48 replies to this topic

[brabhamBT19]

I remember when I was driving go-karts some people used to dip tyres into gasoline to make them softer, thus grippier. It is true or just a myth. Also if its true, would it be legal to do this in major motorracing events

[scolbourne]

I remember when I was driving go-karts some people used to dip tyres into gasoline to make them softer, thus grippier. It is true or just a myth. Also if its true, would it be legal to do this in major motorracing events

I have noticed that Ferrari do this fairly often in their pitstops , sometimes even setting fire to them to really warm them up.

[Tony Matthews]

I have noticed that Ferrari do this fairly often in their pitstops , sometimes even setting fire to them to really warm them up.

I like it, I like it!

[OfficeLinebacker]

I remember when I was driving go-karts some people used to dip tyres into gasoline to make them softer, thus grippier. It is true or just a myth. Also if its true, would it be legal to do this in major motorracing events

Nowadays there are additives designed specifically to make tyres stickier, as well as stuff you can slop onto the racing surface to do the same.

It's absolutely illegal in every major motor racing series.

The only place you see it is at weekend test & tune type meets at local drag strips.

[gruntguru]

Nowadays there are additives designed specifically to make tyres stickier, as well as stuff you can slop onto the racing surface to do the same.

It's absolutely illegal in every major motor racing series.

The only place you see it is at weekend test & tune type meets at local drag strips.

Don't the organisers slop it on the track at drag racing events?

[Tony Matthews]

Don't the organisers slop it on the track at drag racing events?

Isn't that bleach, to give spectacular burn-outs? (Burn-outs! See, I know some of the terminology!) I assumed it helped with grip too, but perhaps not. I await some expert input...

[McGuire]

On drag strips they spray a specially formulated traction compound on the track surface... glue, more or less. Sticky. On the starting line you can walk right out of your loafers. A good pair of lace-up shoes are required.

[Tony Matthews]

On drag strips they spray a specially formulated traction compound on the track surface... glue, more or less. Sticky. On the starting line you can walk right out of your loafers. A good pair of lace-up shoes are required.

Sounds like the carpet in what was my local pub.

[cheapracer]

Sounds like the carpet in what was my local pub.

If you search the net a bit (i'm not) you can find a product that you paint on the inside of the tyre and leave it overnight - I seem to remember there was some issues with it and NASCAR.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Don't the organisers slop it on the track at drag racing events?

I guess I was referring back to the actual tyres.

Between heats at drag tracks, it's true, they spray down the launching area and sometimes up along the first part of the racing surface.

[Tony Matthews]

There is, I am sure, a product that softens the tyre tread and gives more grip, I haven't stuck my neck out on this one as I am not sure when it was advertised or what it was called. I also remember, faintly, that it was banned in competition. There was also a product, possibly a related formula, that was sold for use in the winter, something like ' Chain in a Can', supposed to give more traction in the snow.

[ivanalesi]

There are many such products, you can find them on most race gear shops/websites. But I don't think they have gasoline in them, you can use such for track days or testing, usually when you have an old set of tyres which has become much harder with the time. They are usually called tyre softeners.

[Tony Matthews]

There are many such products, you can find them on most race gear shops/websites. But I don't think they have gasoline in them, you can use such for track days or testing, usually when you have an old set of tyres which has become much harder with the time. They are usually called tyre softeners.

Thanks ivanalesi, I keep forgetting I can look things up! I ran over a nail the other day, that was a tyre-softener too...

[OfficeLinebacker]

Thanks ivanalesi, I keep forgetting I can look things up! I ran over a nail the other day, that was a tyre-softener too...

You know I carry a set of tire plugs with tools and one of those compressors you can plug into the cig lighter socket. Of course I've never run over a nail since I started doing this.

[Tony Matthews]

You know I carry a set of tire plugs with tools and one of those compressors you can plug into the cig lighter socket. Of course I've never run over a nail since I started doing this.

Take it all out, stack it in the garage, five miles out of town, pffffffft.

[Greg Locock]

Take it all out, stack it in the garage, five miles out of town, pffffffft.

