42 replies to this topic

[Mondiale 41]

I'm a sucker for supposed "rear of the grid" 500cc bikes so has anyone got any pics of the one offs and not so factory machines from 1992 onwards? IIRC did Van den Goorbergh put an MZ on pole somewhere, also i'm sure Cadalora rode it for at least one race too??

[philippe7]

Brilliant thread idea, which could if you agree include a few earlier years to incorporate all those "500cc two-stroke non-japanese" machines such as the Krauser in-line 4 used in sidecars ( and maybe bikes too ? ) or the Fior engine which I think is also a variant of the in-line 4 built by the french JPX people, those behind (among other things ) the engine of the 6 cylinders 250 Honda George Beale re-creation...

It would be fun to trace what really is behind the official branding names, since I suspect many of those have more than a few things in common...

All I can offer to start is this picture of the Roc-Swissauto-Elf which I took at the 2008 Coupes Moto-Légende at Dijon-Prenois. Not much too see engine-wise sadly due to those bl....y all-enveloping delta-box frames

[SeaDoubleYou]

Donington 1996.... but who and what?

Edited by SeaDoubleYou, 13 July 2009 - 21:59.

[picblanc]

Donington 1996.... but who and what?

Juan Borja Elf Roc 500

Edited by picblanc, 14 July 2009 - 07:47.

[SeaDoubleYou]

Well Done Mr Fu, It is Juan Borja on the Elf 500 Roc

[Mondiale 41]

Chris Walker rode that bike too didn't he? IIRC he left Old Spice Ducati to jump into 500's?

[exclubracer]

Chris Walker rode that bike too didn't he? IIRC he left Old Spice Ducati to jump into 500's?

Really, I never knew that CW was in 500's at the top level!

[LamboNZ]

Really, I never knew that CW was in 500's at the top level!

He rode the Shell sponsored RS500V twin, and then the V4 NSR for a couple of races before the team got into mone difficulties.

Edited by LamboNZ, 15 July 2009 - 08:23.

[exclubracer]

He rode the Shell sponsored RS500V twin, and then the V4 NSR for a couple of races before the team got into mone difficulties.

Thanks for the info Nigel, I didn't know that.

I wonder what happened to all the Honda 500 V-2's, they seemed to disappear off the radar all at once, an expensive white elephant? The last one I remember seeing was (I think) ridden by Jim Moodie at the '98 TT.

Just to add, I also recall a rider who used to race one at club meetings, Cadwell was one circuit he ran at. I don't remember his name but you'd need to be seriously well-heeled to race one of those at club level I think!

Edited by exclubracer, 15 July 2009 - 09:43.

[SeaDoubleYou]

I could be proven wrong, but I am fairly certain that CW never raced a V-Twin, he raced the Shell Advance V4 for the Hardwick team in 2001, where his team mate was Leon Haslam (who DID race the V2) up unitl Sachsenring in that season, when CW was unceremoniously given the elbow and thereafter Leon rode the 4 cylinder, with (I think!!) Ozzi youngster Brendan Clarke riding the V2.

Chris Walker made his debut in GP's in 1995?? a guess! on the Padgetts run Harris-Yamaha as a last minute wildcard at Donington - same year that he also ran as a wildcard in 250's, the following year he again appeared as a wildcard but this time as a team mate to Juan Borja, pictured above - will have a root around to see if I can find any pictures (probably blurred), I think that he also appeared for the team at a few events later in the season after splitting with the Old Spice Ducati team in British Superbikes. Old Spice team-mate Terry Rymer also moved into GP's (and possibly assisted in getting CW the ride??) with Lucky Strike Suzuki.

As an aside, I can also recall someone running a V2 at club meetings (can definately remember seeing him at Cadwell) sometime around '97ish, and the name Stuart Sutherland??? seems to ring a bell... but a lot of time and red wine has passed since then!

Edited by SeaDoubleYou, 15 July 2009 - 10:31.

[rossifumi46]

I believe Chris was the last rider to score points in 250 and 500 GP's on the same day...Donington 95 as mentioned

[LamboNZ]

Yeah thinking back, you are propably right about the Harwdwick ride seadoubleyou.
You are also correct about Stuart Sutherland, he was the owner of Caledonia Homes, who sponsored Callum Ramsey for years.

[SeaDoubleYou]

Another (not too challenging) WWW.....

