37 replies to this topic

[Roger Clark]

Everybody knows that Alfa Romeo built four different cars for the 1938-39 Grand Prix formula: the 308C, the 312, the 316 and the 162. none of them raced very much, and the 162 not at all, so information is hard to come by, but I'm trying to find out what I can.

The 312 and the 316 were based on the 12C-37 which raced occasionally in the last year of the 750kg formula. These cars were noted for carrying their fuel in a saddle tank over the drivers legs. The Peter Hull/Roy Slater book on Alfas says that the 308C was similarly 12C-37 based but this was clearly not so. The 308C has a large fuel tank in the tail and looks completely different - like a larger version of the 1938 158 to my eyes.

At Pau in 1938 Nuvolari and Emilio Villoresi practiced in 308Cs but Nuvolari's caught fire causing the withdrawal of both 308Cs and Nuvolari's eventual departure from Alfa Romeo. Hull/Slater says that the fire was caused by a leak in the saddle tank, Lief Snellman's website says the same. That can't be the case if the car didn't have a saddle tank. Does anybody have any other information about the cause of the fire?

In 1948, Achille Varzi drove a 4.5-litre V12 Alfa in Argentina. This was said to be based on a pre-war Grand Prix car. Does anybody know which one? I thought is was the 12C-37/312/316 but it doesn't look like that. It looks to me as though the Varzi car carried its fuel in the tail. On the other hand its chassis plate says 12C/316!

Alfa Romeo Argentina by Chritian Bertschi and Estanislao Iacona contains a picture of a V12 Alfa without bodywork, said to be the Varzi car in Milan before it was sent to Argentina. It definitely doesn't have a scuttle tank. David Venables' First Among Champions also has a naked V12, said to be a 312 in spring 1938. I would say that they are the same car, and could even be the same occasion. There is no background visible in either picture but the ground is similarly paved. That isn't conclusive because I have seen other pictures of Alfas on similar ground; it could be the road outside the factory.

Any comments, additions or corrections would be welcome. I do know, by the way, that Simon Moore is working on a book which will probably answer all these questions and many others but I don't know when it's due..

Edited by Roger Clark, 08 July 2009 - 19:07.

[Arjan de Roos]

The 308, 312 and 316 had the same chassis.

The cause of the fire was a leak in the fuel tank.

[Roger Clark]

The 308, 312 and 316 had the same chassis.

The cause of the fire was a leak in the fuel tank.

Are you sure? The 312 and the 316 look the same but the 308 was very different. I thought it was derived from the 8C-35.

[dretceterini]

Are you sure? The 312 and the 316 look the same but the 308 was very different. I thought it was derived from the 8C-35.

The 308 WAS derived from the 8c1935 (and the 12c1936, as far as chassis)

There were a number of 12c36 (4.1 liter) and 12c37 (4.5 liter) motors (and cars) that went to south America.

Rumors persist that Tipo 412 (8c2900A with 12c37 engine) S/N 412151 went there instead of Spain. The car was going to be sold by Cortese to Henry Wessells here in the US circa 1960, but when Wessells replied, he was told the car had been sold. There is an article in a circa 1960 Road and Track about the car being driven through the streets of Milan, and Mark Wallach saw the car in a shop in Milan circa 1959!

The motor still exists, and the rest of the car reportedly was used to create a Plymouth Nardi tube chassis prototype with a Plymouth V8!!! I have photos of the Plymouth coupe "in period" if anyone wants them, and of the Vignale bodied Alfa 412 Bonetto 1951 Mille Miglia car that the motor came out of, which was with Nardi's daughter for many years!!

Edited by dretceterini, 09 July 2009 - 01:58.

[Carter Hendricks]

Rumors persist that Tipo 412 (8c2900A with 12c37 engine) S/N 412151 went there instead of Spain. The car was going to be sold by Cortese to Henry Wessells here in the US circa 1960, but when Wessells replied, he was told the car had been sold. There is an article in a circa 1960 Road and Track about the car being driven through the streets of Milan, and Mark Wallach saw the car in a shop in Milan circa 1959!

