139 replies to this topic

[Boniver]

Bremgarten Swiss

Have nobody I map with more detail, of a road map,
for the Bremgarten circuit

Boniver

[Darren Galpin]

and




From http://www.silhouet....s/bremgart.html

[Boniver]

Tank You,
Fine,
But I know this map,
Have nodoby one other with details, a road map, …..

Hello Switzerland

Boniver

[MCH]

You can find more maps on this Grandprix Legends page:

http://home.datacomm.ch/srcb/

Good luck!

[Boniver]

MCH

Hartelijk dank voor de zeer goede tip
net wat we zochten
Hier zoeken wij reeds 20 jaar naar !!!!!!

Boniver

[Felix Muelas]

Boniver

I guess there must be something going on between MCH and you, but I will very much appreciate that, with some minor exceptions on "folklore" (like when I say bye in Spanish "un abrazo") we use the Private Message feature if we are going to use our own language, and Post if we intend to try to use English.
Otherwise, a translation would be welcome...


Felix

[Boniver]

MCH

I very good tip

Thank You

[MCH]

boniver> glad I could help you out with it . I only just found the page this week, great maps indeed. The aerial photo makes a great desktop background.

Felix> I think Boniver's Dutch to English translations was quite good actually. I would only like to add that he said that he had been looking for these kind of maps for twenty years.

[Barry Boor]

I know I'm basically in the the wrong section here, but seeing that we are talking about Berne, has anyone actually RACED on it? Using computer sim Grand Prix 2, I mean.
If you haven't, download it into your game, it's tremendous!

[Ray Bell]

I have to say that I was ecstatic when my stepson got GP2 and we discovered the Berne download was available.... someone with a passion for the place obviously did that one..
But Barry, you haven't been around here long enough to learn of Lobethal yet... go to the search facility and start learning.

[Keir]

Berne is also getting done for GPL, but will it work in "software mode"???

[Barry Boor]

Thanks, Ray, I hadn't heard of that one - but I don't think he has much that Darren Galpin hasn't got in the area of circuits.
Check the Brussels Grand Prix string - Mr Lobethal hasn't got that one, and neither had I until tonight although I've been searching for it for months.

[Ray Bell]

My story on Lobethal is at this location:
http://www.atlasf1.c...38#postid153038
That should keep you quiet for a while...

[Falcadore]

Was Lobethal ever developed for GP2? A large number of Ozzie circuits have been converted to GP2. Does Lobethal fit into the 'too big for GP2' category. Le Mans for example is too long.

yours
Mark Jones

[Ray Bell]

Sure does... it's just too long. I think the limit is about 5 miles.

[William Dale Jr]

7.79km to be exact. It could be done for GP2, but GPL would be more fun I was one of those people trying to put an Aussie track into GP2, Lakeside to be exact, but on my new computer I can't run it. Maybe GP3

[Ray Bell]

Someone has done Lakeside, but I recall that they made it all flat. Which, of course, Lakeside is not.

[Boniver]

http://drive.to/srcb

pictures of Bremgarter (GP of Switzerland)

start 1954

not one millemetre between the peoples and the cars
great

[Bernd]

FYI the circuit is Bremgarten not Bremgarter and it is located near Bern.

[Dennis David]

What's the relationship between this track and the Brernharten circuit at Berne?

[Rob29]

Think we have a spelling problem here...only one circuit in the Bern(e)area as far as I know. That the stupid Swiss can't decide wether to speak french,italian or German does not help!

[Patrick Italiano]

Bernd is right about the spelling, as everyone can check from Boniver's link.

But on the same track were organized different events : Swiss GP, Bern GP and Bremgarten GP.

Cimarosti's "Grand Prix Suisse" is a magnificient source of stunning pictures. I had the luck to find a NOS copy for DM 100 in Germany last summer in a discount bookstore.
Go hunting and don't miss it; original price was around $200 specialist bookstores like Chaters have some at around $100.

