64 replies to this topic

[ZippyD]

What's your opinion of the current F1 scene?

I wanted to make the subject "what's wrong with the current F1 scene" but I didn't want to be that negative. It's not all bad but IMHO it's definitely lacking something compared to the great racing we have seen in the past or read about.
Is it the drivers?
I don't think so. Schumacher, et al are as good as any mix of drivers from any era.
Is it the machinery?
I don't think so. While the current batch of F1 cars are no match for the cutting edge technology of other eras(ground effects, turbo charging, monocoque chassis) they are still blindingly fast and maneuverable.
Interesting circuits?
This is a big problem in the current era. Modern circuits are very safe compared to circuits of old but they lack any personality. Who is going to look at the Hungaroring and say "WOW, what a drivers circuit!!!" They are getting to point where they look like one another. If I see a picture of a corner of a modern circuit I have a lot of problem discerning the circuit unless there is an obvious landmark in the shot. They are also very narrow which makes passing difficult but not impossible. More about this.
I think the biggest problem with F1 racing these days is the lack of passing. As I mentioned above the circuits are narrow which makes passing difficult but the greatest detriment to passing is scheduled pit stops. We should assume the people who drive F1 are reasonably intelligent. What driver in his right mind is going to try a bonsai dive to the inside when he knows he's coming in for fuel and tires in 4 laps and he can probably get the pass in the pits? Real exciting stuff eah? Even though it was not as common in the past as some people remember a race long duel was something to see or read about. Think Amon - Rodreguez, Lauda - Hunt. In order to get some "racing" back in racing we really need to get rid of these boring pit stops.
Sorry for being so long winded. I must have too much time on my hands.

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"Pete, Do you sometimes get tired? Of the driving? Lately I have been getting tired. Very tired."

[f li]

ZippyD,

What wrong with Gran Prix Racing? - Three words "Too Much Money!" What happened to the banner on Lotus' transporters - "Racing for the Glory of Britain" - it got replaced and modified to "This space for let" on Rindt's helmet.


Today, could "Collins" have let "Fangio" take over his car? could "Moss" have told the truth or would he have stayed silent? Could "Brabham" have pointed to "Clark" that his tire was going flat? Not with all that money at stake!

Perhaps I should blame the improvements in safety. Senna punted Prost because with "today's" cars he could get away with it. Used to be that "touching at speed" was fatal for someone. At the DFV's first outing, Clark was said to have told Hill that he kept to the agreement. (For those of you who don't know Clark and Hill agreed that the pole sitter would win although they would "make a show of it". With Clark in the lead Hill DNF'd so Clark continued on to win.) Is there any place today for a Ronnie Petersen? Remember the Prost Senna agreement?

[Keir]

They say no one smiles in an F1 paddock these days. I can't agree with that statement 100%, but the drivers today are a pretty grim bunch. All business and no pleasure. Are there any Hawthorns out there?
How about a Hunt or two? Is there anyone as human as Brooks or Amon or Gilles? Where are todays Rodriguez and Sifferts? They say Irvine is a playboy, but is he like Portago?
I think not. That's problem #1.

Then , paint all the cars white, take off all the sponsors tags and the numbers and see if you can tell one car from another.
That's problem #2

Take away Spa and Suzuka and you have got
slot car circuits.
Problem #3

Wings, pit stops, grooved tires, chicanes, pit lane speed limits.
Problems #'s 4,5,6,7,and 8.

It's time for a change, a big change!!!

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"I Was Born Ready"

[Nomad]

In the Aus GP official program, dear old max states that F1 is 'not for the racing enthusiast' and that we have 'plenty of other formulae' designed for us to watch!

Any one have any suggestions on which one it should be?

[Jonathan]

Formula One suffers from two distinct problems.

1. Not enough close wheel to wheel racing. Too many races are reduced to nothing more then processions, nobody dares to drive off-line for fear of loosing it in the marbles.

2. Not enough allowance for engineering creativity (nowadays known as "cheating"). There are just too many overly restrictive rules.

Additionally there maybe a third issue that there is so much emphasis on safety that almost all of the new circuts are very dull and bland: Large run off areas, too many "artificially flat" courses with typically boreing infield squiggly bits. These types of courses, while they manage to keep speeds way down and make more of the course viewable to spectators, just dont inpire the same sense of excitement that Spa, Brands Hatch, or the old Nurburgring circuts do.