Rather than starting over again I'll just paste in some precision from an interesting AlfaBB thread from last December:


In the August '99 issue of Forza Marc Wallach writes a letter to the editor about his 1958 visit to Nardi at his last workshop at 8 via Vincenzo Lancia, TO. He mentions seeing two sports racing cars powered by 6C2500 engines. But he also mentions "a wonderful V12 Alfa Romeo GP 12C chassis with a postwar, two-seater body by Vignale." The dark snap shot shows Marc next to what looks like the Vignale 412, but now without the headrest.

--Carter


[Stu mentions hearing this story but with a different date. But here we have the date 1958 written by Wallach and further confirmed by MW's remark that they were on the way to the Monza Indy car race. And we have this nice photo].

[Roger Clark]

Rumors persist that Tipo 412 (8c2900A with 12c37 engine) S/N 412151 went there instead of Spain. The car was going to be sold by Cortese to Henry Wessells here in the US circa 1960, but when Wessells replied, he was told the car had been sold. There is an article in a circa 1960 Road and Track about the car being driven through the streets of Milan, and Mark Wallach saw the car in a shop in Milan circa 1959!

Can you tell me anything of that car before it went to South America? I thought the 8c2900A/412 was a sportscar.
Was it converted to a single seater?

[dretceterini]

Can you tell me anything of that car before it went to South America? I thought the 8c2900A/412 was a sportscar.
Was it converted to a single seater?

Roger:

You are correct; the Tipo 8c2900A/Tipo 412 was a sportscar...but they had a 12c36 or 12c37 motor GP car motor. According to Fusi 4 cars were built, all with Touring coachwork similar to the 1938MM winning 8c2900Bs, but a bit sqarer looking., in 1938 or 1939. Simon Moore has only found two. 412151 was rebodied by Vignale and ran in the 1951 MM. This is the car that the engine was removed from, and the rest of the car reportedly reworked into a Plymouth special! 412152 is in the Schlumpf museum, and was rebodied (in Belgium?) circa 1950. It is fairly complete. Peter Zobian has one of the carbs from one of these cars! They ran both with carbs in the V, and supercharged, in various races. Check out the other Alfa 412 threads in search. LOTS of additional detail...

Best,
Stu

[Arjan de Roos]

Are you sure? The 312 and the 316 look the same but the 308 was very different. I thought it was derived from the 8C-35.

So I am told, and I read it again in Cimarosti.

[Roger Clark]

Roger:

You are correct; the Tipo 8c2900A/Tipo 412 was a sportscar...but they had a 12c36 or 12c37 motor GP car motor. According to Fusi 4 cars were built, all with Touring coachwork similar to the 1938MM winning 8c2900Bs, but a bit sqarer looking., in 1938 or 1939. Simon Moore has only found two. 412151 was rebodied by Vignale and ran in the 1951 MM. This is the car that the engine was removed from, and the rest of the car reportedly reworked into a Plymouth special! 412152 is in the Schlumpf museum, and was rebodied (in Belgium?) circa 1950. It is fairly complete. Peter Zobian has one of the carbs from one of these cars! They ran both with carbs in the V, and supercharged, in various races. Check out the other Alfa 412 threads in search. LOTS of additional detail...

Best,
Stu

Thanks. I know the threads if not all the contents but it was the Grand Prix cars I was interested in.

[Roger Clark]

Can anybody tell me anything about the 316 that Farina drove in the 1939 Belgian Grand Prix? There is a picture in Automobile Historique #5, novembre/decembre 2000. It is not very clear, but the car looks different from earlier 312/316s. It is similar to the car pictured in a number of books captioned as a styling mock up of the 162. Were there any other modifications, apart from the bodywork?

[dretceterini]

Can anybody tell me anything about the 316 that Farina drove in the 1939 Belgian Grand Prix? There is a picture in Automobile Historique #5, novembre/decembre 2000. It is not very clear, but the car looks different from earlier 312/316s. It is similar to the car pictured in a number of books captioned as a styling mock up of the 162. Were there any other modifications, apart from the bodywork?

I believe that there were two Tipo 316s; one basically a 12c37 with the 16 cylinder motor, and a second car that looked like the 162...