I worked on one of the abortive Lotus supercar projects, and the program manager had decided that we didn't need a spare, cos the Countach didn't have one. So he took the Lambo home for an overnight 'evaluation', and of course inevitably got a puncture. He also managed to ram something in the car park while reversing it.

The Countach was a bloody stupid car (looked fun) but he loved it, luckily the Lotus Countach clone didn't get very far. Taught me a fair bit though, that's the first clean sheet design I ever got involved with from the word go.

[cheapracer]

luckily the Lotus Countach clone didn't get very far. Taught me a fair bit though, that's the first clean sheet design I ever got involved with from the word go.

Greg do you know how interesting those sorts of stories are, please elaborate if you could.....

When I was at Neil Neilson Mazda in Ferntree Gully oh so many years ago, they sold a new series 1 RX7 that had very wide aftermarket mags and tyres fitted (the only way to sell a green RX7).

The older Italian woman (who else would buy a green RX7 with gold wheels?) came back a few weeks later complaining that the spare wasn't the same as the other 4 wheels and she stood her ground (as older Italian woman do) until they agreed to replace the spare with the same mag - well it wouldn't fit into the spare wheel well would it

I left that week so I don't actually know how it all turned out.

[ivanalesi]

Thanks ivanalesi, I keep forgetting I can look things up! I ran over a nail the other day, that was a tyre-softener too...

lol, these are not performance enhancing
Btw, I don't know why such chemicals are forbidden. I've heard it's down to their impact on the tarmac, does anyone know something more?
You can use it for training qualy laps.

[phantom II]

Was that the Etna? GM bought Lotus at that time and the LT5 engine followed soon afterwords. Tony Rudd revised the Lotus design for the Corvette.

I worked on one of the abortive Lotus supercar projects, and the program manager had decided that we didn't need a spare, cos the Countach didn't have one. So he took the Lambo home for an overnight 'evaluation', and of course inevitably got a puncture. He also managed to ram something in the car park while reversing it.

The Countach was a bloody stupid car (looked fun) but he loved it, luckily the Lotus Countach clone didn't get very far. Taught me a fair bit though, that's the first clean sheet design I ever got involved with from the word go.

[OfficeLinebacker]

lol, these are not performance enhancing
Btw, I don't know why such chemicals are forbidden. I've heard it's down to their impact on the tarmac, does anyone know something more?
You can use it for training qualy laps.

I think because it's too hard to regulate. The general rule is simply NO adulteration of the tyres in any way AT ALL. Think what teams might do and how risky it might be. Tyres are a big safety issue.

[Greg Locock]

Was that the Etna? GM bought Lotus at that time and the LT5 engine followed soon afterwords. Tony Rudd revised the Lotus design for the Corvette.

I don't think there was much similarity between Etna's engine and the LT5, but I could be wrong.

The supercar project was called M300, I don't even remember who was styling it, probably Julian by that point. It was after we showed the Etna showcar, and LT5 was more or less done and dusted, so the engine boys were looking for something to do, so I'm guessing 87 or so. The thinking behind the powertrain isolation problems it raised (and that were confirmed in the Chevrolet Indy technology demonstrator, where we ended up with 6 inches of insulation on the firewall) sort of led to the SID car, which was supposed to allow us to mess about with the fundamental issue of isolating a lightweight body from the powertrain and suspension, without compromising the handling. To that end I designed a set of bushes that covered the entire range of stiffenesses we needed that all fit in the same housings, and then all the different subframes and so on could be plugged to gether with any conceivable isolation strategy. Sadly that car was never used for that purpose. You might find it odd that Lotus worried about noise and vibration so much, we probably made more money from that than from the ride and handling side, and weren't afraid of doing some reasonably innovative research. As a result the Lotus branded cars from that era had to be reasonably refined as well as quick, since they were our advertisements.

Edited by Greg Locock, 02 July 2009 - 01:10.

[phantom II]

This drawing is in Dave McLellan's, "Corvette From the Inside". He took over Corvette from Duntov as chief engineer. A must read.