[Dennis David]

Yes I have the book.

[Ray Bell]

There's one there - is it 1948? - with a Maserati in front, looks just like the scenery in the Bremgarten sim track that's been done for GP2.

Lovely pics, well worth a look.

[Barry Boor]

I have just been looking at the Bern area on Multimap and am very sad to see that while some stretches of the old circuit appear to have survived, although there is a motorway blasting through it nowadays, there are some sections that appear to have been totally eradicated, I find that extremely sad.

http://uk2.multimap....&multimap.y=202

I know it's a long URL but it will show you the site of the circuit. For those who do not know, the start/finish area is just above the blue road in the very centre near the bottom, while the top left section of the track near the river is the white road that turns right under the Eymattstrasse and then runs alongside the river for a while.

As you can see, there are chunks that seem to have gone completely. Has anyone been there lately - and can you confirm this apparent sad situation?

[Hans Etzrodt]

I was in Bern last December and never bothered to visit the circuit, although I had a car. Instead I spent as much time as possible at the Swiss Landes Bibliothek and a Motoring Publishing House. Adriano Cimarosti explained to me about several changes to the old circuit and that one cannot complete an entire lap because of a new highway cutting through and some pedestrian area, I believe to remember.

[LittleChris]

Just got to say that the GPL rendition of Bremtgarten is absolutely brilliant. Not to mention Solitude, Le Mans, Crystal Palace etc. Clermont Ferrand is due at some point in the future.

[Racer.Demon]

Dutch car magazine Autovisie recently visited the site of the track in a silly feature combining the history of the Swiss GP and a test drive of the new Skoda Octavia RS (some combination). Anyway, there were lots of 'then' and 'now' pictures in it, so I'll see what I can do.

[Racer.Demon]

Some interesting remarks from the Autovisie report:

- This 23 and 24 June has seen a Grand Prix Bern Revival over the entire Bremgarten course. Does anyone know/read about that?
- The stretch of road from Glasbrunnen to Forsthaus has been eliminated completely. For the Revival it has been replaced by a longer link along the Halenstrasse, where it passes the new Forsthaus (not the one that gave the circuit corner its name) and then joins the Bremgarterstrasse, which in turn meets the original track at what used to be Forsthaus corner, which is also the end (or beginning, in circuit terms) of the Murtenstrasse.
- The Neuchatel Autobahn crosses the track at Betlehem at the end of the Murtenstrasse, goes along half the length of the Murtenstrasse to continue straight on where the Murtenstrasse turns away to the pit complex, and then crosses the now non-existent part of the track.
- The finish straight is still there but factories have taken the place of the former paddock and grandstands.
- When going under the Autobahn overpass onto the Eymattstrasse the territory becomes more like in the old days.
- There is a cross on a tree at the point where Achille Varzi was killed. The authors note that it can't possibly be the original tree as it seems to be no older than 30 years...
- The new Eymattstrasse is still not part of the original track at Eicholz, which ran straight across the Jordanweiher.
- The first original corner is Eymatt, which turns into the Wohlenstrasse - the one that used to catch out so many drivers. It is still a very dangerous corner and is now slowed down by some zig-zag road blocks.
- The course through the Bremgarterwald (the back side of the track) has been tightened into a pedestrian and bicycle path.
- At the point where the road now turns sharply to the right at Glasbrunnen, you can still the old track run straight on, albeit covered by weeds and low trees.
- Hotel Bellevue Palace, the five-star hotel that was the scene of many prizegivings, knows nothing of its heritage. The authors are rudely sent on by the management.
- The article even shows a few screenshots from the Bremgarten GPL rendition made by the Sim Racing Club Bern!

Here is a map of the Revival track. You can easily compare it with the map on Darren's site. And here is a picture of the aforementioned Varzi memorial.

[Barry Boor]

Thanks for that, Racer. By overlaying my multimap reference and your revival map it is possible to see what has happened.

