33 replies to this topic

[Halfwitt]

Does anyone in F1 use magnesium in the construction of their engines? (It would seem a good choice given the current low-mass engines) Every article or specification that I read only ever mentions aluminium. If magnesium is not used, why?

[naes]

hi this is my first post so go easy on me......

there are probably a few reasons:

1) due to the fact that Mg is a reactive metal it can't be used when it comes into contact with some other metals - especially Al

2)at the high temperatures that occur in engines the magnesium may well ignite - it also is very difficult to weld.

that's all I can think of for now,

séan

[rainern]

I believe some Cosworth DFV engines around 1980 used magnesium in the blocks.
Possibly the DFVss ?

[Jonathan]

I thought all the really well-funded succesfull teams used an aluminium-barrilium alloy of some sort. Very light-weight and nearly impossible to machine.

Next year when this stuff becomes outlawed, I am sure they will think of something better... Iron-sleeved Carbon-fibre, perhaps ?

[desmo]

As far as I can tell, all the teams use cast then machined Al alloy blocks. Mg's low yield strength and modulus of elasticity mean that to make an engine part sufficiently stout out of it, would mean the piece would be too large. Compactness is critical to package the engine in the chassis. Wheels where the dimensions are a given are a good application for Mg alloy. I believe some teams are using Mg alloy for their gearbox cases. If anything, for the engine block it might well be adventageous to go the other direction and make a steel case to make the engine yet more compact.

[Powersteer]

Maybe its just aluminium alloy technology has overtaken magnesium

[Ray Bell]

Quite likely... if I remember correctly, the DFY Cosworth was the magnesium variant, and when it was introduced it was in very small numbers. Stories at the time circulated about extreme care having to be taken in warming up etc, but it was considered an advantage to have the weight saving at the time.
Front and rear uprights were once made of magnesium alloys, and probably still are, while some alloy tubs (pre C-F, obviously) had magnesium bulkheads. Gearbox housings were certainly made from this material.

[desmo]

Ray,

Wheel uprights, at least the fronts, appear to be Ti fabrications now. Some teams are still using steel uprights in the back. Jag were still using steel at the beginning of this season. Gary Anderson:

"The steel is there for stiffness. You don't want the rear upright moving around too much because you have no control over it. The front upright moving around is not too much of a drama because it is moving anyway, since the driver has a steering wheel. On top of that, the tyre camber stiffness is not so high so you can afford to allow a little movement at the front. At the rear, you don't want that."

As for gearbox cases, it appears that most teams are using Mg alloy for those. Mac, Wiliams, Jordan, Benetton, Jag and Sauber specify that they do. Ferrari uses a Ti fabrication, and Minardi use a Ti casting. BAR specifies their's is Al alloy. Experiments with CF cases by Stewart and Arrows have, predictably IMO, been abandoned.

[Yelnats]

Magnesium got a very bad name in the fifties when the Mercedes LeMans car exploded into the crowd killing over 70 people. It was said that the Magnesium was imposible to extinquish with the fire equipment of the era. I believe much of the Magnesium was used in body panels where it was more exposed to combustion. This is all second hand as even I was too young to be following that sport back then!

Post # 972 Excuse my increased output, I'm headed for the thousand post honor!

[desmo]

Mg is a fire hazard only in thin sections- such as body panels. Any boy who didn't experiment with thin Mg ribbon or shavings lacked for curiosity. Once lit though, wow! Ti exhibits similar burning characteristics. Any fire hot enough to ignite a Mg or Ti gearbox case or block would be so hot anyway it wouldn't matter.

[Ray Bell]

The reports on the burning Levegh Mercedes used the word 'elektron.' Is this merely a German word for magnesium, or is it an alternative name?

[Halfwitt]

Elektron is a trade name for some Magnesium alloys. When I looked at Mg for a work project a few years back, all the information was supplied by a company called Magnesium Elecktron.

[Paolo]

Elektron is an alloy made of magnesium and (I'm not sure) aluminium. It was used a lot during WWII , at least by Regia Aeronautica , because of its stiffness-weight ratio, better than standard duraluminium, although it was not flammable like magnesium. It was abandoned because of its extreme vulnerability to corrosion.

