40 replies to this topic

[G-R]

No, this ain't flamebait, I gotta know this for an english essay, so why do you think Schummi is arrogant (what made you think as him so? Track behavior etc)

[pa]

Hmmm. Sorry, mate, this is a short question with a long answer. Dig through the Atlas archives - I'm sure you come up with something.

[Frans MSH]

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh sure you will! HahaHAhahaHAHA

what a question, HahahaHAHAHahaHaha

answer: "dUh"

[norfolk's tear]

I also used to think Michael was arrogant, for real reasons - he just somehow was, thats it. Nowadays I've smoothed my opinions about this side on him.

Hes changed somehow, to become "normal". Dont know if its just what Weber tells him to be and act like, or is it just that he's got not so hostile opponent anymore (mika), so he doesnt have to be so defensive and agressive/arrogant, and give so unpleasant picture of his character as he more frequently used to do. Of course when someones (me) biases slowly melt the attitude chnages also. I cant deny I used to have prejudices towards Michael, which have dispelled for the most part (not wholly) during the last year.

I quite like the bloke now.

[G-R]

That was some good stuff norfolk, thanks.

[Ray Bell]

I think I'd have a tear if my standards had fallen that far, too...
His supposed arrogance, IMO, is from the way he holds his chin.. maybe he's being arrogant, maybe he's not, but people will draw all sorts of conclusions from things like that.
Pushing Damon off at Adelaide was certainly an act of extreme arrogance.
Or, as Bill Burrell put it:
'An arrogant trust in his human right
the right to trample the world at will
the right to pilfer, to rape, to kill'

[MacFan]

Same reason DC is perceived as being a whiner - media portrayal. The tabloid media, particularly in the UK, still has a "Battle of Britain" mentality, transforming the Hill/Schumacher battles of a few years ago into some kind of reenactment of World Wars 1 & 2, and setting Schumacher up as the evil Hun.

That said, MS does seem to believe in his own infallibility more than any other F1 driver - or is that just the way the media portrays it too?;)

[daveturbo]

What is arrogance?
Maybe it's more confidence than ability. Everyone seems to agree that Michael is extremely confident, but it would also appear that he's extremely able. More confidence than ability? Matter of opinion, but probably not, meaning that he's not arrogant.
Maybe it's a lack of respect for your opponent. Certainly Michael gave the impression of not holding Damon, JV or Coultard in high regard. But then they didn't respect Michael so is it arrogance on his part or simply a reflection of what he got from them? Also, if these other drivers weren't as good as him, maybe it was honesty rather than a lack of respect!
In the end it's all media hype, if you think that you know the character of a man from the 2d image created in the illusion of television then get real, Don't believe the hype!

[baddog]

much of schumachers supposed 'arrogance' can be attributed to four things.

1: His manner. Michael, like many of his countrymen, can appear bullish and forward in victory, and this, combined with the way english sounds when spoken by a german, makes him seem overconfident and possibly arrogant.

2: The English (and the bulk of motorsports media is English) tendency to perceive Germans as arrogant. Any given succesful German is, in England, arrogant until proven otherwise. This is pretty much indisputable. The roots of this prejudice are easy to see over the last hundred years.

3: A desire in some areas, born from the fact that his chief rival in his early years was a very popular but possibly slightly underachieving englishman, to perpetuate 2: above in order to diminish the man and his achievements.

4: The undeniable fact that Michael, like most truly succesful sportsmen and women is in fact arrogant. He really believes himself, as he must, to be the best racing driver in the world, and entirely deservin of his status and reputation.

What is another, and to your question irrelevant, matter, is the fact that to some, anyone who succeeds and doesnt look like a startled rabbit utterly stunned by an ordinary chap like them actually winning something is therefore bad. I dont agree. Arrogance is a necessary part of the makeup of a champion, and has been part of that of every 'great' racing driver.

Shaun

[Frans MSH]

"Arrogance is a necessary part of the makeup of a champion, and has been part of that of every 'great' racing driver. "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bullshit..... plain simple bullshit....



all I wanna say about it.... really

[baddog]

well frans, name a 'great' racing driver who wasnt arrogant in any way.

the following dont count because they certainly had/have some arrogance in their makeup (I dont talk of those long before my time and thus who I know nothing about, I advise you to do the same)

Jackie Stewart
Gilles Villeneuve
Niki Lauda
Emmerson Fittipaldi
Nelson Piquet
Alain Prost
Ayrton Senna
Nigel Mansell
Michael Schumacher
Jacques Villeneuve

The nearest thing to a questionable case is Mika Hakkinen, but much of his apparent 'humility' may be a cultural perception on our part..

