58 replies to this topic

[Joe Fan]

Well, time to start up another lively debate--what are your picks? Also what is everyone's favorite sportscar of all-time.

1) It would have to be one of the Porsche's but I am undecided on which one--as there were many. Hope someone could nail one down and have a good supporting argument as to why they believe so.

2) I would have to say that Jacky Ickx was the greatest sportscar driver of all-time without a doubt.

3) My personal favorite sports car would have to be the Ford GT40.


[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 03-10-2000).]

[f li]

Joe,

We need to narrow this down a bit - are we dealing with sports cars such as the production classes? or sports prototype? or the unlimited CanAm beasts?

If you include the latter - Jim Hall/Hap Sharp and his damn Chapparals weren't half bad - although McLaren (with McLaren, Hulme and Revson) and Porsche (with Penske and Capt. Nice) pretty much killed the series.

[AUSTRIA]

Yeah f li; the McLarens and the 917s. And they sounded. Infernal ...

But dont forget the earlier days, when the pretty and gorgeous french Delahayes and Talbots were running. I'll try to put some pics on.

Drivers by that time: Wimille, Sommer, Cortese, Biondetti; and occasional starting, beeing no typical sportscar-man: Nuvolari, one of the most impressing drivers for ever.




[This message has been edited by AUSTRIA (edited 03-10-2000).]

[Keir]

I'm sure there will arguements but,
The Porsche 917
Pedro Rodriguez

Reasons: Not the easiest car to drive, just ask John Woolfe, but I believe that might take some special phone system!!!

Pedro: Brands Hatch 1970, Rain!!!
Spa, anytime
Osterriechring, ditto

For you older lads:
I give you Stirling Moss and Mercedes.
Mille Miglia with Jenks.
Need I say more??

------------------
"I Was Born Ready"

[BRG]

I suppose that it has to be the Porsche 956. In an age of prototypes, it was a true customer car, even coming with door locks and an ignition key, yet it still blew all the rest away for years. And it was good looking, fast, reliable and (so they say) satisfying to drive.

And I cannot argue with Joe Fan’s choice of Jacky Ickx. All those Le Mans wins didn’t come by chance, but by consummate skill in balancing speed and mechanical sympathy.

Another truly great sports car driver, but often overlooked or forgotten, was another Belgian, Oliver Gendebien, a five time Le Mans winner. Perhaps it is something in the water (or more likely in the beer) in Belgium?


------------------
BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[f li]

May I nominate the Lotus 23? Great drives, J Clark at the debut of the Lotus 1600cc TwinCam on the Nordschliefe?

[Art]

My pick would be Mark Donahoe in the Turbo Panzer Porsche. It looked like it was at speed while setting still.

Art NX3L

[f li]

Art, but didn't someone else take the championship for Porsche with the Flying Brick before Mark?

[ZippyD]

As far as a car goes I would have to pick the Chapparals of Jim Hall. The cars just looked so damn strange and futuristic.
I remember a great Brockbank cartoon of the high wing Chapparal in the Mille Mille. As the car is blasting through some small village the towns people had a grappling hook with a rope hanging from a banner across the square. A very angry Jim Hall, with cigar firmly clenched between his teeth is going through the square sans wing as the crowd cheers.
For drivers, it's hard to dispute Jacky Icks' claim to the best. As a second driver how about Henri Pescorollo(sic)? Not much in F1. A terror at the long distance stuff.

------------------
"Pete, Do you sometimes get tired? Of the driving? Lately I have been getting tired. Very tired."

[f li]

May I nominate A. Prost as someone who would have done extremely well at endurance racing had he elected to drive endurance cars?

[Art]

F li

Mark and the Turbo Panzer were my favorites of the Can Am series.

Art NX3L

[ZippyD]

F li,
Don't let Keir hear you talk like that. He's a Prost hater.

------------------
"Pete, Do you sometimes get tired? Of the driving? Lately I have been getting tired. Very tired."

