47 replies to this topic

[Viktor]

Jump Start

I read on a thread here that someone sad that because Mika stoped the car after his jump start he shuld not have resived a penelty, but is this right? If a driver makes a jump start and stops and then restarts before the green light he is still far closer to the car infront of him and he get a advantige of this. Mika moved his car 3 meters and then stoped (this was not seen on the world feed but on Digital we had a clear shot from the side of the track).
I think that if a driver jump starts than he must get a 10-sec penelty for it, even if he did not gain any positions.

/Viktor

[Clatter]

I agree, if the driver moves before the lights change even if he then stops he should still be penalised. His movement could trigger other drivers to move as well.

The problem is the rule like many others are a bit woolly, and there have been occasions when drivers have got away with this. MS was one such a few seasons ago.

[Oho]

Ave !!!

Michael Schumcaher got away with it at Indianapolis.
Read Hortons reflections on the race. Mika himself got away at Spa last year.

- Oho -[p][Edited by Oho on 10-22-2000]

[Ross Stonefeld]

Jump start is when you are moving when the lights go out. If you creep forward because of clutch drag or wahtever, and then stop, that shouldnt be a penalty

I couldnt detect any movement by Mika, but I guess the sensors picked up. My question is, how come DC didnt get nailed fro Austria? THAT was a jumped start

Ross Stonefeld
Aztec International

[Oho]

Ave !!!

Mika movbed before the start but came to a complete halt before the start propper, at least thats what he says and most live commentary on the net says. I dont know, perhaps his car was no longer entirtely in its grid box when the lights went out. It would be nice to get another view on the start to see how much his car jerked. From the fornt view it didn't seem that much and the penalty sounded harsh in light of similar incidents going unspunished quite recently.

- Oho -

[A3]

I think the that the penalty would not have been given if he moved about 50cm and came to a stop again. But now he moved at least 2 meters.

[daveturbo]

The electronic system is certainly better than someone trying to observe and decide. If there's one thing that this BB (and any others) is likely to actually agree on, it's that we don't trust the FIA to make the right decision, at the right time, with the right penalty.

I assumed that the sensor simply decided if every cars sensor was in it's correct area both before and at the time the lights go out. If the computer says that a car did or did not jump the start, I'll go with that.

But if the box says a penalty needs serving, it shouldn't need a commitee to decide it. Instant penalty.

[Mila]

Ross Stonefeld, for DC in Austria, having reviewed the start at (my VCR's) super slo-mo, I came to the conclusion that DC was on the move JUST as the light began to fade. nevertheless, a lot of posters were equally convinced that he did indeed jump the start; after all, it is clear that he was on the move before any of the cars around him. so, this brings up the question if he actually guessed it right, and if so, is there--as there is in track and field events--a time lapse in the sensors to factor in human reaction time.

[A3]

These people can review a start from far more angles than everybody else can. Computer says jump start by car no.1 so they're going to check it out. Like Viktor said, bernie TV had a very nice shot from the side. Hakkinen moved at least 2 meters and Schumacher was standing still.

[baddog]

as said above its all in the amount moved. if someoone moves a few centimetres but stops still in their box then starts normally thats going to get let off, if they move metres lioke mika did they are going to get called up for it. inevitable and correct

and MS didnt jump the start in any remotely significant way at all in indy.

Shaun

[Chris G.]

After multiple replay viewings, Mika clearly rolls forward and then stops. I could not see MS doing anything even close.

I hope this is just the start of a new zero-tolerance policy on the part of the stewards.

[kurt]

I watched DC's start in Austria digitaly and he started moving when 3 of the 5 red lights were out. There were still 2 lights on . At this point we are splitting hairs. So do we call this a jumpstart or a good guess for an excellent start.

[desmo]

[SeeingRed]

Well, I guess if Mika was out of his box when the lights went out then he deserved the penalty. A similar thing happened last year at Spa I think but Mika didn't move far enough to warrant a penalty.

Some people have posted about DC's start at Austria. If he was moving when the lights went out then that's definately a jump start. You can't guess when the lights are going to go out. I think the computer's programmed to take into consideration some reaction time so I don't see why David wasn't penalised if indeed he was moving when the lights went out.

[orange]

Yes Mika did jump start , but he didnot gain any position adv due to the jump start.
The penalty is surely severe.
There should be another penalty called "Drive-Thru" Penalty , the driver need not stop for 10 sec in the pits.

[Bex37]

We all seem to be speculating about time delays and rules so I may as well add my theory.

I don't believe there would be any time delay applicable to allow for reactions. Lets face it, the lights go out one at a time and the driver is easily able to predict when the last light will go out.

There must be a line which the car cannot cross before the lights go out. Presumably, if you are well behind this line and you inch forward before the lights go out, you have not jumped the start.