[norfolk's tear]

OK. Arrogance is definitely not a simple concept. And true, media can twist things a lot, its hardly ever totally independent, even though it of course should be.
But also - I just have to say - i've always been a little tired of peoples inability to see any generally negatively comprehended aspects in their idols. The ability to turn everything looking nice and even supportable can sometimes be admirable, though.

[baddog]

I dont like arogance in people. I consider it to be a dislikable trait and one that in everyday life is not a positive thing.

Its a pretty common facet of those who are sufficiently driven to be world class sportsmen though. In the modern sports arena, lacking that harsh edge of arrogance (or if you prefer 'unusually high self confidence') leaves you vulnerable to opponents who do have that 'advantage'

Shaun

[sveinna]

In my book he's definately not arrogant. I've heard people say this a number of times, and then I've asked them to explay why they make such claim and none of them has been able to point out something to me which makes him arrogant.

I lived in Germany 94-97 and learned German and could see many interviews with him in German, and he has always come over as a nice guy. He obviously cares about others, since he has committed himself to safety issues and supports children aid in poor countries.

But most important of all, I think judging peoples characters simply by how they appear in Press meetings and how they drive is not wise.

with regards,
Sveinn Arngrimsson.

[karlth]

Originally posted by baddog
well frans, name a 'great' racing driver who wasnt arrogant in any way.

Based on the definition of arrogant: "conceited; overbearingly proud" then I'd consider the following WCs "non arrogant"

Schumacher, Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Hulme, Hakkinen, Prost, and the 3 Hills. I'm not familiar enough with the likes of Ascari and Farina.

A strong self belief is a necessary element in any great racing driver but that is not the same as arrogance.

In regards to Schumacher he is in my opinion a ruthless personality but hasn't really shown the symptoms of an arrogant person, whereas Mansell would be the classic case.

[baddog]

karl, defining arrogance in that (certainly correct) way I agree with you. using its more common usage, (ie someone who is supremely self confident, considering themselves to be better/more important that others) I think they all are.

Shaun

[CA]

I tend to agree with the statement that he's super confidant rather than arrogant. Every top sportsperson I've known have always impressed me with the total belief in themselves and their ability. In fact they constantly tell me in my various sporting failures that it's my self doubt which holds me back (that and a lack of talent). The common theme is total self belief in themselves, I imagine you could say the same thing across all sports, if you don't have confidence you won't be successful.

[Frans MSH]

When he wins, he's walking past the pits with his chin higher than his nose his chest in front and smilling for his own succes.

clapping his hands for himself.....

ARGHEWWW, then telling the media he didn't expected this "blablabla" and chin up, chest in front..... Arghweww....


Schumacher and arrogant are the same words....

[Zoe]

Originally posted by sveinna
I lived in Germany 94-97 and learned German and could see many interviews with him in German, and he has always come over as a nice guy.

I agree with that, also that judging people on how they are being presented by media is dangerous (but usually the only way for us fans to make ourself a picture of the guy in question).

Actually, Schumacher is pretty much a family person, still hanging with his school friends as his time permits; also playing with the local soccer club in the Swiss village where he is living. I think lots of his public appearance is just a wall to shield himself of the pressure (and the media) put on him, as well.

Zoe

[RedFever]

it's a common phenomenon for people who achieve huge success apparently with ease.

Schumacher: is considered arrogant

Prost: was considered very arrogant

Senna: was considered ultra arrogant

Lauda: was considered very arrogant

Mansell: some even found Nigel to be arrogant


Basically with the exception of Nelson Piquet, all the drivers who have dominated the past 25 years of Formula 1 are or were considered arrogant. Part is also that these guys are very much in the eye of the press and audience more than they care too. At some point, you need to draw the line and close yourself in your own privacy. But that might piss off the next guy that wanted to interview you and, well, the next article will say what an arrogant prick you are.......

[Maldwyn]

Definitions of arrogance:

1) unpleasantly proud and behaving as if you are more important than, or know more than, other people.
2) The act or quality of taking much upon one's self; that species of pride which consists in exorbitant claims of rank, dignity, estimation or power, or which exalts the worth or importance of the person to an undue degree; proud contempt of others; conceitedness; presumption.
3) overbearing pride evidenced by a superior manner toward inferiors.
4) a feeling or an impression of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or presumptuous claims.