[Richard Border]

VW used magnesium in the beetle's blocks in the '60s. We cut a VW block up so we could melt it down in metalshop for castings. We never got to pour it though, but boy did the furnace look cool with the white balls of fire shooting out of it.

German planes of WWII also used magnesium, I read that they burned much brighter at night than British planes.

Desmo may be onto something with the steel blocks, one of the two big makers,(I forget which Wright or PW), of American radial engines in WWII used steel rather than alumium for crankcases and they where no heavier than the other guys.

I don't think corrosion is too much of a consideration in F1, they're kept super clean and rebuilt all the time.

[Nathan]

I thought all magnesium had a large percentage of Aluminum in it???

;Lets not forget all F1 wheels are made from the stuff as well.

[david_martin]

Originally posted by Nathan
I thought all magnesium had a large percentage of Aluminum in it???

Nope. Most of the cast and wrought Mg alloys in common use in aerospace and automotive applications are at leat 90% Mg.

[Paolo]

About Elektron :
I just bought the great Tony Rudd's autobiography "It was fun !" and learned that BRM bodies in the 50s were made out of Elektron.

[mp4]

Porsche used magnesium in its engine blocks for the 911 motors in the early '70's. If I'm correct, they changed it to aluminum once the 3.0L variants were introduced.
It may have been due to manufacturing concerns - i.e. ease of machining etc.
The F1 cars of the mid '70's had magnesium centres in their wheels. I know this because I have a wheel from a 1976 Lotus in my office. You can scratch off particles and drop them in an open flame. You get cool white pops and sparks.
I never said I was the smartest person...

[DEVO]

Originally posted by desmo
Mg is a fire hazard only in thin sections- such as body panels. Any boy who didn't experiment with thin Mg ribbon or shavings lacked for curiosity. Once lit though, wow! Ti exhibits similar burning characteristics. Any fire hot enough to ignite a Mg or Ti gearbox case or block would be so hot anyway it wouldn't matter.

I think this was one of the reason that Leonard Skynard's plane crashed, the plane (I think WW2 vintage plane) was made in both Aluminum and Magnesium versions... they happened to own the Magnesium version.

[Mark Beckman]

Audi for their group 'B' Rally cars went to aluminium and ended up with so much strenthening added to it, it ended up heavier than the iron block.

Australia's own Holden "red" 6 cylinder motor was reconised as the lightest large (3.3 litre) mass production 6 cylinder in the world and is cast iron block AND head ! (defunct now).

Magnesium engine side covers have been very common on Japanese motorcycles since the 60's, but many now use plastic for the same purpose now.

To my knowlege all ZF F1 gearboxes were Magnesium, I recently picked up an empty casing which my mate was to weld and its weird when you pick it up and your brain says it should be heavier !

[12.9:1]

.

Interview with Mario Illien

? Is there any scope to make either the block or heads from Magnesium rather than aluminium ?

"Magnesium is definitely not my material !"


from Racetech mag 2001


.

[lucid_one]

http://www.simson.ne...s/cubefire.html

[Evo One]

Originally posted by lucid_one
http://www.simson.ne...s/cubefire.html

About as entertaining as watching paint dry

[12.9:1]

HOT Off the presses or maybe just warm, any way in the October Racecar engineering, an anonyms "insider" claims that Ferraris engine "is using a lot of investment cast Magnesium for internals and future developments include making structural cam covers from the same material possibly with wall thicknesses as low as 2mm"

So what would 'a lot of internals' be?

[Renault4ever]

I wouldn't mind betting that the new engine that Honda introduced a few races ago has a magnesium or magnesium alloy block.

Why do I reckon that?

Well, when they blowup (which happens a lot - 5 blown engines over the weekend at Spa) they seem to burn like no other Formula1 engine I've seen in recent times. Fisi's blowup in the race at Spa was a spectacular example, Villenueve's (or was it Panis?) blowup at the end of the main strait in the Austrian GP was another graphic example.

Magnesium is well known for it's tendency to burn like crazy if it gets hot enough.

[MRC]

Renault4ever, while I share your sentiments that Honda is currently not doing so well, I don't think they are running mag blocks. Even if they were, just because there is a fire does not mean that the engine block is neccesarily going to catch fire. If any magnesium caught fire and burned for any signifigant amount of time, you would know about it. Everything else remotely flammable close to the mag would be on fire too. It would most likely continue to burn too, until someone came out with a metals fire extinguisher, if they could even put it out. I don't see any of the track guys ever carrying one. They are usually yellow.