[Ray Bell]

The Lotus 23 was a junkpile, but a better junkpile than anyone else had at the time. Look at what happened when the BT5 came along.
That said, a correction is needed - F li, the 23 debut at the Nurburgring was in 1100cc guise.
Now for my additions:

Tazio
Pedro
Stirling

And remember that Peter Collins got a good review for his drive in the 1955 Targa.

Cars:
Chaparall, certainly, 917 is on the list, 300SLR must be there.
Locally: the Matich SR4
Memories: the Ferrari P4 trying to beat Matich's SR3.
Familiarity and fondness: Lotus 23
Desire: McLaren M8C/D etc
How about the 8C 2900? Without it, Biondetti probably wouldn't have rated a mention. Was there any other car to clean sweep the Mille Miglia like this one?

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Fast One]

Boy, this is a tough one. There have been so many great sports car/prototype drivers that it would be hard to name fewer than fifty or so. Moss natually stands out, as does Archie Scott-Brown in the 50s, in addition to the others mentioned. But most Grand Prix drivers were also formidable in sports cars. I've got to give this one much thought. I also agree with f li, or whoever said this should be narrowed somewhat. A great endurance driver is not necessarily a force in a 200 mile race. Of guys who were good at both, you'd have to say Moss, Phil Hill (who was simply incredible), Surtees, McLaren, Gurney, Jim Hall, Pedro Rodriguez, and Chris Amon (who always gets shortchanged) among others, and that's only looking at the 60s. I could prbably add another 20 names just from that decade.

Cars? The 330P2,3, & 4s. The Lola 70, the McLaren M-8s, Aston Db3s, C and D Jags, and damn near any Ferrari from the 50s. By the 70s, Sports ccar and endurance racing was in its death throes, so I don't get too thrilled about most of those cars.

[f li]

Ray,

Didn't some guy named Follmer put a "stinking" 2 liter Porshe engine in a 23B and beat Hall's Chapparals for a title? Junk pile maybe, but then even the most beautiful woman is just $23 worth of chemicals! I guess it has to do with assembly.

I gotta go! --- off to Border's then back to Joe Fan's GT-40 thread!

[Keir]

This category is more about passion than results.
Alain Prost does not belong anywhere near the men who drove in the 50's and 60's.
That's just plain insulting!!! He might have been quite something if he was born twenty years earlier, but I still cringe when I think of his uninspiring drives in F1.
Jerry Lewis played the "Nutty Professor", while Alain played the "Boring Professor".
But that's another story.

I also can't agree with Gurney or Amon.
Both Dan and Chris were F1 drivers, who dabbled with sports cars. So, they weren't pure sports car drivers. They were great all-around drivers, as were most of the drivers of their era.
Phill Hill's rep came from his sports car efforts, as did Rodriguez and Siffert.
Jacky Ickx was always an annoyance, because he never drove a bad car - ever. So the "Great" tag must pass him by.

I chose Rodriguez because sports cars transformed him into another driver, a special driver capable of awe inspiring performances. Pedro was just another guy in F1.

Thankfully no one has challenged the 917.
How could anyone???

The same goes for Stirling and the Mercedes.
Different drivers, differt cars, different eras. Mille Miglia - 'nuff said!!!!

------------------
"I Was Born Ready"

[f li]

Follmer, George ---

He beat Jim Hall's Chapparal for the title one year.

He gave L&M their first victory.

[Ray Bell]

Did he win any races outright?
I think he didn't, but won the points in the 2-litre class and won the title by better consistency.
Am I right.
Nevertheless, the 23 had some errors in its design - or execution, really. There was a great gaping hole in the chassis at a critical point where the gearchange had to go through...
but it was still a car everybody loved, and a car that achieved a lot due to lack of serious opposition.

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Todd]

Do the driver and car need to have been entered in competition together? If not, I'm partial to the Cunningham C4R and Hans J. Stuck. Rudolf Uhlenhaut drove the C4R and said it was the safest, best handling car he'd driven. If you've seen Hans passing everyone else like some sort of time-traveler in a 911 in the rain, you may understand why I think he is a great.