[RStock]

Can anybody tell me anything about the 316 that Farina drove in the 1939 Belgian Grand Prix? There is a picture in Automobile Historique #5, novembre/decembre 2000. It is not very clear, but the car looks different from earlier 312/316s. It is similar to the car pictured in a number of books captioned as a styling mock up of the 162. Were there any other modifications, apart from the bodywork?

Wasn't that the so called "Dolphin Nose" car ? Some more info from Leif Snellmans site .

The third car, the 316, was also a a development of the 12C-37 but featured a 16 cylinder engine, consisting of two 8 cylinder blocks put together in a 60° angle, each with its own crankshaft and supercharger. There was no room for the superchargers in front of the engine so they had to be squeezed in between the cylinder heads. The engine was put into a special 8C/35 / 308 car for the 1938 Tripoli GP where it showed promise during practice but did not fulfil its promises during the race. Development of the car was halted as the team concentrated on the 1.5 litre "Alfetta" and the 316 wasn't seen until the Italian GP where it finished second. At the 1939 Belgian GP the car, raced by Farina, featured a new distintive "dolphin head" style nose. It held the lead during the first laps before being passed eventually to retire with supercharger failure.

I have a photo that I'll send you thru PM's if you like . It might be the same one you mentioned though . Is it at the top of Eau Rouge , with an Auto Union right behind it ?

[Roger Clark]

I believe that there were two Tipo 316s; one basically a 12c37 with the 16 cylinder motor, and a second car that looked like the 162...

It is reported in a number of places that Farina and Biondetti both drove 316s in the 1938 Italian Grand Prix. Can anybody confirm that? If so, was one of them 162-like in appearance. Was Farina's Spa car a third 316 or one of the 1938 cars, modified?

Alfas in Argentina says that there were "probably" three 316s.

[dretceterini]

It is reported in a number of places that Farina and Biondetti both drove 316s in the 1938 Italian Grand Prix. Can anybody confirm that? If so, was one of them 162-like in appearance. Was Farina's Spa car a third 316 or one of the 1938 cars, modified?

Alfas in Argentina says that there were "probably" three 316s.

Two for certain; MAYBE three...

[Hans Etzrodt]

In reference to the four appearances of the Alfa Romeo 316:

The Alfa Romeo 316 surfaced for the first time at the 1938 Tripoli Grand Prix for practice only after it was decided not to enter it for the race due to anticipated overheating problems. This car carried starting number 18, described on Leif Snellman’s Website as “the first 316 engine in a prototype with a Tipo C chassis under a 308 body”. Redaelli has pictures on p87 and 89 of this car with 308 lookalike body and radiator grill.

The second appearance of the 316 occured during August at the Coppa Ciano practice only. According to Patrick Italiano, Farina tested the 316 and because two 312s were lapping faster, Alfa Corse decided not to race the car. Patrick Italiano concludes that in lack of pictorial evidence it might have been the Tripoli version that was tested at Livorno.

The third arrival was at the 1938 Italian Grand Prix at Monza with two lookalike cars. The 316s turned up in different disguise, the engine now fitted “on a 12C 1937 chassis with some adaptions” according to Fusi, who shows pictures of the #30 car on p 363 and 364. The outside appearance was almost the same as the 1938 12-cylinder car, except different exhaust piping on each side, eight instead of six. Farina finished second, one lap behind Nuvolari’s Auto Union. The second 316 with starting #6, driven by Biondetti, finishing fourth, a front view picture is shown by Venables on p 141. Patrick Italiano’s description: “similar but not identical to the 312, was lower and narrower than the Tipo 308, needing larger bulges to cover the engine heads on the sides, and one more bulge, louvered, on top of the bonnet to clear the carburetors...”

The 316’s last appearance took place at the 1939 Belgian Grand Prix. Alfa Corse brought two cars for Farina, one 1938 Italian GP type driven during practice only, the second a 1939 improved 316 version evolved from the second 1938 car seen at Monza but unlike last year's model. This was the dolphin-nosed ugly monster with a newer version of the V-16, 440 hp engine, a less wind resistant exhaust system, enveloped by smother body work with zillions of bonnet louvers to dispel the enormous heat generated by the power plant. Assigned to Giuseppe Farina, it was the only halfway serious competition the Germans had and succumbed with supercharger problems. By the way, it was also the last time the Italian team entered a 3-liter grand prix car. Pictures are found in William Court’s Power and Glory p258 and J.P. Delsaux’s various books not to mention some contemporary magazines.

