39 replies to this topic

[lustigson]

• We’ve seen Honda withdraw, in December 2008, and Brawn GP emerge from its ashes.
• There are 3 new teams for 2010, 2 of which are old-style racing teams: Campos and Manor.
• Engine supplier Cosworth returns with these 3 teams.
• Mercedes allegedly got permission to supply up to 4 teams, next season.
• BMW announced its withdrawal from F1 after 2009. Plus, there are constant rumours about Renault and Toyota wanting to call it quits.
• The likes of Prodrive, Lola and Epsilon Euskadi are willing to jump into the F1 pond, given the right circumstances.

Will we see a return to pre-manufacturers Grand Prix racing over the next few years, with teams run by men with petrol for blood, building their own cars, but buying engines from specialist companies or motor manufacturers?

[Calorus]

Let's live and dream, but the reality will probably disappoint.

[FlatOverCrest]

I posted the same thing in the BMW quit thread....

Prodrive Porsche has a nice ring to it!! Or Prodrive Aston Martin.....

Ferrari could branch their team off and simply call it "Scuderia" with Ferrari engines.

Long live teams like Brawn, McLaren, Williams, Red Bull, etc. They should specify a set engine format and to a set price ad each engine must be shipped to an FIA holding warehouse (Parc Ferme) if you will, where each engine goes on the FIA dyno, once it passes as legal it gets released to the purchasing team.

This way teams are created and run, buying engines off the shelf. I agree with the idea of manufacturers and FOTA, but "F1 Manufacturers" not "Car Manufacturers", as more and more motorcar companies are now being forced to abide by wider issues and problems and an F1 budget is hard to justify....

My prediction is that Toyota will be next, followed by Renault.

If the cr manufacturers simply have to supply engines, it may attract BMW back, or even Honda, purely as engine suppliers.

It makes the most sense and would probably give us some even closer racing....

[Calorus]

Ferrari is a privateer who branched out into road cars, remember that...

[Dudley]

Ferrari were a privateer who branched out into road cars but are now just a manufacturer like any other.

Fixed that for you.

There are 3 new teams for 2010, 2 of which are old-style racing teams: Campos and Manor.

I agree with the rest of your points, I'm interested though in why you don't consider USF1 to be an old style racing team.

Edited by Dudley, 29 July 2009 - 09:03.

[Calorus]

Fixed that for you.

Ta, I knew I'd missed something.

[ivanalesi]

Nah, wrong. Ferrari w/o racing will lose it's most valuable customers, those who have collections of Ferraris. They know it all too well, so no worries there ;) You know what happened with Ferrari in the early 90's, and when Schumacher came in terms of sales ;)
F1 will get out very strong out of this, the manufacturers developed fantastic facilities for their teams, and now people like Brawn and Sauber will continue from there:)

[Calorus]

Nah, wrong. Ferrari w/o racing will lose it's most valuable customers, those who have collections of Ferraris. They know it all too well, so no worries there ;) You know what happened with Ferrari in the early 90's, and when Schumacher came in terms of sales ;)
F1 will get out very strong out of this, the manufacturers developed fantastic facilities for their teams, and now people like Brawn and Sauber will continue from there:)

I don't think they'd pull out of F1, but even if they did they'd go top flight somewhere else. The biggest issue would be that the Le Mans regs at the moment are heavily geared towards oil burners. That's what keeps them in F1 beyond their urge to stay.

[lustigson]

I agree with the rest of your points, I'm interested though in why you don't consider USF1 to be an old style racing team.

Well, they're somewhat ambiguous: one could argue that they're a marketing exercise more or less like Red Bull are. They are, however, led by some genuine racing folks, from what I understand.

[schtix]

Hopefully we'll have lots of good racing teams with good reliable engines spending sensible budgets.

[estoril85]

Good riddance IMHO, the 'manufacturer' era has just been one giant black hole of money being thrown at it to win, lets get back to the real racers free the rules up a bit to allow some more innovation and everyone competing with sensible budgets

[taran]

Well, they're somewhat ambiguous: one could argue that they're a marketing exercise more or less like Red Bull are. They are, however, led by some genuine racing folks, from what I understand.

I think a better way of looking at it would be to say that those teams have pedigree. They started in junior/feeder categories where they proved their abilities over several seasons. Teams that are assembled just to enter F1 tend to have a very bad time there.....

Force/Haas/Lola had all the right names (including Ford) and sufficient money and couldn't get it right. Mastercard Lola was even worse...

It's like a producer trying to produce the blockbuster of the year without ever having produced a movie before....It could happen but the odds are stacked against it....Especially with highly experienced teams arrayed against you.