[Ray Bell]

I always thought it a shame HJ never got a real go in F1...
And Marc Surer.

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[CVAndrw]

Ah, Hanschen "Sideways" Stuck! Must be my personal favorite, if only because of the performance I witnessed at Laguna Seca in the IMSA BMW 3.5 CSL. Had the inside front wheel a foot off the ground going through the Corkscrew, and you could hear the hiss of the airdam scraping even over the howl of the engine- I looked after the race and he'd ground about three inches of fiberglass off the outside corner. Not too shabby at the Ring, either, especially in partnership with Niki Lauda (I've never quite understood how those two could fit into the same cockpit).

But I suppose in terms of pure sports car and driver, it would have to be Feel Heel in the Testa Rossa he shared with Gendebien in the rain at Le Mans '58.

And don't feel embarassed about having a weak spot for the Lotus 23- me too, and even worse, I was an absolute sucker for Dan Gurney's starting-money-special Lotus 19/Ford. And even more to my eternal shame, I still lust after the Lotus 30/40!

And since I'm confessing guilty pleasures, I heard stories of A.J. Foyt at Nassau Speed Weeks in a Lotus 19 similar to Gurney's that made my hair stand up.

Oh yeah: Foyt...GT40 MK7...Le Mans...Can Am...Chaparral...Donahue and the 917/30...it all comes back now-

What about Ken Miles and the 427 Cobra?

[Joe Fan]

I am surprised nobody has mentioned Derek Bell, Jochen Mass or Jo Siffert. Also Denny Hulme was a driver who should be mentioned more as he was the Can-Am all time victory leader.

As far as cars go. what about the Porsche 935?

f li, don't feel confined by any ambiguity I may have created. This is more to stimulate discussion on great sportscars and sportscar drivers than anything else.

[Ray Bell]

We had Miles here for the 1965 Australian Tourist Trophy in the Cobra 427. What a beast!
I also feel incensed with myself that I failed to put Seppi on the list, a great indeed.
As for the Lotus 40, you must surely know that it was known popularly as a Lotus 30 with ten extra mistakes?

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Fast One]

I saw Amon and Gurney in sports cars, and while I agree with Keir that both were primarily Grand Prix drivers, I was most impressed by the way they drove them. One of Gurney's greatest drives was at Riverside (was it 66?). And didn't Chris win both Le Mans in a Ford and Daytona in a Ferrari? Not bad...

On the U.S. scene, remember Jerry Grant? He won something like 27 consectutive USRRC races at one point. Never could move up though.

I won't contest the 917. It was a great car. But the glory days of sports car racing were over when it appeared.

[f li]

Ray,

Ray, Like I said, Follmer took the L&M to its first victory. Art mistakenly thinks they were Porsches!

PS Do you fancy MH chances this year in the West or are you betting on MS in the Malboro?

[This message has been edited by f li (edited 03-11-2000).]

[Keir]

Denny Hulme, now there is a surprise!!
Remember the "Bruce and Denny" show?
I don't think either one worked up a sweat during three seasons of CanAm racing. Those McLarens were just too good!!!

Hans Stuck Jr. - always a favorite of mine, but more for his sedan work, and his F1 drives in the rain in the Brabham-Alfa and March, then pure sports cars.

Derek Bell, see my take on Ickx above. The same applies for Derek.

Jo Siffert, usually second to Rodriguez, but an almost great one.

Now, I'm a little disappointed that the old timers didn't mention the "Bently Boys", or the various Jag drivers of the 50's.