Certainly, if you cross the aforementioned line before the lights went out, it would not matter whether you are moving or stopped; you must have jumped the start. If they allowed you to cross the line as long as you are stationary when the lights went out, everyone would be trying to creep forward to gain an advantage. This is not the spirit of a start !!

So that leaves one question, what if you are moving at the time the lights go out, but you have not crossed the line that defines a jumped start? Surely this must be a jumped start as well !!! If this were not a jumped start, the drivers would be purposely staying 4 or 5 metres behind their grid position box so that when the lights go out, they have already moved the 4 or 5 metres and effectively get a rolling start.

Maybe the latter is when the judges visual decision comes into play. Or maybe you have TWO lines that you have to be within prior to the commencement of the start procedure with the lights. If the lines were only 0.5 metre apart, this would effectively mean that the driver could only roll a short distance and this distance would depend on how far into the pit box the driver was originally positioned.

All very interesting stuff. Anyone got a copy of the FIA F1 Rulebook?

[Ray Bell]

On the other hand, having accepted the jumped start, how much better would Mika's race have been if he had raced in for the stop go on that pace car lap?

[baddog]

bex, I think your question can be answered fairly simply.

if the driver rolls but doesnt cross the 'line' (I suspect rather than a line its an imaginary 'insignificant amount') but then stops so that he isnt moving when the lights go out, ie he makes a true standing start, he is okay

if he rolls that small acceptable amount, but does not stop the car and make a true standing start, that is a jumpstart and a penalty is applied

if he rolls far enough that an advantage is implied (like mika above.. nice photo btw) then whether he stops or not the jumpstart is still applied.

Shaun

[Bex37]

Originally posted by baddog
bex, I think your question can be answered fairly simply.

if ..................... an imaginary 'insignificant amount' ......................., he is okay

if .................. small acceptable amount, but does not stop the car and make a true standing start, ................... penalty is applied

if ................. far enough that an advantage is implied .............................. jumpstart is still applied.

Words like "imaginary insignificant amount", "small acceptable amount", "does not stop the car and make a true standing start", "far enough that an advantage is implied" are all subjective and completely unenforcable. An unenforcable rule is a great way of attracting the lawyers. For a rule book, you must replace them with, for example; 1 metre, 5 km/hr, etc. It has to be something definite and measureable.

Whatever the rule, it must be enforcable and it must be enforced consistantly. I can't see any way in which your proposed rules could be enforced consistantly.

[Drifter]

He moved, gained what, a metre and a half to 2 metres before the lights went out and got a 10 second stop and go penalty. In a sport measured in 1000ths of a second I don't think there should be much room for interpretation.

[baddog]

bex I wasnt atempting to be the actual lawyer writing the real version of those rules (which arent proposed rules, merely an explanation of how things are currently decided).

what it comes down to in simplest possible and unambiguous terms is this.

you may not jump the start at all. if you do so the stewards of the race have the option to overlook your transgression if they feel it was both accidental and insignificant.

I dont WANT my sport tied up in a web of rigid rules. you cant write what really matters about F1 down in lawyerspeak.

Shaun

[Antti]

Thank God this did not decide the championship.

Antti

[Oho]

Ave !!

If the photo is taken after the car rolled but when the lights were still on the penalty call was certainly the right one. I wonder were I could get a LINUX viewable video of the start.

- Oho -

[Viktor]

desmo, he moved much more then on the picture, that picture was taken before he had stoped.

/Viktor

[Clatter]

One of the problems that most agree with here, is that a jump start has to be declared by the stewards and they can judge it either way, so that one race a move results ina penalty and in the next race it doesnt. This will always lead to cries of a foul depending on who is penalised/not penalised.

Once the starting sequence begins ie first red light goes on, then any movement of the car should be considered a jump start and a penalty incurred. There maybe a few occasions when a clutch drags, but thats up to the teams to ensure it doesnt happen.

This way no one can argue with the penalty and it is fair to everyone.

[Holy Driver]

They showed it pretty well on Austrian TV in the evening. The lights were red unusually long. BOTH of the cars moved during the red - first MS, then (maybe irritated by MS)Mika. Both stopped and started again when the lights went green. But while MS had moved only a little bit and didn´t cross the line (thus the sensors didn´t notice it), Mika exceeded it by at least one metre.

So I´d draw one conclusion and one question:
1) The penalty to Mika was (maybe hard, but) justified
2) Should MS have been penalized, too? He didn´t cross the line, sure, but is it allowed to move when the lights are red ?? (the question is clearly related to the posts of Baddog and Bex37)

[man from martinlaakso]

I assume, that MH moved his car about 1.5 - 2 meters ahead, before stopping it and before all the lights were out, so it was a clear stop and go penalty. If Mika would not have been penalized, that would have been a bad precedent. The drivers must have rules, and those rules should be used to every drivers - also to MS and MH.