[Hans Etzrodt]

At Pau in 1938 Nuvolari and Emilio Villoresi practiced in 308Cs but Nuvolari's caught fire causing the withdrawal of both 308Cs and Nuvolari's eventual departure from Alfa Romeo. Hull/Slater says that the fire was caused by a leak in the saddle tank, Lief Snellman's website says the same. That can't be the case if the car didn't have a saddle tank. Does anybody have any other information about the cause of the fire?

The fire started at the fuel tank in the back of the car, buning the back of Nuvolari's overall. He drove off the track into a wood, missing two trees. He jumped out of the cockpit with overalls alight. Two local students arrived first and extinguished Nuvolari's burning overall by wrapping their wind-jackets around him. Pictures related to that incident are in Giovanni Lurani's Nuvolari book.

[Roger Clark]

Hans, many thanks for both your posts, it's good to know that there are still some people who take TNF seriously. The Pau information corrects a number of statements that have appeared over the years. I always believe what you say about these things, but would you mind telling us your sources, for future references.

I do have some questions about the 316 post:

1. You say that Biondetti didn't start at Tripoli in '38., but Sheldon, Slater/Hull and Venables all say that he did, and from the front row of the grid, although he didn't last very long. Obviously, none of these are unimpeachable sources.

2. You say, quoting Patrick Italiano, that the Monza cars had a bulge on top of the bonnet to clear the carburettors. Alesandro Silva has told me that the Monza car had an air scoop on the top of the bonnet to try to ram air in the carburettors. He said this this could be closed in the event of rain. However, I must admit that I have seen no sign of a bulge on the bonnet of the Monza cars, despite having seen several good quality photographs. The Spa car certainly did have a pronounced bonnet-top bulge. Chris Nixon's Auto-Union and Robert Fellowes books contain good pictures.

3. Lastly, there is the vexed question of fuel tanks. The 312 was notable for having a large filler on the scuttle and a tank over the driver's legs. None of the 312 pictures that I have seen show a filler for a fuel tank in the tail. The Monza and Spa 316s, on the other hand definitely did have a fuel tank in the rear. Presumably this is a further difference between the two cars.

In an earlier post on this thread, dretcetrini said that there were "two, possibly three" 316s. It seems to me that there were three, possibly four: The Tripoli car, the two Monza cars and possibly the Spa car, unless there was a modified Monza car.

Apologies if there is anyone who is interested in this but frustrated at not being able to see photographs which illustrate the points. i don't own the copyright. I will give references where I can or email scans if people ask for them.

[dretceterini]

Hans, many thanks for both your posts, it's good to know that there are still some people who take TNF seriously. The Pau information corrects a number of statements that have appeared over the years. I always believe what you say about these things, but would you mind telling us your sources, for future references.

I do have some questions about the 316 post:

1. You say that Biondetti didn't start at Tripoli in '38., but Sheldon, Slater/Hull and Venables all say that he did, and from the front row of the grid, although he didn't last very long. Obviously, none of these are unimpeachable sources.

2. You say, quoting Patrick Italiano, that the Monza cars had a bulge on top of the bonnet to clear the carburettors. Alesandro Silva has told me that the Monza car had an air scoop on the top of the bonnet to try to ram air in the carburettors. He said this this could be closed in the event of rain. However, I must admit that I have seen no sign of a bulge on the bonnet of the Monza cars, despite having seen several good quality photographs. The Spa car certainly did have a pronounced bonnet-top bulge. Chris Nixon's Auto-Union and Robert Fellowes books contain good pictures.

3. Lastly, there is the vexed question of fuel tanks. The 312 was notable for having a large filler on the scuttle and a tank over the driver's legs. None of the 312 pictures that I have seen show a filler for a fuel tank in the tail. The Monza and Spa 316s, on the other hand definitely did have a fuel tank in the rear. Presumably this is a further difference between the two cars.

In an earlier post on this thread, dretcetrini said that there were "two, possibly three" 316s. It seems to me that there were three, possibly four: The Tripoli car, the two Monza cars and possibly the Spa car, unless there was a modified Monza car.