------------------
"I Was Born Ready"

[luisfelipetrigo]

My vote goes also to PEDRO RODRIGUEZ.
As most of you comment it is hard to pick someone above all others since many have enough merits.
However, being from Mexico, my preference goes to Pedro. JIckx was very good, one of the best and with one of the best records (with Ferrari 312) but I seem to recall that during the years that Pedro and Jacky competed agains each other (probably the prime for both) Pedro was consistently better. (Jacky was better rounded as we can see from his F1 record versus Pedro's two GP wins)
Unfortunately Pedro died and there was no continuation to his accomplishments.
.
Can-Am is, to me, a different thing. Also very exciting and a great time in auto racing (till the big Porsche (a wonderful car) killed the series).
For Can-Am my vote goes to Peter Revson. Again a personal preference more than a demerit to other fine drivers.
I feel Peter made a good transition to F1 and would have accomplished more.
.
Another interesting thing from the times and names I see in this thread is the fact that in years past top driver would participate in several kinds of racing (F1, F2, Sports, CanAme, Indy) while these days this does not happens. I feel this is unfortunate to us 'aficionados'.
.

------------------
Saludos
Luis Felipe

[Falcadore]

My vote is for the Porsche 956/962 series. Introduced in the early 80's it dominated Le Mans and the world sportscar championship into an era when you had to have a Porsche to even compete. And years later when Mercedes-Benz & Jaguar attacked with big budget sportscar campaign the privateers in Porsches could always be counted on the score upsets. In the end the 962's had to be banned before they became uncompetitive after the now obviously unwise turbo ban of the early 90's. Why obvious? Because once turbo cars were allwoed back the category started to return to past glories with big dollar teams, lots of manufacterers and large fields. But that's faded again. At Le Mans the 962 continued to be a threat deep into the 90's despite not being able to race in the world championship.

Oh well.

As for drivers? Klaus Ludwig for sheer longevity, Denny Hulme for the Can-Am era, I don't know much about Rodriguez senior, Jacky Ickx has very impressive runs on the board, he may have had all the good cars but he still had to win the races, but for talent how about poor Stefan Bellof?

Mark Alan Jones
----------
You can take the driver out of the race but you can't take the racer out of the driver.

[buddyt]

A D-type Jaguar painted in BRG is my pick for car. Pedro in a 917 in the rain for driver.

------------------
"Speed cost money, how fast do you want to go?"

[f li]

Keir,

Bruce and Denny - they didn't work up a sweat! But Denny and Peter - they did! Porsche got together with Roger and Mark to run that motorized brick! The McLaren's got engines of 8+ liters and still couldn't compete.

The earlier CanAm years were something else - you can find pictures of mixed crews slaving over an engine. It was racing - racing first, business last!

[Joe Fan]

If distance covered in a 24 hour race is an indication of a great car (and/or great drivers) then here is some information that can be of some help--Le Mans 24 records. Mind you some races that were held in wet conditions won't show their whole story as with circuit modifications in the last part of the century in 1956, 1968, 1972, 1986, 1987, 1990 and 1991.

However, here are the top distances covered in the Le Mans 24 Hours:

1) 5335.31KM(3313.2Mi.) in 1971 by Marko and Van Lennep in a Porshe 917K

2) 5332.79KM(3311.7Mi.) in 1988 by Lammers, Dumfries and Wallace in a Jaguar XJR12

3) 5265.12KM(3269.6Mi.) in 1989 by Mass, Reuter and Dickens in a Sauber C9/88-Mercedes

4) 5232.90KM(3249.6Mi.) in 1967 by Gurney and Foyt in a Ford GT40 MKIV

5) 5100.00KM(3167.1Mi.) in 1993 by Brabham, Helary and Bouchut in a Peugeot 905B

I will post Daytona 24 hours distance records later here.

[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 03-15-2000).]

[f li]

Ray,

Follmer did take a number of races outright. - Roger hired him when Mark Donohue broke his leg. By the time Mark's leg healed, Follmer had done so well that Roger arranged for a second car so Mark could also drive. Both cars were white and under the L&M banner. I thought he didn't do any F1 but I'm wrong (1973 13 races).

[404KF2]

Joe Fan,

Thanks for the excellent stat. and the interesting threads. Having seen the 917 in its prime at Spa, I hope its #1 distance record at Le Mans is never broken.

