234 replies to this topic

[pacwest]

Second in the points. First win. Button off the peak. McLaren resurging. Vettel the spoiler. "Webber the elder" is the dark horse?

First off I never would have predicted this. I'm a Webber supporter by and large and always wanted him to have his time in the limelight. I'm ALMOST on the bandwagon here for cheering him on for WDC. Vettel may have the edge on him speed wise but Mark has some good race craft. Mark needs to keep the nose clean on starts though.

Secondly, I now think he'll be there at the end but Lewis and Sebastian will take critical points from him. On the back 9, do you see Red Bull keeping up the pace enough to counter Buttons stellar first half? Will we see Vettel and Webbo fight to the last lap of the year? Or will Brawn save the understeer into the kitty litter?

[Victor_RO]

He's trying to mimic Alan Jones, so he'll win a few more races this year but the WDC only in 2010.

[Alfisti]

Since Spain he has more WDC points than anybody but I still think Button is near impossible to catch.

[pacwest]

2 wins, 2 DNFs and he leads. Impossible? Remember Kimi Räikkönen?

[JPW]

Can I say that I hope so?

Edited by JPW, 05 August 2009 - 20:29.

[Madras]

He'd have more points if he hadnt broken his leg and shoulder in the winter.

Edited by Madras, 05 August 2009 - 20:43.

[Stoobs]

With more teams stepping up to the plate, it can only help Button's campaign as anyone outside of Brawn or RBR is only going to make it harder for either Webber or Vettel to close the gap by diluting the available points.

Of course, if Brawn can sort out their issues with the chassis it might only take another one or two wins out of reach with the added competition?

[chrisj]

I am ready to jump on the bandwagon, but his third in Hungary disappointed me. It seemed like he was settling, where Vettel wouldn't have so much. Either Red Bull would be preferable to Button, but he is going to be very hard to overhaul.

[nordschleife]

From now on, the 2009 champion will have to be incident-free and still get the most out of his car. If one of the Red Bulls heads the other every time, Button's dead. If Button has one dnf he's dead. However if he maintains his consistent controlled performance and the Red Bulls remain prone to bumping into things he'll be fine. Assume multiple wins for Hamilton. At Valencia and Singapore assume there will be wall-banging that can indirectly involve any of the title contenders. Rain will almost certainly play a part at Spa, Suzuka and Interlagos. If the rain is intermittent then there's an opportunity for talent to shine but also for dumb luck as well. If a Ferrari can slow down Button now and then he's got a problem.
I love the smell of tension in the fall.

For your consideration, in this current context:

Lewis Hamilton is Scott Stoddard
Jenson Button is Pete Aron
Sebastian Vettel is Nino Barlini
Mark Webber is Jean-Pierre Sarti

[pRy]

This little inter team battle may actually be what hands Button the title. Webber and Vettel will now go to the wire taking points off each other, while I suspect Brawn will very soon decide to back Button 100% if they're not already doing so.

[undersquare]

19.5 points behind, call that 20 with all JB's wins. 7 races to go, 3 points per race would do it. Very possible. Especially with Macs and Ferraris around to take points off Jense, if Brawn lose performance backtracking their development to shake off their tyre use problems. Webbo must be getting stronger race by race, it would be an incredible story after the crash. Can he keep beating Vettel? A good chance I think.

[Madras]

This little inter team battle may actually be what hands Button the title. Webber and Vettel will now go to the wire taking points off each other, while I suspect Brawn will very soon decide to back Button 100% if they're not already doing so.

The problem Brawn has is will they be able to score many more points? Red Bull, McLaren and Ferarri look like they may be faster than Brawn now. There's also Williams who're doing well, and Toyota could improve, they have a huge budget. Button isnt that safe really.

[potmotr]

Here's hoping.

Mark Webber winning the WDC would be as massive as Australia winning the America's Cup in 1983.

[Hippo]

Well, right now he is 2nd in WDC. He has a shot at it. Nothing is decided yet. I'm crossing my fingers for him. Would be a great bounce back after Tasmania 08.

[pacwest]

Lewis Hamilton is Scott Stoddard
Jenson Button is Pete Aron
Sebastian Vettel is Nino Barlini
Mark Webber is Jean-Pierre Sarti

Simply awesome

[PassWind]

Hmm long way to go, still a lot of points to pick up, I think Jenson given the car is as or more consistent than Mark. I am not buying into the other team resurgence yet, every track and condition this year has brought one of the randoms forward on the grid or podium. The only consistent teams have been Red Bull and Brawn and in context probably Red Bull being the more consistent track to track with Brawn simply having a raw performance advantage early in the season.