The first prototype LT5s were made in may '87 in England and the first production engines were built in December 87 at Mercury Marine in Stillwater Oklahoma after only a two year design cycle from conception to production. They started designing the LT5 in May 86 and the first dyno tests were in May '87 in England. Normally a GM design cycle was 5 years. There was a seamless flow between the prototypes and the production engines across the pond and the performance on the same dyno between the two engines was identical.
Rudd and his 70 man team were in the process of designing the Etna engine when the project was canceled. They had gone thru one iteration of a four cam, 4valve 4 liter V8 engine for the proposed new sports car so the team was ready for the Corvette project. They almost declined the project because they were about to design a 3 liter F1 V8 engine for a F1 client that canceled at the last minute. The current F1 engine was a 1.5 liter turbo engine.
Lotus solved the oil drain back problem* on the LT5 and other last minute problems by November 88 when the engine went into production level assy. and the usual 100 hour max throttle dyno test for GM engines took place again in England. Unheard of in Europe and the Lotus engineers before that time. I don't think Ferrari does this to this day. 15 new ZR1s were introduced in the French alps near Montpellier and Geneva at the same time in March 89.
What screwed up the design was the insistence by Roy Midgley that the engine retained the same 4.4" bore centers that the L89 cast iron engine had. The bores were smaller than Tony wanted and the output was 375 hp instead of the desired 400. Also the exhaust valves were at the wrong angle because the engine had to fit into a very narrow bay. For 93, they messed with the cams and the intake to get their required 405 hp. They also changed the gears in the ZF 6 speed half way thru 93 production, because customers complained about the noise. (What is that noise called? Pronounced when the engine labors.) I love those kinds of sounds. Some thought that the gearbox was about to fail. It sounded like those old Muncie M21s to me. Lovely.
I got the best and noisiest version of the ZR1 in September 92. '93 model. I took it to Europe in March 93 and achieved 180mph quite often on the Autobahns. 6 laps at the Ring also. The car lives in Munich now and is as immaculate as the day I bought it.

I have seen 2 89 ZR1s, officially, there were no 89 ZR1s. One at a Technical College where most of the 60 prototypes ended up and the other in a museum in the Isle of Man. I told the curator that his car doesn't actually exist. I don't know how many of the cars sent to Europe returned.
*The first time they ran the engine to 7000 rpm in May 87 on the dyno, oil conjugated in the cylinder heads and didn't drain back into the sump, thus starving the bottom end with oil due to cavitation at the pump pick up. The piston speed was higher than they wanted because of the longer stroke and the hurricane it caused aerated the oil. A specially designed windage tray was installed and together with drain back passages, the problem was resolved.

[Greg Locock]

The 100 hour WOT redline test is a British 'standard' - we always used it at BL, and Ford used it. The A series turbo engine was the first engine I knew of that passed first time, the designers were gobsmacked.

It's the first step in the development cycle - if you can't do that you don't have an engine.

The LT5 couldn't run at high speed originally because the crankshaft bending mode would shatter the oil pump, which is a 4mm wide rotor on the crank nose. I helped design and tune the crank bending damper that suppressed that resonance. There were a lot of late nights around during that bit of the program for obvious reasons.

[Thunder Chat]

As to the tyres, when i was in karts we found that spraying brake cleaner on the tyres was good for softening them, i emphasise this was only for winter testing here in britain, wasn't into cheating at msa events. It did work amazingly well as you could go out of the pits and the tyres instantly gripped, only did it a couple of times though, for race setup it was pointless beacuse you couldn't use it at a meeting anyway

But yes it does work, not sure petrol would be strong enough, it was a Valvoline spray brake cleaner we used, and it was an amazing effect.

[phantom II]

You have had an interesting career. Thanks for sharing your experiences over all these years. I was quoting the book and McLellan didn't mention that little detail. Did you get to meet him? He left GM under a cloud and I think it had something to do with the LT5. Another guy who got stiffed by GM was Dick Guldstrand who after spending $mil on his GS that used the ZR1 chassis, GM stopped the production of the engine early in 93. Only a few were sold. I can't find a picture of it.
It is virtually impossible to get parts for it today and also the ZF gearbox. The car was as steady as a rock at 180mph. The LT5 sounded beautiful. It got 30mpg on US highways and 15 on German highways, which is pretty damned good. I'm lucky if I get 14mpg any time in my new ZR-1 which I have just sold. I just won't support Obama Motors. I'm a Ford guy now.