[littlemono82]

Think his name is at his back on the Muz 500 and he won 1 gp in the UK, beating Doohan by a mile and he was not on a honda

[picblanc]

Not sure it is Simon as he has recently had a very bad accident (supermoto?) in Europe somewhere? in the last two weeks, quite badly hurt by all accounts. But again I could be wrong and he has made an amazing recovery!?

Sorry thought it was a goodwood pic, but its a period shot so its obviously Simon, I will stand in the corner!!

Edited by picblanc, 16 July 2009 - 20:40.

[SeaDoubleYou]

Wow! That didn't last long!!!

It is Simon on his opening laps aboard the MuZ Weber at Donington in 1999, the year after he won the British GP, beating Doohan by the proverbial country mile..

For a bonus point, can you name who the team manager (of Muz Weber) was that year?

[philippe7]

It is Simon on his opening laps aboard the MuZ Weber at Donington in 1999, the year after he won the British GP, beating Doohan by the proverbial country mile..

Without in any way trying to diminish the merits of Simon Crafar ( a great rider by all means ) wasn't there some sort of "unfair advantage" on the tyres front that day ? Vaguely reminds me of something .......After all, that was also the case on the day when Régis Laconi won his Grand Prix on the similar Red Bull Yamaha , IIRC......

[Rennmax]

Wow! That didn't last long!!!


For a bonus point, can you name who the team manager (of Muz Weber) was that year?

Eskil Suter ??

[littlemono82]

Eskil Suter ??

Wasn't rolf biland the multipal sidecar worldchamp, the teammanager for a year?

[SeaDoubleYou]

Good guess, but the team manager wasn’t Eskil Suter. It was Rolf Biland !! Well done

Rolf, was of course one of the driving forces behind the Swissauto project, This is Rolf during his racing days .. 1996



I think that a lot was made of Simon Crafar’s supposedly lucky win, but my opinion as a spectator that day was that he just rode the thing really well, that was a day when he was undoubtedly very confident and he took the fight to Doohan almost right from the off. I always felt that Simon went well at Donington anyway and I can remember that race day was significantly cooler than practice/qualifying. It was also notable that the wind changed direction between morning warm-up and the race.

My opinion is that he just got his set-up bang-on that day, to illustrate the point his team –mate Laconi (no slouch round Donington either) finished 8th. Of course the following season, the team switched to Michelin’s, Crafar struggled and soon found himself without a ride before the above appearance on the MuZ Weber.

[rossifumi46]

Without in any way trying to diminish the merits of Simon Crafar ( a great rider by all means ) wasn't there some sort of "unfair advantage" on the tyres front that day ? Vaguely reminds me of something .......After all, that was also the case on the day when Régis Laconi won his Grand Prix on the similar Red Bull Yamaha , IIRC......

I believe it was one of those wet/dry days at Valencia when Laconi won his one and only GP

BTW....I'm a newbie...has there ever been a 'who has won both 500GP/MotoGP and WSB races'questions on this forum???

[exclubracer]

BTW....I'm a newbie...has there ever been a 'who has won both 500GP/MotoGP and WSB races'questions on this forum???

There has now!!

Troy Corser.

Did Colin Edwards win a MotoGP race? Don't remember if he did.

Can't think of any more.

[Coupe Kawasaki]

Thanks for the info Nigel, I didn't know that.

I wonder what happened to all the Honda 500 V-2's, they seemed to disappear off the radar all at once, an expensive white elephant? The last one I remember seeing was (I think) ridden by Jim Moodie at the '98 TT.

Just to add, I also recall a rider who used to race one at club meetings, Cadwell was one circuit he ran at. I don't remember his name but you'd need to be seriously well-heeled to race one of those at club level I think!

Jay Vincent bust the lap record and did all of the BSB boys at Mallory on a V twin but I forget the year and the race! They weren't cheap were they? About 80,ooo quid comes to mind.

David

[Coupe Kawasaki]

There has now!!

Troy Corser.

Did Colin Edwards win a MotoGP race? Don't remember if he did.

Can't think of any more.

Biaggi must have done?

[SeaDoubleYou]

I agree that Biaggi has done, Did Barros win a WSB race??

Neither Corser nor Edwards have won in 500's or MotoGP, Kocinski won in 500's and WSB and Checa has won in 500's and WSB but not MotoGP. Not many have won in all 3 me thinks...

[rossifumi46]

Oh goody...

Yep i believe Barros did get win his his only WSB season.

Makoto Tamada has won in Moto GP and WSB....hard to believe now!