Also, I'd be willing to bet that all of the oil pump housings and most likely the water pumps on some cars are already made out of magnesium.

[desmo]

12.9:1: in the October Racecar engineering, an anonyms "insider" claims that Ferraris engine "is using a lot of investment cast Magnesium for internals and future developments include making structural cam covers from the same material possibly with wall thicknesses as low as 2mm"

I reckon that any engine internals that handle significant structural loads would be made of a Mg alloy matrix MMC rather than a homogeneous alloy. Havent structural Mg alloy cam covers been around nearly forever? I believe the Cossie DFV had precisely those. Like MRC I can't really think of many potential applications for conventional Mg alloy parts outside ancillary housings or cam covers in F1 engines. Maybe pistons (Mg pistons actually were used in an Indy 500 winner back in the '30s I believe), but again MMC sounds more probable than straight alloy.

[MN]

This one had air-cooled magnesium engine. (a failure though)
http://www.honda.co..../photo/170.jpeg

[Toby Padfield]

The potential for increased magnesium usage is abundant, depending on the exact application. As has already been mentioned, items like gearboxes, cam covers, and pump housings are already manufactured as magnesium castings. New applications like pistons are possible, although details like the relatively high coefficient of thermal expansion would need to be worked out. Desmo's idea of a composite version would certainly address that. Other details like strength at elevated temperature and wear resistance can be worked out by using suitable alloys (like the more recently developed WE43 and WE54 from Magnesium Elektron) and appropriate coatings.

[Cory Padfield]

I think one stumbling block here is a supplier of magnesium matrix composites. While I know of 10 university/corporate groups doing research on these, I am not familiar with one manufacturer. For aluminium matrix composites, I don't believe there is more than 5 companies actually manufacturing components. So, I believe any developments in the next 2-3 years are not likely to use magnesium composites.

[desmo]

Elektron's website says that WE54 pistons have been "run in" F1 engines. That might mean nothing more than tried in single cylinder research engines to having been run in races I suppose.

Significant gains in tribological properties seem possible via laser cladding metals and ceramics onto Mg alloy substrates (see here)

Another encouraging approach is Rapidly Solidified Powder Metallurgy (RS P/M) formed alloys (see here.) Some pretty impressive specific properties here.

[12.9:1]

desmo;

As for "run in" F1,- Racecar Engineering, in volume 3 No 6, page 28 - "Benetton's Big-Bore"
Referring to Michael Schumacher's, Zetec-R, Championship Cosworth engine, Matter-o-factly states,
"piston weight increase has been mitigated by changing to forged magnesium alloy - obviously one of ultra-high strenght."

Something certainly was lost wen the number TEN was sanctified, I remember cheering for an underdog engine ! ( true definition of a Gear Head ) and against a multitude of pistons it pulled through

[desmo]

I posted this here in May of last year:

I found this on Ford Racing's website:

"The next year[1994], Benetton received the latest engine creation from Ford and Cosworth, the Zetec R V8. This one incorporated all the latest technology, including the application of ceramics to the cylinder head, hollow titanium valves, titanium connecting rods and magnesium alloy pistons."

Now I know back in pre WWII days Mg alloy pistons were pretty normal stuff in racing engines, but is anyone aware of any other instances of Mg pistons in more modern F1 applications? And why is the material so feared by most engineers for structural applications other than wheels? Mario Ilien in his recent Racetech interview basically said he wanted nothing to do wih Mg.

This in a thread I started on Mg pistons And forgotten!

[12.9:1]

And a fine thread it was!
I dont discount the possibility of dissinformation or at least exaggeration.
Here from an interview a few years later (97) with Nick Hayes then Cosworth's F1 Director.

' It would appear that Cosworth still empoys alumimium alloy but magnesium, MMC and aluminium/beryllium are all possible alternatives for the piston."I don't think anyone has ever used carbon and it is now illegal. With magnesium, if you are not careful you have something which is not as strong so you make it thicker and therefore heavier. You look at all the light alloys. There is more military aerospce technology on the market now. But there is a lot of over selling of some of these materials."

Sounds to me as - they really did try mag pistons, but not for long.