Credit the powers that be in Berne for at least making an effort to do something. It seems not to happen at so many of these wonderful old circuits.

Are TNF members the only people left with any soul........?

[MichaelJP]

There was a thread recently on the GPL forum from Martin Zutter who had attended the Bremgarten Revival and taken some pictures.

Here's the Link:

http://home.datacomm..._2001/index.htm

Many thanks to Martin for these.

Forum link for those interested:

http://www.legendsce...c&f=29&t=003588

- Michael

[McRonalds]

We recently had a discussion about that interesting picture...



...which clearly shows the start of a race at the Bremgarten circuit in the late 40ties, but no one was able to say exactly when. I'm rather sure it's 1947 - but if it is 1947 - something must be wrong with the grida shown in Sheldons black books. Any suggestions about the background of this picture?
I'm sure car #50 is a (Milan?!)-Maserati 4CL - and I'm sure car #48 ist such a car too. So when there was a grid when two cars with such starting numbers stood on the left side of the grid behind each other. Both cars we see in front of the grid looks like Alfettas to me.

[alessandro silva]

It looks to me 1948 with Kautz #50 just a few minutes before his death in a Platé 4CL. 48 is de Graffenried's Platé 4CL that is being pushed back on the outside of the same row as Kautz. No driver in it as it can be seen.

[Buford]

OK you guys are amazing, with the stuff you know about racing history. So the guy in #50 got killed in that race?

[LittleChris]

Originally posted by Buford
OK you guys are amazing, with the stuff you know about racing history. So the guy in #50 got killed in that race?

Buford,
IIRC Christian Kautz ( Swiss driver ) was involved in the driver tests at Monza that led to Dick Seaman getting the Mercedes Benz drive. He died in much the same area ( Jordanrampe ?) at Bremtgarten as Achille Varzi

[David McKinney]

Those same tests resulted in Kautz getting a Mercedes drive. He later drove for Auto Union, one of only two drivers to race for both great German teams. The other was Fagioli

[Holger Merten]

David, please help me out, before I have to search all my stuff, who was the other driver, who was engaged by both teams in that great era of motorsport?

[jarama]

Originally posted by David McKinney
The other was Fagioli

Carles.

[alessandro silva]

On second thought, by looking again at the picture, it could be also 1947. In fact the rear suspension of the car #50 looks more as the one of a 6CM. #50 would be the Milan 6CM driven by Nino Grieco. If somebody could help by finding a picture - that exists but I cannot find, and was also probably shown on TNF - of Carlo Pesci at the Italian GP 1947, then we will know for sure.

If it is 1947, then there is the problem in the grid compared with Sheldon of course.

[McRonalds]

I still do not believe it's 1948. That year Kautz (#50) stood on the left side of the grid while his teammate deGraffenried (#48) stood on the right side.

This picture below shows the car (#48) Nello Pagani drove during the Swiss GP 1948, when the race had two heats and a final. It's not the same car we see in the picture above, but it has the same attachment behind the driver we see on car #50. We can see that top on the Pagani car too...



... and I have seen such a top on the car of Carlo Pesci during the Italian GP 1947. Both cars are Milan-Maseratis. So maybe Pagani and Nino Grieco switched the cars after practice at Bremgarten 1947?

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by McRonalds
I still do not believe it's 1948. That year Kautz (#50) stood on the left side of the grid while his teammate deGraffenried (#48) stood on the right side.

The other way round according to my copy of Sheldon.

[McRonalds]

Depends from which side you look at the grid.

[Vitesse2]

I don't think it's 1947 - that race was run in brilliant sunshine, according to The Motor. There are shadows under the #50 car, but ill-defined, not sharp. And several people on the grid are wearing coats, while the sky is cloudy.

[alessandro silva]

McR
Two heats and a final were in 47. I am sure you ment this.