Best driver: Pedro Rodriguez

Best car: Porsche 917 (any version)

[Joe Fan]

Here are Daytona 24 Hours and Sebring 12 Hours distance covered records:

Daytona 24 Hours:

1) 4439.27KM(2756.70Mi.) in 1970 by Rodriguez and Kinnunen in a Porsche 917

2) 4433.83KM(2753.41Mi.) in 1982 by Paul, Paul Jr. and Stommelen in a Porsche 935

3) 4418.60KM(2743.95Mi.) in 1980 by Stommelen, Jost and Merl in a Porsche 935

4) 4375.34KM(2717.09Mi.) in 1981 by Garretson, Rahal and Redman in a Porsche 935

5) 4360.56KM(2707.91Mi.) in 1992 by Hasemi, Hoshino and Suzuki in a Nissan R91 CP


Sebring 12 Hours:

1) 2359.51KM(1465.26Mi.) in 1982 by Paul and Paul Jr. in a Porsche 935

2) 2237.34KM(1389.39Mi.) in 1986 by Akin, Stuck and Gartner in a Porsche 962

3) 2197.46KM(1364.62Mi.) in 1985 by Wollek and Foyt in a Porshce 962

4) 2177.28KM(1352.1Mi.) in 1989 by Brabham, Robinson and Luyendyk in a Nissan GTP ZX-T

5) 2175.40KM(1351.2Mi.) in 1971 by Elford and Larrousse in a Porsche 917K

P.S. All of these stats are through the 1998 season.

[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 03-19-2000).]

[f li]

Joe Fan,

Those wins in 1982, are you aware that Paul and Paul, Jr were supposedly running with drug money?

[Yohbi]

Mclarens Mk8 and all their variations. Put Denny Hulme behind the wheel and look out.

Endurance racing; Gurney and Derek Bell get my nod.

[Incal]

Just to add to the discussion. I love the Panoz, it so damn ugly it is beautiful. There is something about a car that seems to fly against convention. It is American so the engine is bloody big it sits up front and drives the rear wheels, as I understand it that is basically where Panoz is coming from, you gotta love it.
As to the past, it is hard to go past the 917 or the Gt 40 or a number of Ferraris or etc. There are so many from the start to present day.

[Falcadore]

Thought I'd revive the sports car thread with some pics from the other week

Although I appear to have forgotten how to post pics correctly. Any helplers please?


David Bowden's immaculate GT40 driven by the incomparable Kevin Bartlett


don't know what this is, looks good but it wasn't in the program...



[This message has been edited by Falcadore (edited 04-02-2000).]

[Uncle Davy]

Let us not forget Paul Hawkins (UD deliberately goads the resident historians to illuminate)...

[Uncle Davy]

...and the Lola T70 was a beautiful car, whether Surtees' red or Gurney's blue. Fast, too.

[This message has been edited by Uncle Davy (edited 04-01-2000).]

[Ray Bell]

They sure looked the part... I particularly liked the look of that broad arrow on the Surtees cars. Shame the Aston Martin bit let them down.

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Falcadore]

Ah-ha - belated success - if anyone can identify the red #4 car on the previous page.....

[Ray Bell]

Isn't that the Mirage Cosworth?

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Keir]

That's the 1967 Ford GT40 Mk4.
The Gurney/Foyt LeMans winning model.

------------------
"I Was Born Ready"

[Don Capps]

Hi Don,

I tried to post the following text under ' who was the greatest endurance drivers etc...but I could not as the reply came ' sorry we have nobody registered under the user name ' menditeguy ' ( I tried with small and big characters to no avail)
I wonder if you could do me the favour of posting my text below ?

text:

I wonder why nobody mentioned OLIVIER GENDEBIEN. He was one of the best, certainly better than Pedro Rodriguez and Jacky Ickx, who were good but did not get the same results. The best were probably Fangio and Stirling Moss. Combination of speed and endurance as well as race tactics to finnish.

But going back to Olivier , someone ask Phil Hill who was his best team mate in Sportscars.

Speed; Many exemples. Olivier held the speed record in the last Mille Miglia in his Ferrari GT going faster than the Ferrari sportscars. Fon D.P killed himself trying to get it back, but that is another story.