The increasing restrictive rules represent an attempt at keeping the racing closer, and in keeping things as safe as feasable.

Sometimes I can't help thinking that excesses of money & technology have ruined this sport.

In spite of all these perceived problems, I still think of Formula One as the ultimate in motorsports.

[Jonathan]

Nomad

"F1 is 'not for the racing enthusiast' and that we have 'plenty of other formulae' designed for us to watch!"

Many lower-class forms of motor-sports offer far more excitment I think.

"Cart Racing" as a form of motorsport provides much closer wheel to wheel action for instance.

Ironically the less power and the less money that goes into motorsport, the closer the racing tends to be.

[Ray Bell]

If F1 isn't for the enthusiasts, then who is it for?
The multitudes, the masses who don't understand it at all!
Therefore, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, it's more about spectacle than skill. About crashes rather than clashes, about inversions and perversions, about money rather than sport!
Yes, there is too much money. Yes, they do feel too safe if they can do the things Schumacher did at seasons' end twice.
The passions and the science are all that are left for us....

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[BRG]

Well, either way, Mad Max is stuffed

If F1 isn’t for racing enthusiasts, then it must be spectacle for the "masses" - but that is what NASCAR does, very successfully, very spectacularly and very lucratively. F1 doesn’t hold a candle to NASCAR in that respect., so Max’n’Bernie are doing a crap job.

But if F1 is for racing enthusiasts (as it should be, and I imagine most of us thought it was), then Max’n’Bernie are still doing a crap job ‘cos most of us are royally ticked off with the lack of racing.

Talk about condemned out of his own mouth. After this, I think the only honourable course would be for Mosley to resign - fat chance of that happening of course!!!!




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BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[Keir]

I don't really find NASCAR to be that interesting, successful yes, but interesting, not really. Close racing on ovals isn't really hard to come by. As for CART, you're kidding right??? Put enough poor drivers together in a field of very similar cars and you get close racing, but
take those same drivers and put them in F1 and you get Zanardi!! Please don't mention Villeneuve, anyone could have won the championship driving for Williams that year!
As for present F1, there is nothing that doesn't need changing. Let's start with Max!!!!

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"I Was Born Ready"

[ZippyD]

Another problem Max and Bernie have is trying to turn F1 into a show.
I think they are jealous of Cart and Nascar pulling in all those fans and all that money. What they fail to realize is that F1 and American racing come from very different backgrounds. F1 has it's roots in technical innovation. The great point to point races at the beginning of the 20th century in Europe and in America were showcases for the speed and durability of the top car makers of the time. On the other hand Cart and Nacsar have their roots in the fair grounds of the same era. It was just another part of the amusement park experience. Just another reason for people to come to the parks and stay longer and spend more money.
Perhaps trying to turn F1 into a show will draw more people initially but after a while the people who couldn't tell a F1 from a Cart or a F3000 car will find some other "vioture de jour" to amuse themselves and once again Bernie and Max will be stuck with us "racing fans". Poor Bernie will have to hock his cars and homes as his stock goes down the tubes.

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"Pete, Do you sometimes get tired? Of the driving? Lately I have been getting tired. Very tired."

[Ray Bell]

I have often said that the race promoter's first job is to cater to the enthusiast. His second is to avoid offending the enthusiast.
The enthusiast is the core of his income, the masses are the cream when they can be attracted.

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[desmo]

Wise words one and all. Pity no one's listening.

[CVAndrw]

Hmmm...to be fair, if you read Max's statement as "F1 isn't meant for the RACING enthusiast", well, I can't really disagree. And it's not his fault, either. It's the logical evolution of technology and the money that feeds it- I wouldn't want either one artificially held back, no matter how pure the motive. And I'm glad about all those endless billions of non-enthusiasts who watch it on TV- it means I can, too. He's right, as well, about there being other series- there's vintage racing (which I love) and NASCAR (which I don't), both of which fill needs entirely different from F1 and have every right to exist.