Then there is Vettel, who is more than capable of taking it by the horns he just needs what the other two have a bit more consistency. Stealing points from each other isn't a big deal in Red Bull as long as Brawn's drop off in performance relative to a few teams around them remain consistent. Even in Hungary pace potential Red Bull still looked half a second faster than any other team on the grid. I can see why Horner is quite confident at this stage of the championship.

[PNSD]

0.5 / lap in Hungary?

Im sorry but RBR looked out of place race-day. They made bad calls in strategy and were no quicker than Ferrari or Mclaren on raceday. Maybe a couple tenths, but half a second? Not a chance.

[Alfisti]

I do think he has done better than people give him credit for. Vettel really has not had other drivers impact his DNF's excpet for a 'no one to blame' incident with Kimi last weekend. On the other hand Webber lost a lot of points thanks to Sutil's brain explosion and HK hitting Barichello and Barichello whacking Webber in melbourne. Add Malaysia which could have easily been 6 points rather than 1.5 and suddenly he's right there.

Now if's and but's don't get you anywhere but only Button has managed to wring more from his circumstances than Webber has. He MUSt fix Q3 though, to have any chance at all.

[PassWind]

0.5 / lap in Hungary?

Im sorry but RBR looked out of place race-day. They made bad calls in strategy and were no quicker than Ferrari or Mclaren on raceday. Maybe a couple tenths, but half a second? Not a chance.

Yes they did, but that is not what I am talking about, they are still clearly the fastest car going around. And I am still sticking with half a second, Lewis was the only guy who could get close to Webbers Q2 time and this is a track that the RB5 is supposed to suck at. In Race conditions he was able to run a lap .5 faster than all he had 9 of the fastest 20 laps, Lewis had 3 and Kimi had 3. That is not what makes a race, but again that is not what I said, in order to maximize a strategy you still need the fastest platform. That is what I believe Red Bull now has.

[slideways]

[codebox]
1 14 Mark Webber Red Bull/Renault 1'21.931 65 192.498
2 4 Kimi Räikkönen Ferrari 1'22.434 0.503 70 191.323
3 16 Nico Rosberg Williams/Toyota 1'22.468 0.537 65 191.245
4 1 Lewis Hamilton McLaren/Mercedes 1'22.479 0.548 16 191.219
5 10 Timo Glock Toyota 1'22.506 0.575 63 191.157
[/codebox]

Webber's race was ruined by the wrong tyre choice in the second stint and the messed up pitstop. He easily would have secured second, and should have been able to fight for the victory with Lewis. RBR really failed to get the most from their car at Hungary.

In terms of WDC shot - he needs to qualify better. In 5 of the last 6 races he has qualified behind Seb and still beaten him in the race, but he can't keep that up forever.

[sejanus]

I was very disappointed with webbers hungary race - with him in p2 with alonso in front very light I thought we'd be looking at back to back wins. I hope it was just a one off due to the car not liking the track.

A lot can happen in 7 races. as a few have said if button just has 1 real stinker of a race and webber wins it'll become a reality very quickly.

webber needs to stop stuffing up those crucial final couple of tenths in Q3

[SB]

For your consideration, in this current context:

Lewis Hamilton is Scott Stoddard
Jenson Button is Pete Aron
Sebastian Vettel is Nino Barlini
Mark Webber is Jean-Pierre Sarti

That's cool !!!

[Alfisti]

I was very disappointed with webbers hungary race - with him in p2 with alonso in front very light I thought we'd be looking at back to back wins. I hope it was just a one off due to the car not liking the track.

A lot can happen in 7 races. as a few have said if button just has 1 real stinker of a race and webber wins it'll become a reality very quickly.

webber needs to stop stuffing up those crucial final couple of tenths in Q3

Odly enough though it helped him in Hungary, he launched REALLY well on the nice side.

I don't thin Hamilton was going to be beaten as his car seemed comfortable on both sets of tyres, Webber was slow in the first stint too but you cannot blame them for grabbing the hards in stint 2 as it worked a charm in Germany.

[FPV GTHO]

RBR were apparently damaging the tyres too much to get the pace in Hungary, something Ferrari and McLaren werent but i guess it still gave the opportunity for some quick laps on a rubbered in track and some good Q2 laps.

I think the next few races we'll see whether Button can hang on. So far this year, #2 has rotated from Barrichello, to Vettel and now to Webber, with the points gap only getting a tiny bit smaller through the process. If Webber can keep #2 and keep taking a few points out of Button per race like he has been the last couple, then its game on really.