[Maldwyn]

Originally posted by baddog
The English (and the bulk of motorsports media is English) tendency to perceive Germans as arrogant. Any given succesful German is, in England, arrogant until proven otherwise. This is pretty much indisputable. The roots of this prejudice are easy to see over the last hundred years.

Totally agree. Remember "Fawlty Towers" anyone? MS didn't help himself by deliberately eliminating DH from the WDC in '94. An image of the arrogant German was cast in stone at that point and mud sticks.

[Maggie Thatcher]

I would say the manner in which he has criticised other drivers as if he has never done anything wrong himself.

[Williams]

G-R if you are seriously (?) doing a report on this topic, I would suggest you do some REAL research by picking up a book called "Michael Schumacher - The Request for Redemption" by James Allen (ISBN 185225-2723). There is a whole chapter called "The Real Michael Schumacher" which deals specifically with this topic, and, funnily enough, there is a entry under "Schumacher, Michael - arrogance" in the index with a list of pages mentioning the word "arrogance". That should give you lots of material.

Actually you will probably find that the book refutes the viewpoint that MS is arrogant, more than it supports it, but it it'll you a handle on why some people think of him that way.

[cosmoK]

Originally posted by Maggie Thatcher
I would say the manner in which he has criticised other drivers as if he has never done anything wrong himself.

Which means you think DC is arrogant as well?

[RedFever]

and JV too?????

[Loz]

I can't remember where I heard it or read it, but one F1 reporter made a quote along the lines of...

"Ayrton Senna drove like, and beleived that, God had given him a gift. While on the other hand, Michael Schumacher drives and acts like he IS gods gift".

Its attitude, and whether you come accross as sincere and honest in public. Michael does not. Even this latest "Jerez 97 regrets" thing smacks of self importance. No apoligies to JV or anything, just trying to turn a situation, that he finally admits was his mistake, into a sympathy campaign.

Loz

[Jecko]

Originally posted by Loz
I can't remember where I heard it or read it, but one F1 reporter made a quote along the lines of...

"Ayrton Senna drove like, and beleived that, God had given him a gift. While on the other hand, Michael Schumacher drives and acts like he IS gods gift".

That is exactly the point. Some reporter with a bias makes a comparison of two drivers who can be considered to have/had the same level of self-confidence and makes a stupid opinionated comment. Then people suck it up and form the same opinion because it is easier to dislike that driver after someone gives you a reason.

[sideshow_s]

Do you remember Michael after Jerez 97 where he thought Jacques was to blame for there accident. Brazil in 92 where he dug into Senna driving tactics (He said Senna let him pass him and then he got back in his slipstream and passed straightaway, just because he could?) Canada 98, what a great great example. Slagged of Hill for weaving three times down the back straight then came out of the pits all the way across the track straight into Frentzen as he was braking from 180mph putting him off. In the post race conference he asked "To escuse myself, I have not seen the video yet". Things like that make you think hes arragont. I think mainly is a split decision on who support in a two way battle for the championship ie Schumi/Hill, and Schumi/Hakkinen. My mum loves Michael now but when it was him and hill he was "Arrogant". Personally I dont find anyone arrogant thats just the way you have to be in F1. Just supremly confident and self assured.

[CA]

sideshow_s,

You bring up Canada 98 and the Frentzen incident, and there's always been a question about that I've wondered about. When Schumacher pitted the safety car was out and the field was under fully waved yellows, which if I understand the rules means no passing for position. Now when Schumacher left the pits he was ahead of Frentzen,but travelling slower, while Frentzen was booting it along the straight, as the waved yellows were out, shouldn't Frentzen have seen the Ferrari leaving the pits and pulled in behind Schumacher?

I guess my question is, when you leave the pits (cross the speed limit line), does that mean you're back on the track and if the yellow flags are waving can't be passed, because if that was the case I believe Schumacher was clearly ahead of Frentzen, but travelling at a lower speed which allowed the two cars to close so quickly.

Any thoughts?

[G-R]

Williams, the report isn't on Schumacher being arrogant, it's about schumacher, I gotta write about him basically. The arrogance part came into it, and the teacher goes "It would help this if you write more about this part (the arrogance), why was he considered arrogant? Was it the things he done or what?"

So I came here to see why people though/think he's arrogant.

I think I've got enough information here, thanks for it all peoples:)

[Maggie Thatcher]

Yes, much as I like DC and JV, I would say they are a bit arrogant, although I think the arrogance of all three pales into insignificance compared to EI.