Think about it- is Hakkinen in the MP4/15 really any different from Moss in the W196? When has F1 not been about technology and money? I'm afraid the one big difference between then and now is safety. And for those who think the demand for safety at all costs has ruined F1, well, how else would you have it? Don't forget the world wide, front page headlines on May 2, 1994. In the horrible weeks that followed, I recall people like us praising Max for his statesmanship in perhaps saving F1 from being summarily banned, and at the same time his refusal to overreact and rip the soul out of it. Be logical- can you imagine the classic Oesterreichring or the 8 mile long, Masta straight Spa in the current cars? The lap speeds would almost certainly be 200 mph or over, and while it might be fun to watch for the first half lap, I don't think trying to stage the terrestrial eqivalent of the space shuttle explosion every two weeks is something anyone's going to get away with in this day and age.

I think the current F1 scene is just fine, thanks. It isn't perfect, but it never has been. My favorite season has always been the one about to start.

[This message has been edited by CVAndrw (edited 03-11-2000).][/B][/QUOTE]

[Keir]

CV Andrw,
Did I just read that you compared Hakkinen to Moss?
Now , I like Mika, but Moss is still the
"maestro", on and off the track. Mika is a wooden indian in comparison.
Today's drivers lack character, just like the circuits they drive on. It's really hard to get excited about Hungary. Thank goodness for places like Spa. And speaking of Spa, today's cars would have no problem with the original circuit, the drivers might, but the cars would be fine.

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"I Was Born Ready"

[This message has been edited by Keir (edited 03-11-2000).]

[Xaxor]

Keir, judging by your opinions on CART, I'm just wondering; have you ever been to a CART race?

[Keir]

Xaxor,
My experience with CART goes back to Trenton Raceway in my home state of New Jersey, I was at every Medowlands Grand Prix as a licenced observer for the SCCA. I've met my share of race drivers over the years and this latest group of CART drivers are without a doubt an insult to the drivers that came before them. Where are the Foyt's and Andretti's and Unser's? Please don't say Michael and little Al!!! I've seen Mario and Bobby and big Al and the kids don't measure up. When Mario couldn't cut it in F1 any longer, he was still a front runner in CART. That should tell you something. Look at Paul Tracy for example, a front runner in CART, but in F1, he'd be in the gravel so much, his main sponsor would be "lawn doctor"!!!
I do find CART fun to watch, but you can't compare it to F1, the level of driving skill required in F1 is too high. Zanardi and Michael Andretti proved that.

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"I Was Born Ready"

[f li]

Max didn't lie - F1 is 'not for the racing enthusiast' IT'S for MONEY!!! The joy of doing something and doing it extremely well has been replaced by being well paid for doing it.

[KzKiwi]

What is wrong with modern day Formula 1?

There is an air of inevitably about the results these days. This is fairly proportional to the size of the team budget (due to the corporate world reality) as well as the fact that there is not enough passing (due to the 'sterile' rules).

Regardless of whether you like or hate the American oval racing championships they do have regular passing and drafting, and the race winner is never a foregone conclusion. This is due to the rules in place and the Americans desire to create a damm good spectacle. Formula 1 is much more focused on the 'corporate image'.

An interesting development over the last few years of the F1 seasons has been the 'down to the wire' battle whereby the drivers championship is not decided until the last race of the season. Using the 'barge board' debacle of last year as an example could it be that Max and his team are attempting to control the outcome and timing of each seasons championship???

What are the odds of the 2000 championship going to the last round??

The real problem with F1 these days is that Gordon Murray is missing!!

Loosen the rules up and bring back Gordon and his creative thinking abilities.

[Joe Fan]

My opinion of the current F1 scene? I won't reopen old wounds but I will say that grooved tires and the use of exotic compounds like Beryllium need to be banned to tighten up the competition. I wish the powers that be would make rules to level the playing field in the engine department and give more freedom to the constructors in car design and aerodynamics. I think it is sad that Formula One has become more predictable than the weather and that the weather is usually what makes it unpredictable on occasion.

[CVAndrw]

Compare Hakkinen to Moss!!! How much of an idiot do you think I am? (Sounds like another thread right there.) I admit I'm acquiring more respect for Mika all the time- I used to think he was just another Swedish meatball, along the lines of Peterson and Rosberg: very fast, but a “bungalow” (nothing upstairs). But now I would simply say that he’s got all of Mansell’s virtues and almost none of his faults.

No, I was making a point about one team using overwhelming technological superiority as a club to intimidate the rest of the grid being nothing new. And as an aside, the masterful driver(s) of said vehicles removing a lot of the suspense from the game. If you want to expand the comparison further, I might point out that Senna and Prost at McLaren, who also had no competition outside the team, at least offered the entertainment of hating each other. So you could say that Fangio, Moss, Neubauer, Uhlenhaut, etc. were probably as frustrating to the “racing” purist as anything today, and the way to appreciate this was to admire the perfect synthesis of man and machine and all those other clichés that are just as true now as they ever were.

