NFL in London. I guess the natural first choice would be England, then move up.

Eventually have say 5-10 dates in Europe, points paying and everything.

I'm all for a truly global race series that sort of somehow merges the sensibilities of F1 and NASCAR and races ALL OVER! Tin tops, super low tech of course, from Alabama to Dubai to Suzuka to Spa!

[BMW_F1]

Question for my colleagues across Europe:

How do you think real NASCAR races in Europe would go? I mean start out with some Nationwide races like they've done in Montreal and Mexico City. Then, eventually, a situation like they have with the NFL in London. I guess the natural first choice would be England, then move up.

Eventually have say 5-10 dates in Europe, points paying and everything.

I'm all for a truly global race series that sort of somehow merges the sensibilities of F1 and NASCAR and races ALL OVER! Tin tops, super low tech of course, from Alabama to Dubai to Suzuka to Spa!

that's what I suggested but IMO it cannot be Nationwide.. it has to be the main series going to race in Europe and perhaps 5 races is too much.. 1 event per calendar year as a start should be ok. A short-track oval would be a perfect venue.

[cheapracer]

no no no no not euro nascar as copy of US nascar, but euro nascar in terms of popularity. nothing to do with ovals at all.

Ok, ok I think I get it - your saying that F1 should go to small block V8's, use American drivers such as JPM and Jeff Gordan and run at ovals then?

[Bob Riebe]

Ok, ok I think I get it - your saying that F1 should go to small block V8's, use American drivers such as JPM and Jeff Gordan and run at ovals then?

Either that or they do not have even the slightest idea of how NASCAR got where it is.

I will pick the latter.

[noikeee]

there are a few guys over thare that I am worried about

I asked what can grow as big as Nascar over here in europe

Than they say F1

Do you understand F1 is already bigger than Nascar, it cannot grow to the Nascar size, It can only shrunk to Nascar size.

Now can we cut F1 from this discussion forever

all that effort in vain

you completely missed the point

I am seriously worried about you too

I don't understand... what are you actually looking for?

Edited by paranoik0, 03 June 2009 - 17:55.

[Thunder Chat]

He wanted to know if any series could capture the imagination of the public in europe the way that nascar does in america

In my view nascar has a different type of fanbase to F1, and a different style of support, and this is what he was looking for, what would be like that for europeans? (not nascar europe, v8's and cars that don't mean much to the euromarket, and not a discussion/argument about F1 vs nascar, just people thinking about what that could be)

I thought maybe WRC, though people find it easier to connect with 'racing' perhaps, so then you look at racing with the sort of cars that sell in big numbers in europe, which leads you to some kind of touring car racing.

[djellison]

I don't understand... what are you actually looking for?

I don't know what the hell he's trying to get at - he's being damn obtuse and rather insulting about it.

[slideways]

It's probably some kind of language barrier ...

[brabhamBT19]

Brabham// What I meant was that no series can be like that in Europe of what we have now, we seriously need a new one, if that should be the case. Mine was just a prosposal for a new championship that could rival F1 in Europe, but apparently I'm out sailing somewhere?

the topic is what has the potential to grow like nascar grew in us

so it implies two things

1.It already exist
2.It hasnt grow yet

So F1 doesnt fit, because it grew already, and your series doesnt fit discussion because it doesnt exist. capisci?

Edited by brabhamBT19, 04 June 2009 - 08:17.

[djellison]

the topic is what has the potential to grow like nascar grew in us

so it implies two things

1.It already exist
2.It hasnt grow yet

So F1 doesnt fit, because it grew already, and your series doesnt fit discussion because it doesnt exist. capisci?

The answer is nothing.

Discussion finished.

Great - we can all move on.

[brabhamBT19]

Question for my colleagues across Europe:

How do you think real NASCAR races in Europe would go? I mean start out with some Nationwide races like they've done in Montreal and Mexico City. Then, eventually, a situation like they have with the NFL in London. I guess the natural first choice would be England, then move up.

Eventually have say 5-10 dates in Europe, points paying and everything.

I'm all for a truly global race series that sort of somehow merges the sensibilities of F1 and NASCAR and races ALL OVER! Tin tops, super low tech of course, from Alabama to Dubai to Suzuka to Spa!