[bankoq]

Webber's race was ruined by the wrong tyre choice in the second stint and the messed up pitstop. He easily would have secured second, and should have been able to fight for the victory with Lewis. RBR really failed to get the most from their car at Hungary.

And KERS of Ferrari & McLaren. God, I hate it. If everyone had the device it's OK, but for now it's artificial racing for me.

[MaxFan1]

And KERS of Ferrari & McLaren. God, I hate it. If everyone had the device it's OK, but for now it's artificial racing for me.

It's no more aritificlal than some having turbos, or more than one tire manufacturer. They had a choice but they didn't take it.

[Buttoneer]

If the Brawn keeps letting Button down I think I'd find it impossible to bet against Webber. He and Red Bull are doing a fantastic job this year. Looks like the DDD may have saved the season from total Red Bull domination.

Either way, looks like Newey wins again.

[JRUK]

With more teams stepping up to the plate, it can only help Button's campaign as anyone outside of Brawn or RBR is only going to make it harder for either Webber or Vettel to close the gap by diluting the available points.

Or it could absolutely ruin Button's campaign if it turns out that Ferrari, McLaren, Williams and Toyota are still slightly slower than Red Bull but now at a similar level to Brawn. Webber and Vettel still seem to have a car that can reach the podium consistently while Button's last three finishes were 6th, 5th and 7th. All Webber needs to do is catch Button by an average of 3 points per race which based on the last three races, he can do easily.

[Odvan]

1 	14 	Mark Webber	Red Bull/Renault	1'21.931		65	192.4982 	4 	Kimi Räikkönen	Ferrari			1'22.434	0.503	70	191.3233 	16 	Nico Rosberg	Williams/Toyota		1'22.468	0.537	65	191.2454 	1 	Lewis Hamilton	McLaren/Mercedes	1'22.479	0.548	16	191.2195 	10 	Timo Glock	Toyota			1'22.506	0.575	63	191.157

It's not really representative, because LH time was at he beginning of the race - in the end track has much more rubber and grip - so he can do the same lap time as Mark.

But I will really enjoy if Webber win WDC - it will be awesome.

[Captain Tightpants]

It's too soon to tell, I think. It depends on how well McLaren and Ferrari do for the remainder of the year, especially if Brawn sort out their tyre problems. It would be funny if the drivers' title is sorted out by drivers fighting over fifth and sixth place.

[Atreiu]

When was the last time, if ever, that a driver was WDC on the same year of his maiden win?
1982?

[krapmeister]

Here's hoping.

Mark Webber winning the WDC would be as massive as Australia winning the America's Cup in 1983.

If he can pull off a WDC, it will be the stuff of Australian sporting legend.





I'd rather a Webber WDC than another Ashes series win anyday...

Edited by krapmeister, 06 August 2009 - 12:07.

[mark f1]

Drivers who won their first Grand Prix in the same year they won the WDC.

1982 - Keke Rosberg
1967 - Denny Hulme
1962 - Graham Hill
1959 - Jack Brabham
1950 - Giuseppe Farina

[Atreiu]

That's a very small group.

I'd be fine with any of the Red Bull pilots WDC plus a WCC for them.

[teejay]

He has a genuine shot at it if the Red Bull stays the class of field.

Stick the Williams/McLarens/Ferrari's inbetween them and the Brawns, and there is major major trouble in a short period of time for Jenson.

[raiseyourfistfor]

I hope he doesn't.

[maverick69]

I just hope Brawn sort it out, because I don't know what's worse:

1. The inevitable, relentless Aussie gloating that they got one over on the Poms (even though the car is mostly designed, built and run by Englishmen).

or

2. Vettel wins even though it is becoming clear that he is devoid of the necessary skills to actually fight through a pack.

Edited by HarryReams, 06 August 2009 - 16:18.

[dabrasco]

I think Webber has a very legit chance of winning the WDC. I think I will pick him over Vettel in the battle of the Red Bull drivers.

Now that his leg is almost healed, he is almost matching Vettel on raw qualifying pace...but more importantly, he is looking more capable on race day.

Its incredible to think he had a drive through penalty but still finished comfortably ahead of Vettel in Germany....traffic or no traffic, that was "Lewis - Kova" ish


I think Button might actually be handicapped with the resurgence of Mclaren n Ferrari.... it would have only been an advantage if they still had the fastest car. I very much doubt that right now.

There is a real possibility the Red Bull car will still be faster than those two (Mclaren-Ferrari), but those two will be on same pace as the Brawns...which means Lewis, Kimi, Schu ...3 WDCS will be fighting with Button for points with very similar machinery.

I wont put my money on Button to outscore them.