Perhaps I should simply compare those of us who will always be complaining about the good old days (which this will be ten years from now) to those of us who don’t like truffles- so much the better for those of us who do!

[CVAndrw]

And as for today's drivers lacking character- well, Niki Lauda is eloquent on the subject. They simply don't have the time. Seventeen GPs, testing, public relations idiocy- who's got the time to develop friendships or at least cameraderie with one’s colleagues? Today’s contracts prohibit non-championship GPs, one-off stints in endurance or sedan races, no one needs to scrounge for starting money- it’s amazing that a driver is allowed the freedom to display any emotion at all.

[Makarias]

I like Swedish meatballs.

[Dennis David]

Me too. I'll take SuperSwede any day and I wouldn't confuse laconic for being dim-witted.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/



[This message has been edited by Dennis David (edited 03-12-2000).]

[Dennis David]

Let's face it. As somebody who has lived a little nothing is like the old days. Let's just remember them and enjoy the new days.

If I thought for a while I would be hard pressed not to shed a tear for my heroes, these were real heroes who I followed in their prime who are no longer here like Colin, Jimmy, Graham, Jo, Ronnie, Gilles, Pedro and Ayrton.

Forty more minutes and it's a new season and I don't feel any less excited.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[f li]

How dare you mistake Mika for a Swedish meatball! He's a Finn not a Swede!

[CVAndrw]

Excuses, escuses. And, on the dearth of character(s) today: in the good old days, no one ever stopped to remember that old saw my Dad used to repeat over and over:

"'Tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt".

Mika just tries too hard to be dignified, that's all. You never saw Piquet, Hunt or Ireland afraid to step right out and act the buffoon, to their everlasting glory. Now all we can do is wait for Coulthard's next pratfall.

So perhaps that IS one shortcoming of today's scene: instead of inspired, intentional tomfoolery and Manney's "Practice was the usual shambles" we've got drivers listening to their spin doctors too damn much and people having to insert those damned smiley faces all over the place.

There, I admitted one way the good old days WERE gooder.

[Keir]

Answer this question,

Wouldn't you just love to see the driver's press conference break into a "Marx Brothers" skit, rather than the usual boring exchanges, just once??

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"I Was Born Ready"

[CVAndrw]

I always get a little wistful over the enormous practical joke possibilities inherent in those vats of yellow fluid they keep swilling down. If Piquet were still around, you know that just once he'd fill somebody's pitcher with REAL donkey pee.

But as it is, I've found the best way to endure those awful conferences is to block everything else out and concentrate on how many weird positions Schumacher can twist his mouth into.

[Walrus]

We have seen few times those "jokes" there,example when Häkkinen threw the whole jug of water on Irvine`s neck( Don`t remember where or when.)

[Psychoman]

If memory serves right, it was Germany last year Kinda makes me wish Bobby Knight was a driver--he'd make a good show out of the press conferences...

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"Hey there, all you middle men
Throw away your fancy clothes
And while you're out there sittin' on a fence
So get off your ass and come down here
'Cause rock 'n' roll ain't no riddle man
To me it makes good, good sense"
-Brian Johnson

[f li]

Bring back the Pitboards! Ban the use of telemetry and / or radio for all except unencoded emergency broadcasts. Let the damn drivers provide the feedback to the engineers.

Does anyone remember that famous Lotus driver whose engineers caught him frantically trying to reset the tell tale? My understanding was that the engineers replaced the tell tale with one made of brass. Ireland (I think thats who it was), who typically overrev'd, used a magnet to reset the telltale. The brass one caught him out.

[This message has been edited by f li (edited 03-14-2000).]

[Falcadore]

Was talking to one of Bernie FOM data guys in a pub in Melbourne on Monday night and he told me the Irvine-Hakkinen story from a first person perspective. It was Canada and Hakkinen had made a fake toss of his glass at Irvine, but stopped himself saying he wouldn't actually do that. Like a red rag to a bull Irvine emptied the jug on Hakkinen and left the conference at speed. Hakkinen excused himself and gave chase leaving a confused pack of journalists to try and get a rivetting conversation out of David Consternation Coulthard.