[canon1753]

Back at the beginning of Drag racing, they used to do burnouts with fire to warm up the tires. Of course, that being really dangerous they went to the bleach box which allowed the tires to spin and do a burnout much safer.

edited for accuracy. Thanks Gruntguru!

Edited by canon1753, 03 July 2009 - 23:38.

[gruntguru]

Back at the beginning of Drag racing, they used to do burnouts with fire to warm up the tires. Of course, that being really dangerous they went to the bleach box which allowed the tires to spin and do a burnout much safer. I don't doubt that the NHRA et al. use a very gluey substance to help the tires heat up during the burn out.

The gluey substance referred to by McGuire is not there to heat the tyres; it is there to increase the coefficient of friction between tyres and track.

[Greg Locock]

P2

No I was a spotty faced geek in a lab, I don't think I ever spoke to Rudd, never mind the GM guys.

I did have one brief disastrous meeting with Peter Wright- rule of thumb, if you are in a meeting with your boss, his boss, and the big boss, don't wing it on the technical stuff. These days I'd get away with it, then not so much.

[OfficeLinebacker]

The gluey substance referred to by McGuire is not there to heat the tyres; it is there to increase the coefficient of friction between tyres and track.

Right, the area for burnouts is just water, and, I suppose, at times bleach, which is extra slippery.

Of course the Top Fuel guys do a burnout several hundred feet down the strip to lay down extra rubber in the lanes and cos they have plenty of power to break traction even at the stickiest conditions.

[ivanalesi]

I've also heard this about spraying the tyres with some of the liquids, though I think it was for the chain oil:) The softeners are better, and it is actually a bit long process.
Here is it: http://www.griptyres...application.asp
I've also seen somewhere "fast" tyre softener, you don't need to leave the tyre to cure for days... it's almost instant.
But the bottom line is, tyre softeners are generally sold for old tyres.

[Ian G]

Methyl Salicylate was used back in the 70's by some hillclimb cars in Australia as the regulations back then were pretty slack, never seen or heard of anything being used in circuit racing out here other than buffing of tread which is still in use today.


http://www.oz-clubbi....php/t6752.html 2nd last post MS & Acetone but there were several mixtures at the time,main reason was too soften old racing rubber as new stuff was too expensive.

Edited by Basil, 13 July 2009 - 08:47.

[desmo]

I can't imagine it'd be realistic to enforce a rule against treating tires in any normal racing series where the car owners bring their own tires to the track, so if there's really any advantage in so doing I'd assume it's universally done regardless what the rules say.

[Thunder Chat]

You can enforce it, but it relies on people who suspect others putting their money in their pocket to protest which at club level racing people arn't keen on doing unless they are very confident of the outcome.

Even then though its difficult to prove in a court, i remember a case where the protested driver who had long been suspected of tyre cheating (he was later caught doing something else which attracted a record fine, and a ban, i'm sure some of you know who i'm talking about) went through to the courts, and his lawyer was somehow able to argue that it could not be proven that the bags the msa had sealed the tyres in had not effected the chemical properties of the tyre, and therefore the laboritory tests that were done on the rubber which showed a chemical change couldn't be relied upon, so he was found innocent

[Nathan]

I'm a Ford guy now.

Saves you having to spend money on a car!

[Stefan_VTi]

I can't imagine it'd be realistic to enforce a rule against treating tires in any normal racing series where the car owners bring their own tires to the track, so if there's really any advantage in so doing I'd assume it's universally done regardless what the rules say.

In kart racing over here they used to test tires using a shore meter, they 'd take a couple of reference sets and if you were way softer you'd get disqualified. From what I remember it worked pretty well against tire softeners. Some people still used them tough, especially for tires that had been heat cycled a couple of times, to get them back to their minimum hardness.

[cheapracer]

Even then though its difficult to prove in a court, i remember a case where the protested driver who had long been suspected of tyre cheating (he was later caught doing something else which attracted a record fine, and a ban, i'm sure some of you know who i'm talking about)

No I don't, if it's been to court and therefore public information, why can't you simply name him?

