139 replies to this topic

[lil'chris]

Found this old map.

http://www.zumbo.ch/.../bremgarten.jpg


Can't see a date on it, but I reckon it might predate racing there because Bethlehem consists of a tight right turn, short straight and left turn rather than the quickish right hander I believe it was between 1934 & 1954.

Are changes to the circuit over its life shown in the Cimarosti book on the Swiss GP ?

[Vitesse2]

Chris: the bit which says "Aufnahme 1916" top left on the map would be a bit of a clue ....

Cimarosti only shows one map: I don't think there were actually any material changes over the years.

[lil'chris]

Vitesse, either you have remarkable eyesight or my PC's resolution is not very good

[fines]

Get a new monitor!

...coming from someone with 20/30 vision at best!

[LittleChris]

Just found this on You Tube. A lap of the Bremgarten as it is today, including riding through the middle of the forest where the road no longer exists on the Glasbrunnen section.

[Arjan de Roos]

Just found this on You Tube. A lap of the Bremgarten as it is today, including riding through the middle of the forest where the road no longer exists on the Glasbrunnen section.

It looks more like 'The blair witch project'
No, I am amazed so much of the track is no longer. A shame isn't it.

[LittleChris]

8 minutes of the 1953 Swiss Grand Prix.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Nice variety of shots from the start area down to Eymatt as the race progresses

[taylov]

Thought I would add a Swiss GP programme cover to add some colour - here's the post-war design as used for both 1947 and 1948.



Can anyone add the programmes from the pre-war races, please?

Tony

Edited by taylov, 10 March 2010 - 10:35.

[Rob Semmeling]

The Bremgarten circuit was first used by motorcycles in 1931. It initially measured 7.5 km but was modified to 7.28 km to accommodate cars as well in 1934.

Tony: http://www.progcover...motor/bern.html

Edited by Rob Semmeling, 10 March 2010 - 10:35.

[taylov]

The Bremgarten circuit was first used by motorcycles in 1931. It initially measured 7.5 km but was modified to 7.28 km to accommodate cars as well in 1934.

Tony: http://www.progcover...motor/bern.html

Thanks for the link. Nice to see that the "Alfetta design" almost lasted until the track was closed.

Here's the first (1947) of the post-war covers - in an almost orange colour. I did think this was a result of colour fading on my copy of the programme, but the inside adverts are in the same orange ink. Seems to have been a one-off in 1947.



Tony

[sramoa]

Who were entered the #6 car and #20 car in 1947 Swiss Grand Prix?I think the #6 was Delage...

[Vitesse2]

In 1947 #6 was Graud-Cabantous' Delahaye 135 and #20 was Falchetto's Bugatti T50 - which didn't arrive.

How about 1948? #6 was Chaboud's modified Delahaye 175 and #20 was Abecassis' Alta GP. Chaboud's car looked a bit like the Bugatti T59/50B3 which Wimille drove in early 1938 and the Alta is a bit like a 1939 ERA E-type on steroids.

[sramoa]

Thanks Richard your quickly reply!

[Barry Boor]

Checking back to see what the lap times were around the Bremgarten in 1951 I was very surprised to see that pole position in 1951 was over three seconds quicker than it was in 1954.

Should I be surprised?

[Barry Boor]

Ah! I have just spotted a difference in circuit length of over half a mile. That would explain it but now I'm wondering where the alteration was.

[byrkus]

Ah! I have just spotted a difference in circuit length of over half a mile.

Surley not?? According to just about every source possible, Bremgarten track always measured 7.280 kms.

And besides, record lap holder is/was/remains Bernd Rosemeyer from waaay back in 1937.;)

[Barry Boor]

Well, that's what I thought. It must be a typing error on the 1954 result that I was looking at.

So, back to my question; why were F.1 cars slower in 1954 than in 1951? Was it simply a matter of horsepower?