[P1 Senna]

It is absolutely AMAZING to me that 2 McLaren drivers execute jump starts from P2 in 2 of the last 3 races of the season. What is the reason? Pressure, lack of focus, mechanical?? Maybe all of that. Or maybe this: they have so much concern over the SWERVE-CHOP that is sure to come from P1 that they lose concentration on the lights and blow the start.

If that's the case then Schumacher's swerve starts have served him and Ferrari well. True intimidation!!

P1 and P2 ought to be involved in a drag race to the first corner, not in zigging and zagging from one side of the track to other to cut off the opposition. Yes, further back in the field everyone will be going every which way to find a clear line, but the front row should engage a straight line race to the first corner. The starting tactics of the Swervin German are despicable, and should be banned before someone is killed.

With that said, congratulations to Ferrari and the tifosi for a long overdue double title.

[T0NT0]

in the Motogp series with the bikes the rules are a little bit different. The false start is measured by the rear wheel. so you can be moving before the lights go off, but your rear wheel can't cross the white line before the lights go off. so sometimes a rider guesses and starts before the lights go green hoping they will turn green before his rear tire crosses the white line.

this system of course couldnt work for the cars, but someone mentioned instead of a 10 s/g they have to drive thru the pits which would be less damaging.

[baddog]

p1 senna, thats an amazing piece of 'spin'. mika and davids stupid mistakes are really michaels fault.. I should have thought of that myself. why dont we just ban michael for everyone elses mistakes and be done with it. I mean REALLY....

Shaun

[P1 Senna]

Originally posted by baddog
p1 senna, thats an amazing piece of 'spin'. mika and davids stupid mistakes are really michaels fault.. I should have thought of that myself. why dont we just ban michael for everyone elses mistakes and be done with it. I mean REALLY....

Shaun

Shaun - it's not spin, and I'm sorry if you cannot grasp the possibility that MSchu's starting tactics have maybe intimidated his opponents into making race-ending mistakes. That actually is a compliment to Schumacher - I just think that his chop moves are grossly overdone and may some day result in an accident of catastrophic proportions.

[tifosi]

P1 Senna,

I offer an even better solution to Mika and David in order to avoid the 'swervin german'. QUALIFY IN FRONT OF HIM. Really very simple, if they can't do that then they have to deal with what the rules allow. Do not blame Schumacher for playing the game in any way that are allowed by the rules. EVERY driver has employed the swerve, chop, or whatever colorful name you want to come up with. The SINGLE, BEST way to avoid it is to qualify in front.
If you can point me to a SINGLE case of when Schumacher's swerve from P1 have caused a serioes incident, then maybe I'll join you in you blind hatred of the "Swervin German". Remember only P1, since even you stated that swerving and chopping are okay from P3 through P22.

[Gruff]

If a driver is not skilled enough (and this is not an insult to their ability - more a practical statement that is true to just about all drivers - MS and MH included), or the car is not stable enough, to be able to engage a gear WITHOUT rolling forward, then it is surely up to the driver to stop BEFORE his mark on the grid so that any rolling can be brought to a stop WITHOUT exceeding his box.

Mika, like all drivers always do, stopped right on his mark. Consequently, any movement forward beyond that line should provoke a penalty.

An analogy is with DC's wing at Brazil. The wing was 8mm out from the reference plane not 3mm. (or whatever the figures were, the principle still holds.) The car should be designed to the 0mm limit so that in the case of a problem, there is a 5mm tolerence zone.

Similarly, drivers should use their judgement to stop BEFORE their mark "so that in the case of a problem, there is a [x cm] tolerence zone" in which he can bring the car to a standstill WITHOUT leaving his box and WITHOUT moving at the start.

I have no sympathy for those who push the rules beyond their null-points and to the tolerences. Tolerences mark the discretion of the judges NOT the limits of the rules.

[baddog]

Originally posted by P1 Senna

Originally posted by baddog
p1 senna, thats an amazing piece of 'spin'. mika and davids stupid mistakes are really michaels fault.. I should have thought of that myself. why dont we just ban michael for everyone elses mistakes and be done with it. I mean REALLY....

Shaun

Shaun - it's not spin, and I'm sorry if you cannot grasp the possibility that MSchu's starting tactics have maybe intimidated his opponents into making race-ending mistakes. That actually is a compliment to Schumacher - I just think that his chop moves are grossly overdone and may some day result in an accident of catastrophic proportions.

of course its spin, its a classic example of exactly what spin means, which is to take something negative about one person and find a way, using any means available, to try and make it appear either positive about them or negative about their adversary. you tried to make mika and davids jumpstarts into a criticism of schumacher. so its spin and you did it, in exactly the way the nastier brand of political spindoctor will try and rubbihs their guys opponents to distract attention from his failings.