[wrighty]

I can't imagine it'd be realistic to enforce a rule against treating tires in any normal racing series where the car owners bring their own tires to the track, so if there's really any advantage in so doing I'd assume it's universally done regardless what the rules say.

Brisca F2 stock cars (although not exactly a worldwide series) does support a rigid anti-softener law in Britain where all competitors on the current control tyre (the Yokohama A021) can be checked at any time with a durometer to establish the softness of the tyre tread and case. If the tyre fails the duro test the competitor is handed an automatic ban pending appeal and/or further laboratory analysis of the suspect tyre/s. (Granted, the rulebook has more holes in it than a rusty colander but they do endeavour to administer this rule to its best effect).....

.....if that's what you mean

[Thunder Chat]

No I don't, if it's been to court and therefore public information, why can't you simply name him?

i know you dont, thats why i said some of you but no you're right, its out there anyway if you fancy it google Adam Christodoulou, but this has the jist of what he eventually got done for : http://www.ten-tenth...read.php?t=7914

He's gone to america now as they've struggled to progress him in europe due to his reputation (deservedly so in my view)

*taken from link in case you can't view it

MSA National Court: 31 January 2006

Having listened to evidence at its hearing on Tuesday 31 January, the Motor Sports Association`s National Court has taken the following action:

The Court has suspended the competition licence of Junior Rotax kart racing driver Adam Christodoulou until September 2006. This means Adam Christodoulou will not be permitted to compete in the UK or overseas during this period.

However, the Court has decided not to take any action against three other drivers: Lewis Reeves, Jack Harvey and Jordan Chamberlain.

Separately, the Court has ordered Adam Christodoulou`s father, Peter Christodoulou, to pay £13,000 in costs.

The above decisions were taken on the third and final day of a hearing that opened in December 2005.

In December, the court found that the four drivers named had competed in a meeting at Rowrah on 5 June 2005 using illegally-modified engines. These had been modified by Peter Christodoulou whose actions resulted in a fine of £30,000. The latest order to pay £13,000 in costs is in addition to this fine.

At Tuesday`s hearing, the Court did not accept Adam Christodoulou`s claim that he did not know that his engine at Rowrah had been illegally modified.

However, the Court did accept that the three other drivers – Lewis Reeves, Jack Harvey and Jordan Chamberlain – did not know that the engines they were using were illegal. In effect, said the Court, these drivers had "been fooled."

Previously, the Court had heard unchallenged evidence from Michael Garton, one of the MSA`s most experienced technical commissioners, who said the modifications made to the engines by Mr Christodoulou had been "very deliberate, very sophisticated and very expensive."

Mr Garton also said that this was "the most serious case of cheating" he had ever witnessed during his many years of investigating ineligibility in karting.

In a statement, the Court said: "We accept that Adam (Christodoulou) has considerable ability and we do not wish to prevent him from participating in the sport for more than one season. We also accept that this matter has been hanging over his head for a considerable amount of time, not due wholly to his own fault. We are accordingly suspending his licence until 30 September 2006; and we make an order pursuant to rule 161 of the FIA rules to give that suspension international application."

The Court also heard that the four drivers, since the meeting at Rowrah, had been "victimised" by a number of clubs.

In its statement, the Court added: "We have been made aware of the fact that some clubs have already taken matters into their own hands so as, in effect, to mete out what might be regarded as kangaroo justice. We wholly understand why people feel very strongly about this kind of cheating. Indeed, we agree with them.

"We, however, have heard and tested the actual evidence to the best of our abilities and it is we who have the job of deciding where the truth lies. We have done so and we very much hope that our decision and rulings draw a firm line under this matter. We would be very concerned indeed if further reports of any kind of kangaroo justice were to come to our attention again."

Edited by Thunder Chat, 13 July 2009 - 14:19.

[Canuck]

43,000GBP fine in cart racing...sheeeit.

I've always been a bit curious. Would a fine like that be legally enforceable? Cheating is against the spirit and letter, but not necessarily against the law (spouses do it all the time ). FIA or the relevant sanctioning body can ban you from racing with them, but can they enforce the collection of a fine?