[D-Type]

The weather maybe. Lang says "Cold and damp weather was predominant throughout the two practice sessions and consequently there was little hope of fst times especially on the second day with near-continuous rain". He describes the race day weather as "Dull but drying"

[tom58long]

at least i found an interesting pic on that:

http://www.rennstrec...t/items/57.html

Edited by tom58long, 09 January 2012 - 22:32.

[Roger Clark]

The 1954 cars were slower than 1951 at Silverstone (1.5%), Berne (2.3%) Monza (5.1%) and Pedralbes (5.7%). the only exception was the Nurburgring where the 1954 cars were 1% faster. If Pomeroy's sixth root law is to be believed we would expect a car with 400bhp to be about 8% faster than one with 250bhp so the actual gaps may be a consequence of two years' chassis and tyre development.

[D-Type]

Are you looking at pole, fastest lap, or race average?
At Spa, Fangio's pole speed was 1% faster. The track length of Reims changed so comparison there is meaningless.

[Barry Boor]

The weather factor plus Roger's analysis would explain the difference, I guess.

So, the 7.8 kilometres lap length shown in the 1954 result is simply wrong.

[Roger Clark]

Are you looking at pole, fastest lap, or race average?
At Spa, Fangio's pole speed was 1% faster. The track length of Reims changed so comparison there is meaningless.

If that question is directed at me, I was considering pole position. That was the basis of Barry's question and is, I think, the best way of comparing the speed of cars in thar era.

Fangio's Spa time is outstanding. There were some changes at Spa during the 1951-54 period but I don't think they would make much difference. As D-type says, Rheims was changed significantly and can't be used in any comparison but I think the other circuits were largely unchanged. The Nurburgring may have still been recovering from the war in 1951.

I find it interesting that the 1954 cars seem to be slower, relative to those of 1951! as the season progressed. This may be a reflection of increased competition between Alfa and Ferrari in 1951 or it may be that the 1954 W196 wasn't very good. Perhaps Fangio would have had a much easier time if he had stayed with Maserati.

[LittleChris]

The weather factor plus Roger's analysis would explain the difference, I guess.

So, the 7.8 kilometres lap length shown in the 1954 result is simply wrong.

Barry, as a matter of interest, what was the source of the data ?

[Barry Boor]

It was from Darren's site, Chris.

So, another Berneing question.... (sorry)

Although it rained during the 1951 race there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that it was stopped early, so my question is, why was it such a short race?

Fangio took only a few minutes over 2 hours and this, remember, was in the rain. The remaining Championship races that season were all at least two and three quarter hours and a couple were over three.

[Tim Murray]

It seems to have been a fairly short race from 1939 on:

1939: 2 heats and a 30 lap final
1947: ditto
1948: 40 laps
1949: 40 laps
1950: 42 laps
1951: 42 laps

then it was extended:

1952: 62 laps
1953: 65 laps
1954: 66 laps

[D-Type]

It seems to have been a fairly short race from 1939 on:

1939: 2 heats and a 30 lap final
1947: ditto
1948: 40 laps
1949: 40 laps
1950: 42 laps
1951: 42 laps

then it was extended:

1952: 62 laps
1953: 65 laps
1954: 66 laps

Didn't they run the Swiss motorcycle GP the same weekend with one road closure for both events? I think I read this somewhere. If so, there would have been a limited time available for the car GP.

[Vitesse2]

Didn't they run the Swiss motorcycle GP the same weekend with one road closure for both events? I think I read this somewhere. If so, there would have been a limited time available for the car GP.

Yes, that's true for 1947-51. Of Tim's list above, there was no bike race in 1939 (the Swiss Motorcycle GPs were scheduled for Zurich in October) or 1946 (no Swiss GP, but there was a race in the GP des Nations meeting at Geneva).