Apologies if there is anyone who is interested in this but frustrated at not being able to see photographs which illustrate the points. i don't own the copyright. I will give references where I can or email scans if people ask for them.

You may be correct about the Tipo 316s, but IMO, there were no more than 3 cars. I guess we just don't have enough photos to know how many for certain....

I guess we will have to wait for Simon Moore's book on the Alfa GP cars of this period that he has been working on for over 10 years

Edited by dretceterini, 03 August 2009 - 13:07.

[ERault]

1. You say that Biondetti didn't start at Tripoli in '38., but Sheldon, Slater/Hull and Venables all say that he did, and from the front row of the grid, although he didn't last very long. Obviously, none of these are unimpeachable sources.

The 316 did not start, but Biondetti did start with a 308. There is a picture p387 in La Scuderia Ferrari 1929-1939 (Orsini / Zagari).

[Roger Clark]

The 316 did not start, but Biondetti did start with a 308. There is a picture p387 in La Scuderia Ferrari 1929-1939 (Orsini / Zagari).

Probably correct, but I can't distinguish that picture from the 316 he drove in practice. Orsini doesn't mention the race in the text. By then, of course, they were not Ferrari entries.

Redaelli's Tripoli book contains the same picture as Orsini/Zagari, also labeled a 308. However, he has another picture from that race, labeled as a 308 which is definitely a 316. The car is in the pits, so it doesn't prove anything about what Biondetti drove in the race, but it does add to the uncertainty.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Hans, many thanks for both your posts, it's good to know that there are still some people who take TNF seriously. The Pau information corrects a number of statements that have appeared over the years. I always believe what you say about these things, but would you mind telling us your sources, for future references.

AUTOMOBIL-REVUE #31, April 12, 1938
AAZ(D) #16, April 16, 1938
Moretti 'When Nuvolari Raced'
Lurani 'Nuvolari'
De Agostini 'Nuvolari'

[ERault]

I don't think I have a photo of the 316 at Tripoli, so I can't compare. The picture in Orsini / Zagari is very dark, but I guess exhaust pipes on the left flank would still have been discernible, especially before the rear wheel, if the car had the V16 engine.

[Hans Etzrodt]

1. You say that Biondetti didn't start at Tripoli in '38., but Sheldon, Slater/Hull and Venables all say that he did, and from the front row of the grid, although he didn't last very long. Obviously, none of these are unimpeachable sources.

AUTOMOBIL-REVUE #40, May 17, 1938: "Biondetti was driving an 8-cylinder instead of the 16-cylinder Alfa Romeo, while Farina, Siena and Sommer drove the 12-cylinder model from Alfa Course."

MOTOR und SPORT #22, May 29, 1938, report by Diplom Engineer E. Hundt: "The 8-cylinder engine of the car driven by Biondetti showed similar symtoms [the third 12-cylinder, driven by Sommer, suffered continuous overheating problems, so that at the beginning of the race the car had to stop every two laps to replace the lost water lost through boiling, later larger jets were installed together with plugs with lower thermal value (hot plug)]."
also : "The 16-cylinder-Alfa...is presently still in the trial stage."

Patrick Italiano article: "Biondetti used the 316 in practice... ...earning the fourth place on the grid... ...however... ...was thus a non starter..."

[Hans Etzrodt]

2...Alesandro Silva has told me that the Monza car had an air scoop on the top of the bonnet to try to ram air in the carburettors. He said this this could be closed in the event of rain. However, I must admit that I have seen no sign of a bulge on the bonnet of the Monza cars, despite having seen several good quality photographs...

I would ask Alessandro for a picture to point out the air scoop and also get the Italian source plus information, which can then be translated to get your answer. Pictures of the #6 and #30 16-cylinder Alfa at the 1938 Italian GP show the center bulge on top of the bonnet. There is also an air scoop visible but just in front of the windscreen and probably for the cockpit cooling.

[Roger Clark]

Patrick Italiano has emailed to say that the Spa car was beyond doubt one of the Monza cars, modifed.