[gindan]

It always better to have privateers who's business it is to race rather than manufacturers. The privateer team-manufacturer engine scenario has always been the best solution. When the manufacturer leaves, the team just finds another engine and moves on. Look at Williams all these years. They had Cosworths then Hondas then back to Cosworth then Renault then Megachrome then BMW then Cosworth again then Toyota. The manufacturers came and went but the team continued.

[lustigson]

It always better to have privateers who's business it is to race rather than manufacturers. The privateer team-manufacturer engine scenario has always been the best solution. When the manufacturer leaves, the team just finds another engine and moves on. Look at Williams all these years. They had Cosworths then Hondas then Judd then Renault then Megachrome then BMW then Cosworth again then Toyota. The manufacturers came and went but the team continued.

Minor detail.

[Calorus]

Well, they're somewhat ambiguous: one could argue that they're a marketing exercise more or less like Red Bull are. They are, however, led by some genuine racing folks, from what I understand.

Adrian Newey is the most genuine racing folk there is.

[Alfisti]

THis 'black hole' argument is a bit daft. A lot of the cash spent involved hiring people, you know mechanics, fabricators, cleaners, designers, wind tunnel operators, IT nerds ........ it's not like it was a money thropwing contest.

[Calorus]

THis 'black hole' argument is a bit daft. A lot of the cash spent involved hiring people, you know mechanics, fabricators, cleaners, designers, wind tunnel operators, IT nerds ........ it's not like it was a money thropwing contest.

Until you try to work out how many you needed. Or whether you'd spent 10 months with a mis-calibrated wind tunnel...

[Red_Bull_Fan]

it would be nice to see alot of the old engine suppliers come back to supply some of the private team, firms such has mugen honda, peugeot, yamaha, ford, and lambourghini

[Calorus]

it would be nice to see alot of the old engine suppliers come back to supply some of the private team, firms such has mugen honda, peugeot, yamaha, ford, and lambourghini

Mugen had some issues with "Financial Irregularities" so I don't know where that leaves them.
Ford cannot currently afford to scratch their arses without the American taxpayer bankrolling it, so I reckon Obamarama will say "No you can't".
VW have already said they plain don't like the way F1 is, and I doubt even Spanky's departure will change that so I can't see Lambo either.
Peugeot - possibly assuming the engine price covers development.
Yamaha - less likely they seemed pretty indifferent when Tyrrell shuffled off.

In other words, whilst I would dearly love that list, the words Snowball and Hell spring to mind.

Edited by Calorus, 29 July 2009 - 15:44.

[OnyxF1]

it would be nice to see alot of the old engine suppliers come back to supply some of the private team, firms such has mugen honda, peugeot, yamaha, ford, and lambourghini

Why would they want to? What have they got to gain from the current engine formula? Besides, they couldn't join even if they wanted to. Engine homogolation prevents them from doing so. Maybe if F1 was production engine-based or something, they would give it a shot but I can't see it otherwise.

[Demo.]

It surprises me that no one has mentioned what FOTA are talking about.
the introduction of a third car on the grid for teams
see http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/77406
why does it surprise me and fill me with dismay?
It shows that FOTA are not intrested in widening the team base in F1 but in reality in closing it down.
The truth is out there you just need to look for it.
If Fota get their way what is the logical outcome ...
after all the single biggest cost involved with F1 is the developing of the first car once you have your first car complete with all the development costs and other costs such as molds etc the next few cars are far cheaper to make.
So they keep costs too high for most teams and then fill the grid with more and more cars from fewer teams.
in the end we end up with maybe just two teams with 10 cars each and all with the blessing of FOTA.

[DEVO]

Another way to look at this is that without all the money F1 has made with the manufactures in it, the safety in F1 wouldn't be where it is now, and Massa might not be here. So it's not all bad what they did.

[BMW_F1]

I actually expected the Helmets to protect more .. There is probably material out there today that would have left Massa without a single scar..

[FlatOverCrest]

I actually expected the Helmets to protect more .. There is probably material out there today that would have left Massa without a single scar..

Er....wrong thread per chance?

[Red_Bull_Fan]

it will be to much like indycar if they decide to run with 3 cars in a team

[lustigson]

I'll posted this in the thread "The fall and rise of the 'Garagistes'", too.

Of the 13 teams for 2010 only Ferrari, McLaren (Mercedes) and Renault can be considered factory teams, possibly joined by a Mercedes-owned Brawn team. That leaves 10 (9) independent teams on the grid: Red Bull, Williams, Force India, Toro Rosso, Campos, Manor/Virgin, Team US F1, Lotus, and Sauber (and possibly Brawn, too).