[RAD]

Nope, I'm not saying anything. It has all been said before.

I'm just hoping Button gets caught partying with his freinds more. Then I'll know that these guys aren't just a bunch of bland super-humans.

C'mon Eddie buy a mansion in Monaco and stuff it with gorgeous women!

It would even be neat if Minardi got caught smuggling Italian military secrets to Argentina to pay the airfare. Right.

[magnum]

Rosberg was also a Finn.
I think what's missing most of all are the drivers - whereas guys like Clark were found running broken down cars in the Highlands and brought to F1, nowadays F1 drivers are all well connected rich boys - they do it primarily for the money - I do not think that 60% of the field could sit with guys in lower formulas in saloon cars for instance and blow their doors off. There's just no meat here - I keep reading about how difficult it is to pass in these new configuration F1's - but I sometimes wonder what Mansell, Senna, Prost, Gilles and co. would have done - would Gilles have sat behind Frentzen as Rubens did on Sunday? Or would he have gone for the kill? Anyone with half a memory would know exactly what he would have done.
Also the comparison with CART is not quite accurate - if an f1 driver makes a mistake he is widely condemned - I think the american perspective, that of enjoying the charger despite the fact that he will probably put it into a wall, is a throw-back to the ol days of F1.
F1 is no longer a "sport" as such - the intruiges are soap-opera related nonsense. These guys don't hold a candle to the generations that came before.
The "new" f1 fans, who came after Senna's much publicised death, and who are, mostly, Schumacher fans, do not understand nor care of F1's history - but they are an ephemeral bunch and will leave F1 for the next "big" thing - it is a pity that some of us will still be here when tobacco and these new "fans" will have left the sport, because Max and bernie will not - the die-hard fans of this sport, the folks that could still buy a ticket in the 70's and 80's on the morning of the GP, will have been screwed over just for BErnie's back-pocket. I have read many interviews in which Bernie mutters about the sport and what it has become - but the money he is making is well worth it for him.
Solutions? Firstly, cutting down the technology is a NASCAR thing which doesn't sit well with me - artificially bringing the cars closer has never been in the spirit of F1 - every year since the start of F1 there have always been teams dominating from the Silver Arrows to the Maseratis to the Cooper-Climax of the late 50s. In fact, it is the loosening of regulations that will give us surprises - Minardi, once they are let free from all interference, could well employ the next gordon murray who will "invent" a new mini-skirt ground-effects or something - the stabilisation of the rules favours only those at the sharp-end of the money equation.
One thing that should be done is limit the amount of testing a team can do. This would play into the hands of the poorer teams.
All said and done, though, Ferrari is no longer blood red and now sports a white front wing for fedex. Everything is for sale in F1 - and its heritage was probably the first thing to be auctioned off for a few quid.
Having said this, there really is nothing, but nothing, in the whole wide world, that can come close to watching these beasts up close. They always bring out, in me, thoughts of man's progress and ingenuity - they are like energy on a string, absolutely awe-inspiring. For Tv viewership, they are a boring procession - but in real life, these things are incredible feats of engineering. Now if only we could get some good drivers to drive them and GET RID OF THE F'ING GROOVES!!!!!!

[FulcrumF1]

Ahem, Magnum?
That was a very stupid statement you made about the *new* F1 Fans after Senna's death.

I'm one of those new fans and I have much love of and right to watch the sport as some of you old guys (no disrespect)
What people can't just discover F1? You have to have been following it for the past 20 years?
Well I'm 21 and I'm sorry I just haven't been around that long.

And I've no intention of just drifting away, give us some credit.

Oh and BTW I'm not particulary a Schumacher fan either.

[This message has been edited by FulcrumF1 (edited 03-14-2000).]

[magnum]

Not too sure about the stupidity of my comment - and while I respect ur view, I can only answer by saying that u've missed years and years of f1 - i am only 32 but I have taken the time to watch and read as much as I have been able to about the good ol days - and yes, while my views are patently nostalgic, i'm afraid u can't compare the mid 70s and early 80s (when i began watching) with today's soap-opera. Frankly, and sadly, u were born a decade too late - and this is not my fault.

[FulcrumF1]

Fair enough, but the thing I objected to is that you seem to think that *all* of us who just started watching relativly recently are lightweights which just isn't treu.