[longhorn]

David Venables in First Among Champions - The Alfa GP Cars (2000) says that Biondetti got the 316 onto the front row at Tripoli but was 4 seconds slower than the two Mercedes. He struggled during the race and fell out before the end.

Philip

[Hans Etzrodt]

Patrick Italiano has emailed to say that the Spa car was beyond doubt one of the Monza cars, modifed.

We already read this in post 15.

[Hans Etzrodt]

David Venables in First Among Champions - The Alfa GP Cars (2000) says that Biondetti got the 316 onto the front row at Tripoli but was 4 seconds slower than the two Mercedes. He struggled during the race and fell out before the end.

Philip

That is correct, except that Venables did not report that Biondetti started on race day with a 308, while the 316 was not used in the race. This was explained in post 23.

[longhorn]

Hans

Thanks for that correction. Interestingly, just to compound the incorrect statements, Borgeson in Alfa Romeo Tradition says that the two 308's were driven by Siena (fatal accident) and Sommer who finished 4th. The two 312's were driven by Farina (eliminated in the Hartmann incident) and Biondetti, who retired before half distance, and, having tried the 316 in practice.

I'm inclined to believe your version, particularly as you have access to contemporary reports and we don't know where the Venables and Borgeson information came from.

Philip

[Roger Clark]

The books I have read recently about these cars have been so fraught with errors as to make me doubt everything that is not supported by photgraphic evidence.

[dretceterini]

Everybody knows that Alfa Romeo built four different cars for the 1938-39 Grand Prix formula: the 308C, the 312, the 316 and the 162. none of them raced very much, and the 162 not at all, so information is hard to come by, but I'm trying to find out what I can.

The 312 and the 316 were based on the 12C-37 which raced occasionally in the last year of the 750kg formula. These cars were noted for carrying their fuel in a saddle tank over the drivers legs. The Peter Hull/Roy Slater book on Alfas says that the 308C was similarly 12C-37 based but this was clearly not so. The 308C has a large fuel tank in the tail and looks completely different - like a larger version of the 1938 158 to my eyes.

At Pau in 1938 Nuvolari and Emilio Villoresi practiced in 308Cs but Nuvolari's caught fire causing the withdrawal of both 308Cs and Nuvolari's eventual departure from Alfa Romeo. Hull/Slater says that the fire was caused by a leak in the saddle tank, Lief Snellman's website says the same. That can't be the case if the car didn't have a saddle tank. Does anybody have any other information about the cause of the fire?

In 1948, Achille Varzi drove a 4.5-litre V12 Alfa in Argentina. This was said to be based on a pre-war Grand Prix car. Does anybody know which one? I thought is was the 12C-37/312/316 but it doesn't look like that. It looks to me as though the Varzi car carried its fuel in the tail. On the other hand its chassis plate says 12C/316!

Alfa Romeo Argentina by Chritian Bertschi and Estanislao Iacona contains a picture of a V12 Alfa without bodywork, said to be the Varzi car in Milan before it was sent to Argentina. It definitely doesn't have a scuttle tank. David Venables' First Among Champions also has a naked V12, said to be a 312 in spring 1938. I would say that they are the same car, and could even be the same occasion. There is no background visible in either picture but the ground is similarly paved. That isn't conclusive because I have seen other pictures of Alfas on similar ground; it could be the road outside the factory.

Any comments, additions or corrections would be welcome. I do know, by the way, that Simon Moore is working on a book which will probably answer all these questions and many others but I don't know when it's due..

The Varzi car was owned by Symbolic Motors in La Jolla Clifornia about 10 years ago. The chassis plate said it was a 12c37 that had a 316 motor in it at one time. The 12c37, 312 and 316 chassis are virtually identical. The grille was changed to look like a Tipo 158 in Argentina, in period...circa 1947...

I have always been under the impression that the Tipo 308 used an 8c35/12c36 "taller" chassis than the 12c37, 312 or 316.

Edited by dretceterini, 06 August 2009 - 02:58.

[Roger Clark]

The Varzi car was owned by Symbolic Motors in La Jolla Clifornia about 10 years ago. The chassis plate said it was a 12c37 that had a 316 motor in it at one time. The 12c37, 312 and 316 chassis are virtually identical. The grille was changed to look like a Tipo 158 in Argentina, in period...circa 1947...