[MacFan]

G-R, you're lucky getting to write about Schumacher for English. When I was at school we had to write about Hamlet or Death of a Salesman. If it had been about F1 drivers I might have paid some attention

[Williams]

G-R, did your English teacher really say "Was it the things he done or what ? "

Just kidding

[G-R]

Williams, to that effect yes. She wants me to write why schumacher was considered arrogant.

Yeah, I suppose we are lucky, we have quite a bit of freedom in our english.

Last year, I done a whole topic report on Overtaking in F1, and also when we had to make a "product" I made Michael Schumacher World Grand Prix video game. It had the CD case and all, but not a proper game;)

[MacFan]

Originally posted by G-R
Yeah, I suppose we are lucky, we have quite a bit of freedom in our english.

Last year, I done a whole topic...

Obviously the freedom extends to the use of the language...

[HP]

Schumi arrogant?

Well you should read an interview that was taken after Suzuka on the Italian fan page. Schumi acknowledges there that he wasn't sure if he had the strength to drive the car in Suzuka. Very interesting. Doesn't sounds to me that he is overconfident or arrogant. But I think I know why people perceive MS to be arrogant. I always feel that this happens when he tries to be someone he really isn't. That happens to soo many public figures all over the world, that I don't even bother about it anymore. People and the media want to be their heroes to be like they think a hero has to be.

Here is something you can do that will be interesting. Ask other people that know you well and are not afraid of telling the truth, how they think about you. I never meet a person that wasn't surprised or shocked about the result....

My point? Most, if not all people are projecting who they want to be, but are afraid to show who they really are. All I can say, Schumi showing a bit of his real self in that interview, made me like him even more. He just admitted he can be vulnerable, and that was great IMO.

Regarding the German thing. There are two sides to the coin. Many older German friend's said to me that they sometimes feel ashamed about what happend in WW2. Don't want to analyze it, but that goes a long to explain Germanys reactions when they got another superstar. Boris Becker and Steffi Graf (two tennis players) where hiped up the same way. Both were considered arrogant at times, but all I know is that Boris Becker is one of the funniest guys you'll ever meet. So yes, the German's unwillingly add to the "arrogant Kraut" picture, it's part of overcoming the past. But have a German as your good friend, and all those prejudices fade away quickly.

[Hooster]

It`s rather inevitable, isn`t it? A young driver who is the best, believes he is the best and hasn`t got the maturity or for that matter language skill to hide it is going to be labelled as arrogant.

Anyone who is the best at anything, thinks so himself and is not afraid to say so is going to be labelled by as arrogant by many people.

I think Schumachers humble image these days is a reaction to this. He is tired of being critizised for arrogance so he acts humble.

In my opinion MS has never been arrogant. He is simply the best and he knows it. There was a time when he said so but a lot of people didn`t like it.

[Harald]

I suspect I may be the oldest person on this web site. In any case I go back past Michael to other drivers who, in their respective generations, got tagged as 'arrogant', 'presumptuous', 'overbearing' and a host of other things that Andy would block off this forum if I even tried to post them.

I remember, in 1984, that Senna was supposed to have said something after that sterling first drive of his in the wet at Monaco that he would have done better if he had not been 'thrown off' by all the poor driving - and, therefore, drivers - ahead of him on the track. Some in the F1 press went ape: the nerve of that little Brazilian twerp!!

At Watkins Glen I used to hear people call Niki Lauda a 'f###ing Kraut' ostensibly because he 'called 'em as he saw 'em', as the baseball saying over here goes.

Then there was Nelson Piquet and Nigel and Keke Rosberg. . .

I could go on, but the point here is, first and foremost, that the best driver out there automatically becomes a target, of both legitimate ambition to knock him off and, frankly, of somewhat more narrow-minded envy.

Speaking as a huge admirer of his, Michael does not always help himself in either his dealings with the press, the F1 public or his own colleagues on the grid. I doubt that there has not been a time - Jerez 1997 obviously comes to mind - when even Michael's most fanatical followers haven't sighed and said 'Oh s###t, now why did he have to do - or say - that?'

After following F1 for 32 years, and trying to write about it for one, I conclude that, like most top-drawer athletes in their chosen fields of endeavour, Michael is often competing first and foremost against Michael. Ayrton was that way, as were Fangio and Jim Clark. There is clearly an argument that these drivers stand out so far from most - I did say most - of their competition that, in a sense, there is often no one else to race against.