[cheapracer]

Awww come'on Thunder, this is the tech forum - what were the "very deliberate, very sophisticated and very expensive." mods done?

[ceebdub]

i know you dont, thats why i said some of you but no you're right, its out there anyway if you fancy it google Adam Christodoulou, but this has the jist of what he eventually got done for : http://www.ten-tenth...read.php?t=7914

He's gone to america now as they've struggled to progress him in europe due to his reputation (deservedly so in my view)

*taken from link in case you can't view it

MSA National Court: 31 January 2006

Having listened to evidence at its hearing on Tuesday 31 January, the Motor Sports Association`s National Court has taken the following action:

The Court has suspended the competition licence of Junior Rotax kart racing driver Adam Christodoulou until September 2006. This means Adam Christodoulou will not be permitted to compete in the UK or overseas during this period.

However, the Court has decided not to take any action against three other drivers: Lewis Reeves, Jack Harvey and Jordan Chamberlain.

Separately, the Court has ordered Adam Christodoulou`s father, Peter Christodoulou, to pay £13,000 in costs.

The above decisions were taken on the third and final day of a hearing that opened in December 2005.

In December, the court found that the four drivers named had competed in a meeting at Rowrah on 5 June 2005 using illegally-modified engines. These had been modified by Peter Christodoulou whose actions resulted in a fine of £30,000. The latest order to pay £13,000 in costs is in addition to this fine.

At Tuesday`s hearing, the Court did not accept Adam Christodoulou`s claim that he did not know that his engine at Rowrah had been illegally modified.

However, the Court did accept that the three other drivers – Lewis Reeves, Jack Harvey and Jordan Chamberlain – did not know that the engines they were using were illegal. In effect, said the Court, these drivers had "been fooled."

Previously, the Court had heard unchallenged evidence from Michael Garton, one of the MSA`s most experienced technical commissioners, who said the modifications made to the engines by Mr Christodoulou had been "very deliberate, very sophisticated and very expensive."

Mr Garton also said that this was "the most serious case of cheating" he had ever witnessed during his many years of investigating ineligibility in karting.

In a statement, the Court said: "We accept that Adam (Christodoulou) has considerable ability and we do not wish to prevent him from participating in the sport for more than one season. We also accept that this matter has been hanging over his head for a considerable amount of time, not due wholly to his own fault. We are accordingly suspending his licence until 30 September 2006; and we make an order pursuant to rule 161 of the FIA rules to give that suspension international application."

The Court also heard that the four drivers, since the meeting at Rowrah, had been "victimised" by a number of clubs.

In its statement, the Court added: "We have been made aware of the fact that some clubs have already taken matters into their own hands so as, in effect, to mete out what might be regarded as kangaroo justice. We wholly understand why people feel very strongly about this kind of cheating. Indeed, we agree with them.

"We, however, have heard and tested the actual evidence to the best of our abilities and it is we who have the job of deciding where the truth lies. We have done so and we very much hope that our decision and rulings draw a firm line under this matter. We would be very concerned indeed if further reports of any kind of kangaroo justice were to come to our attention again."

Thats a shame when we were racing in cadets at Shenington the Christos were really helpful to us when were were novices.

[Thunder Chat]

yeah the lad isn't without ability so its a real shame, and quite shocking to people who thought they knew them. Its amazing though the way people do this, i've since discovered other juniors back in the day were cheating all the time but got away with it, i'd always assumed they ran legal but were just very good!

the modification? it was (i believe) to do with the crankpin, and effectivly lengthened the stroke. You have to bare in mind the rotax class he was in was a sealed engine class, the idea being that the engines arn't taken apart and 'built' in the same way other classes are, and the seals are only supposed opened/closed by particular agents. The christos had the parts illegally made (at the BAR factory so the story goes!) put them in and did the seals themselves.

The karts are obviously all very close as they are a spec engine like this, it was most noticable that something was up becuase the meeting before Rowrah he was 4ths quicker than all the others in the twisty sector (times at this level usually are split by 100ths,and 1000nds of a second), using the extra performance out of slow corners to race people, but was then feathering the throttle at the end of the straights to lose time and make everything seem ok it was his sectors that got people thinking and then he was finally protested on it.