Milan had experimented with a 6CM with 24 valves engine. That was Pesci's car at Milano and there was only one in existence, so #50 is Nino Grieco at Bremgarten 1947 where he is listed in a 6CM.
In your original picture you can also detect a shade of light on the tail of car 48 that could hide "the attachment" which is in any case smaller than the one in the 6CM.
Grids buffs will explain the problem to us certainly.

BTW I forgot where Pesci's photo comes from. Can you help?

[Doug Nye]

This is interesting. In Adriano Cimarosti's hefty tome on the Swiss GP this picture is captioned as the last taken of Christian Kautz, just before the race began in which he sustained his fatal accident. If 'Cima's wrong it's a fairly untypical occurrence because his pix were drawn from the extensive files of 'Automobil Revue' and they are normally filed and captioned with earnest Swiss precision...

DCN

[McRonalds]

@Alessandro;
My copy of the Pesci picture is from ‘A Century Of Competition And Human Challenges - Motor Racing' by Guiseppe Guzzardi and Enzo Rizzo.
And of course the Pagani picture is from 1947.

[Hans Etzrodt]

The same picture appears indeed on pg. 176 of René Häfeli’s book Verstummte Motoren. According to the author’s 1948 European Grand Prix story and grid, Kautz in #50 is positioned correctly in 11th place on the right side of row five. De Graffenried in #48, who according to grids in Häfeli’s book and Cimaosti’s tome Grand Prix Suisse should have been two cars to the left of #50, also on row five. Why is #48 shown in the picture on row four? Both drivers were in Maserati 4CLs.

For those who confuse left with right side of the grid, think about sitting in the car and look ahead in the direction you will be driving. The right side will be to your right and in the picture, our car #50 is on the right side of the fifth row.

[alessandro silva]

The following should be true:

a) The suspension lay-out of the car #50 is definitely the one of a 6CM (cfr. photo in Crumb-DlaRBx p.82) with semi-elliptic springs versus a quarter-elliptic in a 4CL (cfr. photo in ibidem p. 89).

b) It is a good guess that the car is the Milan 6CM, ch. 1565, a chassis used since 1939 with both 4CL and 6CM engines. It could then be listed as a 4CL as often done.

c) Three cars were -unusually- entered by Enrico Platé in Bern 1948, "his" two (4CLs) for Bira and De Graff. and a third one for Kautz. Kautz was an old customer of Platé (cfr. Reims 1947), wanted to enter the home GP and - as usual - Platé found a car for him.

Moreover:
d) no driver is sitting in car #48. That could mean that the car has yet to be pushed to the starting slot.

In conclusion I'll go back to my initial impression, 1948 until some other conflicting information, of course!!

[Don Capps]

As Hans states, that identical picture is on page 176 of the Rene Haefeli "Verstunnte Motoren, Die Geschicte des Schweizer Grand Prix" (1969). The cation is "Das lezte Bild von Christian Kautz, Maserati (50)," with another picture on page 178 of the no. 48 car: "Der Schweizer Emanuel 'Toulou' de Graffenried, Maserati."

[Hans Etzrodt]

I believe that master detective Alessandro had the right idea about the #48 car. It looks like it's being pushed back to the left of row five. One mechanic is walking with his hand on the right front wheel, two other mechanics in same striped uniform are at the left rear plus the man further to the left with a large writing pad in hand could hold the grid sheet, giving instructions where to push the car.

For those of you, who still think that the picture is from 1947, let’s look at that race. Weather was also sunny. In the "First Heat" race, the #50 car driven by Grieco was in sixth position at the right side of the third row. This scenario does not apply to our picture, where seven cars in three rows can be clearly made out in front of car #50 with the assumed (invisible) three cars on the first row surrounded by the small crowd. Therefore only the "Final" race of 1947 would apply, where car #50 was also placed in the fifth row, but this time in the middle position with car #48 two rows ahead, to the right of the third row, which also held three cars. This scenario is also different from what can be seen in our picture and therefore I think that the picture in question originates from 1948.