[Rob Semmeling]

Perhaps of interest: pages 143-144 of my Rennen! Races! Vitesse! pdf-file summarize the history of auto and motorcycle racing in Switzerland. All circuits that hosted auto racing in this country are mentioned. The file is available for download from my website:

http://www.wegcircuits.nl/rrv.html

[ozpata]

http://oscarplada.blogspot.com/

[LittleChris]

If anyone's got sufficient space on their shelves and they're strong enough there's a copy of Cimarosti's Grand Prix Suisse for a bargain £95. This is the cheapest I've seen it for a long time 

 

I was very tempted but don't have room for any more books sadly

 

Grand Prix Suisse by Cimarosti, Adriano | Holybourne Rare Books ABA ILAB (abebooks.co.uk)

[Michael Ferner]

Thanks  , ordered! 

 

Though, strangely, they wouldn't ship to Germany    but thankfully to nearby Luxembourg! 

 

 

By the by, LittleChris, any relation to lil'chris? 

[LittleChris]

 

 

By the by, LittleChris, any relation to lil'chris? 

 

One and the same !!  Can't remember why I had to change for a while then back again but nothing devious 

[Vitesse2]

Thanks  , ordered! 

 

Though, strangely, they wouldn't ship to Germany    but thankfully to nearby Luxembourg! 

Probably had problems with German customs delays and/or VerpackG: https://forums.autos...post&p=10227066

[Michael Ferner]

Got the book this weekend, and what can I say - there's a horrible stench about it, as if it had been stored in an oily cellar or garage for years! No wonder it was the cheapest you've seen in a long time, Chris!   

 

Does anyone have experience with something like that? I'm thinking of 'airing' it for prolonged periods, but outside it's still too cold to do that without risking damage to the paper. Also, I'm unsure whether that's going to help without opening it and turning pages over, which is not really on the cards (over 600 pages!!). 

[FastReader]

Got the book this weekend, and what can I say - there's a horrible stench about it, as if it had been stored in an oily cellar or garage for years! No wonder it was the cheapest you've seen in a long time, Chris!

Does anyone have experience with something like that? I'm thinking of 'airing' it for prolonged periods, but outside it's still too cold to do that without risking damage to the paper. Also, I'm unsure whether that's going to help without opening it and turning pages over, which is not really on the cards (over 600 pages!!).

Just Google "how to get rid of smells from books" for various inexpensive ways to do this. That's a great book and worth the trouble of getting rid of the smell.

Edited by FastReader, 20 February 2024 - 17:02.

[FastReader]

For instance, the first answer that comes up is:

"Place dry books in an airtight container, along with an open box of baking soda. Keep the books in the container until the musty smell disappears. This may take up to a week for hard-back books."

It'll probably need to be quite a big box to fit that book though.

[Michael Ferner]

Many thanks for the tips, I shall try that!

 

 

N.B. "Just google how..." - yes, great idea! How did I not think of it, and will I ever arrive in the 21st century...   

[Barttore]

Does the book Grand Prix Suisse by Cimarosti contain any info about / pictures of Dutchman Herkuleijns racing at Bremgarten? He was there at 1934, 35, 36, 37 and 38.

I am still slowy working on his biography and would appreciate any input. Thank you very much!

[Vitesse2]

Does the book Grand Prix Suisse by Cimarosti contain any info about / pictures of Dutchman Herkuleijns racing at Bremgarten? He was there at 1934, 35, 36, 37 and 38.

I am still slowy working on his biography and would appreciate any input. Thank you very much!

There are no obvious pictures, although he might be visible in grid photos - but of course those tend to concentrate on the front rows. And there isn't one of the 1934 Prix de Berne! The text isn't indexed, so it would take a while to work through - although the reports of the Prix de Berne races are generally very brief.

 

One source you might not have explored would be the various Swiss daily papers, some of which did provide quite detailed reports - there are quite a lot available online.

 

https://doc.rero.ch/...?cc=PRESS&ln=en

 

https://www.scriptorium.ch/page/home

 

https://www.letempsarchives.ch/

 

https://www.e-newspaperarchives.ch/

 

Italian language only: https://www2.sbt.ti....df/advanced.php