Athletes that single-minded often get themselves into trouble because that single-mindedness is often misinterpreted as rudeness, dismissiveness, aloofness or just plain the personality of an a##hole.

What's more, athletes who are often 'off somewhere inside their own head' racing the next race, taking the next long jump or the next jump shot, or making the next shot on goal can't - or can't seem to - be bothered with a newscaster asking 'What's it like out there Mario?' or even a fan persisting in asking for an autograph.

Mind you, all these drivers are more than compensated for putting up - if that is the right word - with this kind of aggravation, if that is what it really is. But if you or I refuse to take time out in a restaurant to discuss business, that is our prerogative. Or it is generally conceded to be such.

When Michael, last year, refused to allow a photographer to take pictures of him together with Mika at a restaurant in Brazil (where they both coincidentally ended up dining with their wives), it got shot round the world as yet another example of what a flaming ar#e he is. Never mind that Mika later agreed with and defended Michael by saying he, also, didn't think it appropriate for either of them to be intruded upon like that. Never mind, in fact, that even Commander Ronnie - not known for efusive praise of What's-His-Name from Karpen, Germany - agreed that it was out of order for the photographer to act as he did.

I counted the posts on one web site - not this one - about that one incident. Well, let's say I stopped counting at 126. Almost every one of them took this as some confirmation of whatever it is about Rolf Schumacher's oldest boy that so inflames what I estimate to be about 80% of the entire F1-oriented public.

Half that - 40% - seem to just hate the man's guts. His driving skill - now acknowledged as 'clearly the best there is' even by Overdue-to-be-Sir Jackie Stewart who is no ranting, raving Michael fan - counts for nothing. He cheats, he only wins when FIA gift him a win in the back paddock after the race is over {since, as we know, FIAT SpA-Ferrari have FIA in their back pocket }, or when Mika's car sucks or Mika DNFs or is DQd, or when everyone else gets caught out in the wet on dry tyres.

{About that last qualifier, I shudder to think what this group will eventually start to attribute Rubens' success to if he has another couple of wins like his first one at Hockenheim this year. . .}

When Mika or DC protect their line into or through a corner, it is brilliant defensive driving. When Michael does it: another example of his bullying tactics on the track. (Which, that notorious Ferrari stooge, Charlie Whiting always conveniently overlooks. . .) A blazing sharp start by Jacques is just that. If Michael does it, he has something dodgy in the car and FIA don't have the guts to 'call' Ferrari on it.

Michael - and now his father - said he long ago resigned himself that this segment of the F1 world will never objectively evaluate his achievements in this sport until 'long after I am gone.' So, maybe GinaMaria will be around to read this lot's histories of her daddy's days on the track and we can all understand better what it was about Michael that so incensed this group.

Now. The other 40% appear to have the attitude Sir Stirling Moss expresses (eloquently as usual):

I am under no intellectual strain to abhor Michael's antics while, at the same time, admiring, revelling in, his matchless skill once he is in the car

This group also seems to include a number of WDCs who are professional enough to recognize a peer and another great one when they see him, but don't particularly like - or actually detest - some of the controversial things Michael says or does.

Then there are those of us in the remaining 20%, most of whom are probably either too young to remember Ayrton when he was at the same stage in his career that Michael is now. Or. Who, like me, are old enough to remember that there were Michael-class 'arrogant' drivers before him and their certainly will be after him.

Hemingway called greatness 'grace under pressure.' Maybe the Ayrtons, Laudas and, certainly, the Schumachers define 'arrogance' as 'peerless skill laid bare.'

And, for those who think Michael crossing the paddock will take this kind of so-called arrogance out of F1. . . Well, I will quote the man directly:

Look: I am here to race. I don't worry that much about the rest of it. I have things to learn, sure. But, if you do well on the track, no one will care about all the other stuff. It is all b###sh#t.

--- Juan Pablo Montoya to F1RACING

So, keep your essay file open for the next arrogant Great. And put your F1 Spanish dictionary right beside your F1 Portguese and German volumes.

Does any of this help you with your essay?

Harald
DC
USA[p][Edited by Harald on 10-18-2000]

[Mila]

Williams, your book suggestion sounds helpful. I seem to recall that in a book titled, "Racers," by (strangely enough, your namesake) Richard Williams, some space was devoted to MS--not on the arrogance issue per se, but on his roots, economic background, and so forth. so I don't know, G-R, if some inference could be drawn from this material.

[Zoe]

Now look who's giving the finger to the fans...



Glad that this is anything but arr.....

Zoe