The fact that you dont like schumachers start chops is perfectly reasonable, i dont agree but Im not even commenting on that.. except that it has nothing to do with mikas starts which is the subject of this discussion. Every F1 driver makes the best starts they possibly can, to suggest that Mika and David arent normally trying everything they can to get a good start is incredibly insulting to them.

Shaun

[A3]

http://formula1.tele...ang/sepang1.mpg
Video clip from the start. Not the best, but the only one I could find.

[mtl'78]

Didn't Mansell start a race in reverse after trying to correct a clutch problem on the grid?

[Top Fuel F1]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bex37
[B]We all seem to be speculating about time delays and rules so I may as well add my theory.

I don't believe there would be any time delay applicable to allow for reactions. Lets face it, the lights go out one at a time and the driver is easily able to predict when the last light will go out.

Bex37:

F1 Start Light System:
1. Once the cars are in place the auto pre-programmed start proceedure is activated.
2.Five red lights turn on one after another at one sec. intervals until all 5 red lights are lit.
3.The actual start signal is when all 5 red lights turn off simultaneously. This happens between .2 sec. and 3 sec. after the fifth red light had lit. This lapse in time is determined by the start official when he programs the system prior to the race and therefore the duration between the fifth red light lighting and all red lights turning off simultaneously can be different at any given race. This system is obviously designed to defeat predictability.

Best Regards;

[Andrew2001]

Because Schuamcher made such a hash of his start, it made it look like Mika had an advantage. HE HAD NO ADVANTAGE, HIS CAR MOVED TO START THE RACE THE SAME TIME AS THE REST OF THE FIELD.
THE FIA ARE THE MOST BIAS SON OF A ****ing BITCHES THAT EXIST. FIA = FERRARI INTERNATIONAL AUTOSPORTCOUNCIL

[Bex37]

Originally posted by Andrew2001
Because Schuamcher made such a hash of his start, it made it look like Mika had an advantage. HE HAD NO ADVANTAGE, HIS CAR MOVED TO START THE RACE THE SAME TIME AS THE REST OF THE FIELD.

So let me get this straight. Mika was some 1 metre in front of the grid position that he was supposed to be in as the lights went out. You consider this to be "no advantage" if his car is stopped at the time. Is that correct?

[Bex37]

Right you are, Top Fuel. Apologies for the error.

I still stand by my assertion that there would be no pre-programmed allowance for driver reaction time in any jump start sensors. If you can guess when the lights will go out to within a tenth of a second, you deserve to make a blinding start!!!! Of course, the risk is a ten second penalty; more than enough deterrent for would be "guessers".

[baddog]

andrew, unfortunately for those with huge chips on their sloped shoulders, the rules state that the car must start after the lights go off, but also that the car must start from within its grid position. mika accidentally failed to do so, and Im sure on viewing the video of his start at his teams debrief he will certainly accept his correct penalty gracefully. you shoudl do the same

oh and dont swear here

Shaun

[pRy]

Originally posted by orange
Yes Mika did jump start , but he didnot gain any position adv due to the jump start.
The penalty is surely severe.
There should be another penalty called "Drive-Thru" Penalty , the driver need not stop for 10 sec in the pits.

Which race was you watching, because he went from 2nd to 1st before the first corner.

[Oho]

Ave !!

Pry, what makes you believe that the jump start gained him the position. The distance he stole was hardly decisive. If he gained any real advantage it came from excellent feel for the clutch, but then again Michael jerked his car enough to get that advantage also.

- Oho -

[baddog]

oho while his move to 1st wasnt based on his error, the point is that the stewards MUST assume that such a large jump at the start represents an advantage, whether the driver capitalises on the advantage or not. starting 1-2 metres ahead of your assigned grid slot is a pretty definitive rule breach, for which a 10 second stop go seems pretty fair. and yes I WOULD say the same if michael jumpstarted.

Shaun

[Alapan]

A jump start is a jump start. MH was cleraly in front of the acceptable position and he should get the jump start. I just think that the Stewards should be consistent all the time and this will make it fair fo all.

[baddog]

has anyone here ever had reason to actually disagree with a jumpstart call.. ie has someone been let off wen you think they should have been given a jumpstart or vice versa?

Shaun

[Oho]

Ave !!!

Baddog, I did not question the call, I merely questioned the assesment that he gained the position because of his jump start. I doubt he did and observed that if he did gain any real advantage I believe such advantage came from better feel of the clutch, which I believe to be worth a lot more than a meter at the start. Just observe how often Mika beat Michael to the first corner and the secret most probably lies somewher in the clutch. I hate the very notion of non benefit clause as such clause is always applicable, whether postion was gained or lost.

- Oho -

[Raelene]

my husband actually said that Mika jumped the start, even before Martin Brundle picked it up.... now, if a guy who wears glasses can notice that on the tv.... surely the sensors would pick it up and a penalty MUST be served...