A certain Troy Bayliss has too.....which was his last ever GP ride..Valancia 2006 and the last ever 800 win

[rossifumi46]

Mick Doohan also..500 GP and WSB

[exclubracer]

There has now!!

Troy Corser.

Did Colin Edwards win a MotoGP race? Don't remember if he did.

Can't think of any more.

WHOOPS!!!

My mistake, I should have said Troy Bayliss, of course!!

[Coupe Kawasaki]

Oh goody...

Yep i believe Barros did get win his his only WSB season.

Makoto Tamada has won in Moto GP and WSB....hard to believe now!

A certain Troy Bayliss has too.....which was his last ever GP ride..Valancia 2006 and the last ever 800 win

Barros won both races at Salt Lake last year didn't he?


David

[Coupe Kawasaki]

So is Biaggi the only rider to win 250/500/MotoGP and WSB?

David

[rossifumi46]

Yeah yeah i believe you

Regis Laconi too 500 GP and WSB

Sadly not Simon Crafer though...was taken out by Kocinski when leading on last lap in Indonesia i think it was.

Frankie Chili although his 500 win was the Misano boycotted race

Chris Vermeulen...Moto GP and WSB

Marco Lucchinelli....inc the very 1st WSB race at Donington

[Coupe Kawasaki]

Barros won both races at Salt Lake last year didn't he?


David

oops, it was 'Chuckit' Checa not Barros


Sorry!


David!

[rossifumi46]

oops, it was 'Chuckit' Checa not Barros


Sorry!


David!

Barros Imola 2006

[rossifumi46]

So is Biaggi the only rider to win 250/500/MotoGP and WSB?

David

Yep could be...until Valentino has a go

Edited by rossifumi46, 17 July 2009 - 13:52.

[rossifumi46]

So thats 10...which leaves just one more

Anybody?

[Coupe Kawasaki]

Did Marco Luchinelli win a superbike race or am I being really silly?

David

[rossifumi46]

Yeah yeah i believe you

Regis Laconi too 500 GP and WSB

Sadly not Simon Crafer though...was taken out by Kocinski when leading on last lap in Indonesia i think it was.

Frankie Chili although his 500 win was the Misano boycotted race

Chris Vermeulen...Moto GP and WSB

Marco Lucchinelli....inc the very 1st WSB race at Donington

Sure did

[Macca]

You're going to have to remind us of the 10th one.............

Meanwhile, back on topic:



Good luck with the WWW; sorry I never had pit access to get any shots of the engines and chassis (though I did post some of the Fior on another thread - have to find them again).

Paul M

[SeaDoubleYou]

Pic in the Top Right, #16 Marco Papa on the Librenti at Donington in 1992. With Peter Goddard's ROC-Yamaha in the background along with MacKenzie and Kees Doorakkers.

Is #24 Lucio Pedercini on the Paton?

Top Middle pic, #16 I think is Marco Papa on the Paton, 1989?

Top Left pic, #36 is (I think) Andreas Leuthe on the Librenti 1989?

Struggling with the other pic though...

[picblanc]

3rd pic Fogarty in MBM leathers Donny 1992? crashed (along with Chandler & Shwantz) on oil dropped by Kochinzci? at Redgate when in 4th on a private Medd builders sponsored Harris 500 Yamaha.
#16 Marco Papa I think rider on left is Niggi Schmassmann?

Edited by picblanc, 22 July 2009 - 20:27.

[picblanc]

#29 Andreas Leuthe?

[Macca]

From my programmes:
#38 Rene Zanatta, Paton, 1988 (DNQ)
yellow #16 Marco Papa, Paton, 1989
white #16 Marco Papa, Librenti, 1992
#24 Lucio Pedercini, Paton, 1992
#29 Andreas Leuthe, VRP, 1992

Paul M

[fulgenzius]

hi hello macca
j cannot see the pics of andreas leuthe on librenti.
and also marco papa on librenti
can u (or someone) send me this photo on my mail?
fulgenzius@hotmail.com

j am very interested on the story of librenti
someone know it?
j know that in 1989 librenti run with suzuki engine and chassis from your team , perhaps maked from the italian golinelli.
in 1990 the engine was a honda but j don't know if 4v or not.
the chassis was from him or better golinelli.
in 1991 idem
in 1992 marco papa pilot and all bike and engine maked in italy, librenti fuzzi maked engine.

you can see accension of restaured librenti 1992 here...

and here


now j can give u my special bike with a chassis maked from VRP
www.rgv500.135.it


please send me photos, j need information for a my new proget
thanks you