And I can see the myriad faults of todays F1 and agree with most of the comments in this thread. There seems to be an attempt to turn F1 into a soap opera i.e. Good Guy Mika - Bad Guy M Schumi etc. which is *really* annoying.

Peace ;)

[Dennis David]

You won't see me use lightweight in response to a particular reply but you guys are lightweights for the most part but so what.

A younger person has by spending less time on this planet experienced less of life but to balance it I would look pretty ridicules if I tried many of the sporting activities young people seem to accomplish with ease.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[magnum]

That was not my intention: let's smoke that pipe

[Ray Bell]

It's just too bad we were listening when we were told to "Grow up!"

One of the fascinating things I have going here is people telling me that the Historic Racing categories for cars before 1960 and before 1940 will die for lack of interest.
But I can point to people who are racing those cars who weren't born until the cars were 20, 30 or 40 years old!
The dismalists say that nobody who didn't see them race will ever be interested - but I disagree...
dja like the word I just invented?

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Ray Bell]

It's just too bad we were listening when we were told to "Grow up!"

One of the fascinating things I have going here is people telling me that the Historic Racing categories for cars before 1960 and before 1940 will die for lack of interest.
But I can point to people who are racing those cars who weren't born until the cars were 20, 30 or 40 years old!
The dismalists say that nobody who didn't see them race will ever be interested - but I disagree...
dja like the word I just invented?

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Dennis David]

Depends on what you put in your pipe. Myself I go to the annual Historical Car Races at Laguna Seca every year and love to go to either Coys, Goodwood or one of the Continental events when I'm in the area.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[buddyt]

As we will soon reach the 30 year mark(WOW!!!) since that M8D crashed and took Bruce McLaren's life. One thing is right with F1, the McLaren name itself is still there.

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"Speed cost money, how fast do you want to go?"

[Ray Bell]

But the Brabham, Surtees - even the Stewart - names are now gone....
At least Tyler Alexander still works with McLaren would be more my expression. He was with Bruce from the end of 1963, having joined him along with Timmy Mayer. Teddy went to Penske.

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Walrus]

I thought you ment just any drivers with that "Swedish meatballs". As a finnish it`s hard to undestand someone could think they were swedish...

[Barry Lake]

Walrus
All those Scandinavians look alike to some people.
As punishment for all those people calling Finnish drivers Swedish meatballs, you should offer to teach them to speak Finnish!
Swedish people have always told me, "Whatever you do, don't try to learn to speak Finnish! It's terrible!"
But then, for you it was probably easy...

[CVAndrw]

Well, I suppose I need to clarify my ethnic slurs in order to repair whatever reputation I retain: I am of course perfectly cognizant of the linguistic, historical and to some extent sociological and behavioral differences between the native inhabitants of Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark and Lapland, and I am likewise aware of the particular national origin of Hakkinen, Rosberg, Peterson, Bonnier, Nilsson and even a few such as Tom Kristiansen and Kenny Brack (as well as rallyists too numerous to list- I even know the meaning and origin of Erik Carlsson's nickname "Pa Taket").

Instead, to understand the pejorative "Swedish Meatball" as a descriptive term for certain less well intellectually endowed persons of generic Scandinavian descent one must spend time in Minnesota, USA- but I don't recommend it.

[Art]

Modern F1 vs the good old days?

In some ways I think modern F1 stinks due to the lack of engineering freedom. But as for the drivers there physical conditioning puts a few ahead of the old timers. And the race tracks have to be this way because we are more civil today. How many cars would finish one lap of the old 172 turn Nurburg Ring? Most forget that being #2 driver was only temporary as the death rate was very high in the old days.The gentelman driver doesn't move over any more he blocks you. And as for passing Bernies boys ended that when they penalized Schumacher for dangerous passing. Senna did this all the time. Big money has ruined the sport and it will not get any better.

Art

[Ray Bell]

Art - which two corners did you shortcut at the 'ring?
I would expect you would say 1993 was in the modern era, would you not? While it's certainly true that we don't see much overtaking, I remember well that first lap at Donington that year...
Maybe that's what great thing Bernie has done for us... Made overtaking so rare that we regard seeing it as a real treat!

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Jonathan]

CVAndrw -

You know about "meaning and origin of Erik Carlsson's nickname "Pa Taket" ?

Tell me more about Eric "On the Roof" Carlsson, please !