Speed; His F1 stints, he would have been a World Champion contender had he raced in all the F1 races , he preffered to go skiing.
ie his private entry Ferrari at SPA when he led the pack for the first laps until he remembered what Von Trips had confidentially told him before the start ; Olivier don t be a fool, the red cars ( scuderia F) have a more advance engine than the one at the back of yours ( his yellow shark nosed).

etc..

His endurance; winning so many endurance including the nurbugring for Porsche with Hans Hermann and Le Mans 4 times , as well as the Targa Florio and how many times the TOUR de France for Ferrari?

His ability; night vision was one of his advantages , his team mates would let him take the wheel at night for the longest time possible as he would be a couple of seconds faster.

intelligence and patience ; look at the results and as I said ask Phil Hill.

Pedro Rodriguez lasted as long as the cars did. Infact he broke his Ferrari trying to stay in front of Hill/Gendebien who let them fly ahead to brake the car and collect the trophy; endurance is about tactics.

Ickx; Fast and smart but his results are nowhere near what Olivier achieved.

Note; the jump in start at le Mans was started by Olivier Gendebien who was the first to jump over the door.

Ickx was the first one to walk to the car when all the others ran and jumped into the cockpits.

thank you Don..

best regards

Menditeguy

[My pleasure, Menditeguy!]

------------------
Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[Huw Jenjin]

Does great mean "send shivers up your spine" "pretty" or "boringly effecive",lets leave the pretty drivers out of it, can't think of any but as for sports cars the top of the pile has to be the 917 doesnt it? sends shivers up your spine,very effective in later years and driven by some truly nutty drivers.

Category One
Siffert/Rodriguez et all in the 917s
Ickx/Redman GT40
Stewart Lola 260/Chapparal Vacuum Cleaner

Pretty
Ferrari P4
Ferrari 312P Boxer
Jaguar D type

Boringly effective

McLaren Canam cars
Porsche CanAm Cars
Porsche 956/962

By the way Ickx drove many useless cars, the Lotus 76, 72E, Ligier,Hesketh Wolf, Ensign and Ferrari 512s.
Surer drove Brabhams at the height of their effiency, and Arrows when they were closest to winning. Nah!
Prost.....Sportscars.....now that would send you to sleep.
perhaps they would have a lump in the screen for his nose...sorry.

[Barry Lake]

Huw
"...lets leave the pretty drivers out of it..."?
Why?
We've had a few pretty drivers in Australia - Sue Ransom and Christine Cole in the 1970s, French lady Marie-Claude Beaumont who won her class at Bathurst in the mid-1970s, and diminutive Robyn Hamilton who scared the hell out of our male Formula Ford drivers while she was in the car.
Peter McKay once wrote of Robyn that she had "the best bum in motor sport" - although those fellows who visit gay bars in New York might have other ideas...

[Ray Bell]

No opinion on Leanne Ferrier, Barry, or is that too current and likely to cause you trouble?
And Kym Ferrier wasn't so bad either, but she didn't go winning FF races like Leanne.
I notice you didn't include Lella Lombardi on the 'pretty' list...

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Keir]

I've never seen Robyn's bum, Barry.
And I can assure you that the only bum's I am interested in, are the FEMALE variety.
Do you have a photo of wee Robyn?
Front and Back!!!!

------------------
"I Was Born Ready"

[CVAndrw]

"I wonder why nobody mentioned OLIVIER GENDEBIEN. He was one of the best, certainly better than Pedro Rodriguez and Jacky Ickx, who were good but did not get the same results. The best were probably Fangio and Stirling Moss. Combination of speed and endurance as well as race tactics to finnish.
But going back to Olivier , someone ask Phil Hill who was his best team mate in Sportscars."

Hey! Doesn't this count for at least half a mention? (posted by me, 3/11/00)

"But I suppose in terms of pure sports car and driver, it would have to be Feel Heel in the Testa Rossa he shared with Gendebien in the rain at Le Mans '58."




[This message has been edited by CVAndrw (edited 04-05-2000).]