Dunno. Really dunno. I adore Nascar and I enjoy watching it, but I'm not relevant since I am considered wacko over here. I dont know maybe it would gather half-full grandstands on venuel like lausitz, but on road I'm not sure.

[brabhamBT19]

The answer is nothing.

Discussion finished.

Great - we can all move on.

ok so you move on then nobody is forcing you to post or to discuss

[brabhamBT19]

He wanted to know if any series could capture the imagination of the public in europe the way that nascar does in america

correct!

but of course coming from obscurity

Edited by brabhamBT19, 04 June 2009 - 08:27.

[djellison]

but of course coming from obscurity

Why? Why this resistance to F1? It is F1 that has mirrored Nascar in the EU.

You keep asking what 'COULD' do this. Something already HAS done this. Now you're asking for something to do it AGAIN.

It's not going to happen. Europe has it's premiere motorsport, like the US has its. The analogy to Nascar only serves to render your question fundamentally moot.

Seriously - what, EXACTLY, is your point.

[wewantourdarbyback]

If we could get back to the glory days of the BTCC in the 90s, across Europe we might be getting somewhere.

These days the BTCC cars, and the WTCC, leave me cold.

Unfortunately the cost of the supertourers was completely unsustainable.

[brabhamBT19]

Why? Why this resistance to F1? It is F1 that has mirrored Nascar in the EU.

You keep asking what 'COULD' do this. Something already HAS done this. Now you're asking for something to do it AGAIN.

It's not going to happen. Europe has it's premiere motorsport, like the US has its. The analogy to Nascar only serves to render your question fundamentally moot.

Seriously - what, EXACTLY, is your point.

can somebody explain to this man what F1 is, because english is only my 3dr language.

[cheapracer]

can somebody explain to this man what F1 is, because english is only my 3dr language.

F1 is a predominately European racing series predominately with European based competitors with predominately European based tracks with predominately European based Fans and of course predominately European drivers.

Hope this helps, this thread needs all it can get.

[brabhamBT19]

F1 is a predominately European racing series predominately with European based competitors with predominately European based tracks with predominately European based Fans and of course predominately European drivers.

Hope this helps, this thread needs all it can get.

exactly. and how can that be an answer to this:

tell me, what can grow as big as nascar grew in US over here in europe?

The question itself implies that it hasnt grow yet, but has a potential to grow. how hard is that to understand?

Edited by brabhamBT19, 04 June 2009 - 10:29.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I would say nothing, because F1 already occupies that slot. But not in the same way as NASCAR. F1 still has regions due to the EU being made up of different cultures and countries. You won't get many Fernando Alonso ads in Britain or Sebastian Vettel ads in Italy; but you will get Jeff Gordon in all 50 US states.

[jano]

I know. I have been in those crowds too. But it's not comparable to NASCAR. They can get almost half a million people to the races if there's enough grand stands. And they manage to do that twice a year at some venues. Plus they do it 36 times a year. I don't think DTM could attract as much people even if they tried. Also DTM races usually are not as entertaining. But that's more of a personal flavor factor.

I do not think it is series related.
IMO it is more down to people. And there is a huge difference in what people in Europe and US are interested on spending their money and time on.

[brabhamBT19]

I would say nothing, because F1 already occupies that slot. But not in the same way as NASCAR. F1 still has regions due to the EU being made up of different cultures and countries. You won't get many Fernando Alonso ads in Britain or Sebastian Vettel ads in Italy; but you will get Jeff Gordon in all 50 US states.

wasnt that same slot in US occupied by CART before NASCAR rise?

[cheapracer]

The question itself implies that it hasnt grow yet, but has a potential to grow. how hard is that to understand?

Substainability is considered growth at any time there is depression of various types, not only has F1 shown constant substainability at any point of various markets depressing but in the last 30 years is has actually grown in good times to another substainable point.

People **** all over Bernie but he is almost totally responsible for that and must be an awesome business manager.

How many series can we name that have risen to the top just to disappear in a few years time?

Edited by cheapracer, 04 June 2009 - 10:57.