This is the highest number since 1993, when there were 8 (McLaren-Ford (Benetton being the factory-supported outfit), Ligier-Renault, Lotus-Ford, Sauber-Ilmor, Minardi-Ford, Footwork-Mugen, Larrousse-Lamborghini, and Jordan-Hart).

[undersquare]

I'd like to see Mercedes out of team ownership too, and Proton, and an end to the Ferrari bonus. Then the racers can compete, fairly, with sensible budgets that teams have to earn with sponsorship.

Then the regs could be opened up to allow more innovation.

[lustigson]

With Daimler's take-over of Brawn GP, I have to make a small correction:

Of the 13 teams for 2010 only Ferrari, McLaren Mercedes and Renault can be considered factory teams, possibly joined by plus a partly Mercedes-owned Brawn McLaren team that will buy back Mercedes' 40% share before the end of 2012.

One could consider McLaren having been relegated to a mere Mercedes customer role, with the new factory Mercedes Grand Prix (née Brawn) team.

[Sakae]

• We've seen Honda withdraw, in December 2008, and Brawn GP emerge from its ashes.
• There are 3 new teams for 2010, 2 of which are old-style racing teams: Campos and Manor.
• Engine supplier Cosworth returns with these 3 teams.
• Mercedes allegedly got permission to supply up to 4 teams, next season.
• BMW announced its withdrawal from F1 after 2009. Plus, there are constant rumours about Renault and Toyota wanting to call it quits.
• The likes of Prodrive, Lola and Epsilon Euskadi are willing to jump into the F1 pond, given the right circumstances.

Will we see a return to pre-manufacturers Grand Prix racing over the next few years, with teams run by men with petrol for blood, building their own cars, but buying engines from specialist companies or motor manufacturers?

Since manufacturers (like Renault and Mercedes) were at the cradle of GP racing prior Mr. BE got involved, I think your wish is slightly misplaced.

[lustigson]

Since manufacturers (like Renault and Mercedes) were at the cradle of GP racing prior Mr. BE got involved, I think your wish is slightly misplaced.

Hence my "pre-manufacturer F1" statement.

But you are right about Renault's and Mercedes-Benz's involvement in Grand Prix racing from the very beginning, of course, and, together with Ferrari, they remain the 3 manufacturer teams in F1 in 2010 (bar a Renault withdrawal).

[pgj]

There must be the prospect of at least one of the departed manufacturers returning to F1. With Renault on the verge of following Honda, BMW and Toyota, it is the business model that has failed. Manufacturers have been bitten by F1's spending war. If they can regain an F1 presence at a fraction of previous costs and it fits in with a marketing strategy, they will. There is nothing to prevent one of our departed manufacturers returning in a low cost partnership based on the model of the 1980's. Costs could be reduced further by one of them, or an new manufacturer to F1, badging an engine.

[lustigson]

There must be the prospect of at least one of the departed manufacturers returning to F1. With Renault on the verge of following Honda, BMW and Toyota, it is the business model that has failed. Manufacturers have been bitten by F1's spending war. If they can regain an F1 presence at a fraction of previous costs and it fits in with a marketing strategy, they will. There is nothing to prevent one of our departed manufacturers returning in a low cost partnership based on the model of the 1980's. Costs could be reduced further by one of them, or an new manufacturer to F1, badging an engine.

Exactly.

Cheapest way would be doing a deal to badge the Cosworth engines.

[Beatrix]

I see atleast Honda returning as an engine supplier, and if Renault goes too then them as well - BMW maybe in a decade or so, they have their play in F1, quit for a while, then return again, the only one I can't really see coming back is Toyota.

[lustigson]

I see atleast Honda returning as an engine supplier...

It seems that you were right.

[Jimisgod]

He was right about Renault becoming primarily an engine supplier, rather than a team, as well.

[lustigson]

He was right about Renault becoming primarily an engine supplier, rather than a team, as well.

Indeed!

[Beatrix]

He was right about Renault becoming primarily an engine supplier, rather than a team, as well.

He?? I now think Toyota will come back to not miss the boat. Preferably with Williams!

Edited by Beatrix, 17 May 2013 - 09:26.

[7MGTEsup]

He?? I now think Toyota will come back to not miss the boat. Preferably with Williams!

I take it your of the female gender then? I think most people just assume on a motorsport related forum the everyone is male. Maybe they should put your gender under your screen name so people don't get offended by being assumed a male?

But on topic that was a pretty good call.

[RedBaron]

He?? I now think Toyota will come back to not miss the boat. Preferably with Williams!

I take it your of the female gender then? I think most people just assume on a motorsport related forum the everyone is male. Maybe they should put your gender under your screen name so people don't get offended by being assumed a male?

Beatrix is a female name. Not that that always counts when it comes to usernames.

[Beatrix]

Not offended at all, just thought the name gave me away