As to enforcing the fine, i'm fairly sure it has been paid though i can see your point. I would imagine your legal responsibility is covered somehow amongst the things you sign when you agree to enter a race, you'd need someone from the MSA to explain that though

[OfficeLinebacker]

43,000GBP fine in cart racing...sheeeit.

I've always been a bit curious. Would a fine like that be legally enforceable? Cheating is against the spirit and letter, but not necessarily against the law (spouses do it all the time ). FIA or the relevant sanctioning body can ban you from racing with them, but can they enforce the collection of a fine?

I think that further participation is contingent on the payment of the fine. So they could always quit Kart Racing if they can't afford the fine.

[Canuck]

That's sort of what I meant - if you don't pay the fine, you're going to forefeit any further participation I would assume, but if you tell them to stuff their $100,000 fine can they enforce collection? I wondered that in the McLaren/Ferrari deal too - the outrageous fine amounts (relative to racing budgets perhaps not that outrageous). How much of a bluff is something like that with a team like McLaren? Would they let McLaren walk or quietly keep up the appearance of having fined and collected from them while letting them continue with no intention of paying? Especially now, in light of the recent FOTA action - would they pursue an economic judgement against someone where they'd only be subject to the fine if they wanted to continue to race under that umbrella?

Which brings up another question I've pondered from time to time. What gives the FIA their stranglehold on worldwide "automotive" competition?

[Greg Locock]

Which brings up another question I've pondered from time to time. What gives the FIA their stranglehold on worldwide "automotive" competition?

Politics and event insurance. Mostly the latter.

[Thunder Chat]

I'm not sure they have a worldwide stranglehold do they? do the american series have anything to do with the FIA?

As to the paying of fines, particularly with big championships you sign so many forms when you enter these, and some of that must cover your responsibility to act within the rules of the championship and the legal ramifications should you break that agreement.

The fines in my post were tailord to the case and to the individuals because they had the means to pay them, similar to the mclaren case, so it was never going to be a case of christo not being able to pay, his dad could well have charged the other lads fathers/entrants £10K each to use those engines anyway, the sort of money that flows around in there at that level is ludicrous

[cheapracer]

Which brings up another question I've pondered from time to time. What gives the FIA their stranglehold on worldwide "automotive" competition?

The apathetic people who just pay them for a license and don't care whats on the other side of the fence mostly.

As I seem to have posted a few times recently, a couple of Australian's, Peter Brock and Bob Jane for different reasons in the past, showed the FIA that they weren't the Guardians of motor sport, Australian motor sport anyway.

In a nutshell, Brock said he was a Professional Driver and could earn money where and when he wanted to, in and outside of FIA events, the FIA said "oh no you can't, we will blacklist you", the Courts said "oh yes he can and you won't".

Jane said he could run race car events where and when he wanted to (he is a multiple Oz track owner), the FIA said "oh no you can't, we will blacklist you", the Courts said "oh yes he can and no you won't".

CAMS (Confederation of Australian Motors Sports) is the Oz branch of the FIA here.

[Canuck]

Interesting. I'd thought it might be insurance-related, which might pessimistically be called collusion between the FIA and insurance companies. Immediately after I penned that post it occurred to me that the plethora of oddball racing, specifically truck (semi/highway/big-rig) racing is surely not an FIA-governed event, though I haven’t looked.

[GreenMachine]

Interesting. I'd thought it might be insurance-related, which might pessimistically be called collusion between the FIA and insurance companies. Immediately after I penned that post it occurred to me that the plethora of oddball racing, specifically truck (semi/highway/big-rig) racing is surely not an FIA-governed event, though I haven’t looked.

My understanding is that CAMS came about just after WW2, principally as a means of providing insurance for motorsport events at the lowest cost. Partly this is based on spreading of risk, and partly on regulating the events to manage/reduce the risks. This sheds a particular light on the way CAMS operates, and the criticisms made of it.

Given the competitor sanctioning organisations that have appeared recently, the ease with which the various licences can be obtained from them, and the much lower entry costs charged for their events, I would not want to be either the first person who has to make a big call on their insurers, or the relevant organisers or sanctioning body having to deal with the consequences.