[Ross Stonefeld]

wasnt that same slot in US occupied by CART before NASCAR rise?

Not really, neither had a dominant claim, though NASCAR now has a monopoly.

[brabhamBT19]

Not really, neither had a dominant claim, though NASCAR now has a monopoly.

Nascar was a regional series in 70s through mid 80s, according to TNF, and various other sources

while CART was already big in 80s, and in early 90s it challenged F1, now that is dominance in terms of US

[Jambo]

Potential, well F1 first of all is that big, but Europe is not one country like the US. DTM is the premier German motorsport, but talk to people in UK and most will not know about it.

F1 appeals across the board as it is not based in a specific country. I suppose WTCC could be but tin tops don't seem as popular. I love watching the BTCC but that is a British Championship.

Am going to quote myself from the start of the thread.

It can't work like that because as Ross just said, Europe is a very different beast to the US. Europe is a lot of separate countries foined together. A very different prospect. Nothing is going to work across the board but that is why F1 works.

Also CART whilst talked up as a competitor to F1, and I personally loved it, wasn't really. It was only talked up as so.

Edited by Jambo, 04 June 2009 - 11:07.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Nascar was a regional series in 70s through mid 80s, according to TNF, and various other sources

while CART was already big in 80s, and in early 90s it challenged F1, now that is dominance in terms of US

Don't believe everything you read on bulletin boards.

[brabhamBT19]

Don't believe everything you read on bulletin boards.

it was sarcasm FCS

BTW I watched CART with my own eyes in the early 90, I know it was almost on the level of F1 in terms of popularity

[brabhamBT19]

Hi I was thinking. Nascar grew big in US, but what has the potential to grow that big in europe.

Is it DTM?, LMS? or something else?

I am talking potential here.

since some other guys started to quote themselves I see nor reason why I shouldnt.

So lets see, oh look, I wanted to talk about potential.

Do you understand what potential means?

[Ross Stonefeld]

it was sarcasm FCS

BTW I watched CART with my own eyes in the early 90, I know it was almost on the level of F1 in terms of popularity

It didn't have anywhere near the worldwide reach or audience numbers of F1.

[brabhamBT19]

It didn't have anywhere near the worldwide reach or audience numbers of F1.

OK, but it was bigger than NASCAR. It was, its a fact.

Then Nascar grew, because it had a potential, it wasnt only due to split was it?

[brabhamBT19]

Now we have a simmilar situation F1 is about to split. And I ask what has a potential to grow and to utilaze on that split.

And then the folks came and say F1.

how much dumber can it get? tell me

[Jambo]

since some other guys started to quote themselves I see nor reason why I shouldnt.

So lets see, oh look, I wanted to talk about potential.

Do you understand what potential means?

Do you know what manners are?

Also if you know everything why bother asking?

Edited by Jambo, 04 June 2009 - 12:02.

[brabhamBT19]

Do you know what manners are?

Also if you know everything why bother asking?

manners must heve been the plural of manner

I ask because I do not know what semi-obscure series has potential to grow big and to eventualy overgrow F1 in the end. Just like NASCAR did in US

Edited by brabhamBT19, 04 June 2009 - 12:07.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I don't think any does.

[Jambo]

Didn't think you knew what they were.

None of them is the answer to your question.

[Cenotaph]

I know. I have been in those crowds too. But it's not comparable to NASCAR. They can get almost half a million people to the races if there's enough grand stands. And they manage to do that twice a year at some venues. Plus they do it 36 times a year. I don't think DTM could attract as much people even if they tried. Also DTM races usually are not as entertaining. But that's more of a personal flavor factor.

I assume that ppl might just not be willing to spend money to see a race. The last two years we had Red Bull Air Race Series in Porto and the crowd was massive (around 1 million last year), this in a country with 10million ppl overall.

[Villes Gilleneuve]

Hi I was thinking. Nascar grew big in US, but what has the potential to grow that big in europe.

NASCAR is not as big as NASCAR says it is. They have historically been fudging numbers for years.

[Dolph]

NASCAR is not as big as NASCAR says it is. They have historically been fudging numbers for years.

Source please or this is just another troll post