I have always been under the impression that the Tipo 308 used an 8c35/12c36 "taller" chassis than the 12c37, 312 or 316.

The 316 at Monza and Spa had a fuel tank in the tail which I believe the 312 had not. The Varzi car certainly did so that would support the view that it was based on a 316.

I also thought that the 308 was based on the tipo C.

[Patrick Italiano]

I can do no other than confirm Hans Etzrodt's information, which is based on my own research. Since I was aware that too many books had purported inaccuracies about those cars, I did base that research on pictures analysis and Italian racing magazines of the time. Albeit 8 years old, it has not been significantly challenged, yet new info will be available in Simon Moore's GP book.

I'm surprised that Alessandro associates the air ram intake with the 1938 cars, because, exactly as he describes it, it's an unique feature of the Spa 1939 "ugly nose", whose intake was indeed covered for the wet race.

The sadle tanks always were extra ones, no way any car of the time and layout could carry enough fuel in such a tank!

Moore's book on the GP cars is due next year, in occasion of Alfa's centenary.

[Manel Bar�]

Its a real pleasure to read the informative comments of the A-R connoisseurs. Just a side question for them: Period images show the curious "dolphin nose" testing at Monza with the usual Pirellis while at the 1939 Belgian GP, she sported Engleberts: Was it an agreement with the Belgian tire manufacturer just for its home country GP or did lasted any longer?. As far as I recall, when the A-R racing activity was handled by the SF, their cars relied on Englebert time to time.

[Patrick Italiano]

Its a real pleasure to read the informative comments of the A-R connoisseurs. Just a side question for them: Period images show the curious "dolphin nose" testing at Monza with the usual Pirellis while at the 1939 Belgian GP, she sported Engleberts: Was it an agreement with the Belgian tire manufacturer just for its home country GP or did lasted any longer?. As far as I recall, when the A-R racing activity was handled by the SF, their cars relied on Englebert time to time.

The Scuderia indeed had different contracts according to the country where races were held. Englebert in Belgium, for sure, but also in a few other countries (I can't tell exactly which ones by memory). Pirellis in Italy and colonies. Self evidently Alfa Corse maintained the same agreements.

I would like to see the revised 316 on Pirellis at Monza, as I don't recall I have a picture showing the tyres marque. Can you give the source and, possibly, send a scan privately? Thanks and best wishes.

[Manel Bar�]

The Scuderia indeed had different contracts according to the country where races were held. Englebert in Belgium, for sure, but also in a few other countries (I can't tell exactly which ones by memory). Pirellis in Italy and colonies. Self evidently Alfa Corse maintained the same agreements.

I would like to see the revised 316 on Pirellis at Monza, as I don't recall I have a picture showing the tyres marque. Can you give the source and, possibly, send a scan privately? Thanks and best wishes.

Thanks Patrick. You have a PM.
Best wishes to you and all TNF readers!

[monoposto]

I can do no other than confirm Hans Etzrodt's information, which is based on my own research. Since I was aware that too many books had purported inaccuracies about those cars, I did base that research on pictures analysis and Italian racing magazines of the time. Albeit 8 years old, it has not been significantly challenged, yet new info will be available in Simon Moore's GP book.

I'm surprised that Alessandro associates the air ram intake with the 1938 cars, because, exactly as he describes it, it's an unique feature of the Spa 1939 "ugly nose", whose intake was indeed covered for the wet race.

The sadle tanks always were extra ones, no way any car of the time and layout could carry enough fuel in such a tank!

Moore's book on the GP cars is due next year, in occasion of Alfa's centenary.

Is there any more news on when / if this is due ?

[ERault]

Probably correct, but I can't distinguish that picture from the 316 he drove in practice. Orsini doesn't mention the race in the text. By then, of course, they were not Ferrari entries.

Redaelli's Tripoli book contains the same picture as Orsini/Zagari, also labeled a 308. However, he has another picture from that race, labeled as a 308 which is definitely a 316. The car is in the pits, so it doesn't prove anything about what Biondetti drove in the race, but it does add to the uncertainty.

Film footage from Tripoli 1938 here :
Biondetti's Alfa is pushed on the grid at around 35s and is definitely a 308.