Webber is definitely THE dark horse...

edit: Also the fact that the cars are so closely matched means sheer aggression and balls on race day could go a long way. Something that doesnt bode well for Vettel.

WEBBER IS THE DARK HORSE

Edited by dabrasco, 06 August 2009 - 16:14.

[Alfisti]

Button and Webber have made cheeky little passes that have really served them well. Webber just nicking onbe past Rosberg gained him 2 places and Button has named numerous cheeky early passes that has gained him a lot of spare points.

[dabrasco]

Button and Webber have made cheeky little passes that have really served them well. Webber just nicking onbe past Rosberg gained him 2 places and Button has named numerous cheeky early passes that has gained him a lot of spare points.

yes, except something changes in Vettels race craft and he grows major balls, I say this WDC is a fight between Button and Webber

[Alfisti]

You cannot underestimate Vettel, if Webber beats him again in Valencia then maybe Webber has him covered just froma confidence perspective but i don't doubt Vettel can come out on top in Valencia. I know Vettel won at Silverstone but since they changed the car, Webber has looked for more comfortable in it than he did pre-silverstone, his car now looks aggressive and purposeful ...... it seemed almost tentative pre-silverstone.

[jez33]

1 	14 	Mark Webber	Red Bull/Renault	1'21.931		65	192.4982 	4 	Kimi Räikkönen	Ferrari			1'22.434	0.503	70	191.3233 	16 	Nico Rosberg	Williams/Toyota		1'22.468	0.537	65	191.2454 	1 	Lewis Hamilton	McLaren/Mercedes	1'22.479	0.548	16	191.2195 	10 	Timo Glock	Toyota			1'22.506	0.575	63	191.157

Webber's race was ruined by the wrong tyre choice in the second stint and the messed up pitstop. He easily would have secured second, and should have been able to fight for the victory with Lewis. RBR really failed to get the most from their car at Hungary.

In terms of WDC shot - he needs to qualify better. In 5 of the last 6 races he has qualified behind Seb and still beaten him in the race, but he can't keep that up forever.

Hamilton was in car conservation mode when Mark set his fastest lap. Both Mac and Ferrari had a pace advantage over RBR on race day on both primes and options, go back and look at the laptimes.

You also forgot to note above it was Mark's decision to run the Option/Prime/Option strategy, not his team's therefore it was his failure for not getting the most out of the car.

[Alfisti]

Why do they even record fastest lap? it seems obsessive here on the BB and it's utterly USELESS.

[jez33]

Why do they even record fastest lap? it seems obsessive here on the BB and it's utterly USELESS.

You could ask the same about pole position given the fuel considerations, but nonetheless it still goes down into the history books as a milestone.

[jez33]

The biggest question about Mark = WDC is whether or not he would be able to cope with the pressure if he got to within sniffing distance.

Right now he is driving well because there is no pressure on him, but a Button DNF + another Mark win could change his mental landscape significantly.

I don't think Mark deals with pressure well - he managed his mind superbly to deal with the Vettel pressure, basically resigning himself to the fact that he could be a #2 to Vettel which in a perverted twisted way has actually boosted his driving performance considerably - question is how well could he will be able to manage his mind with the pressure of hunting down a WDC gap and the exponential build up that goes along with every point that he gets closer to Button.

[Alfisti]

Resigned himself to number 2, i don't think so. He just kept muffing Q3, simple as that, so he moved forward in the races. The complete opposite to the rest iof his career ironically.

[pacwest]

Jez, I used to agree with that. I think webbo had a bit of Rubinho disease. Whinging and blowing some hot air once in a while to his detriment.

I do think that if Webber gets the shaft and he's NOT in contention he went a bit limp. In this current climate, he's within striking distance and the pressure will roll off him since he can smell victory in the WDC. You become a different driver after winning (and driving a competitive car) and I think Mark can shake the pressure doldrums.

Ever been karting and you are in a dog? You just resign yourself to making a good finish. Good kart? Spun off? You FIIIIIGHT to the front. Good cart? GREAT cart 2 places behind you? "HELL NO are you passing my ass!".

Driver psychology comes into play on the back 9 (well 7 in F1). Webber can taste it, blood in the water. I doubt he'll crack.

[maverick69]

Jez, I used to agree with that. I think webbo had a bit of Rubinho disease. Whinging and blowing some hot air once in a while to his detriment.

I do think that if Webber gets the shaft and he's NOT in contention he went a bit limp. In this current climate, he's within striking distance and the pressure will roll off him since he can smell victory in the WDC. You become a different driver after winning (and driving a competitive car) and I think Mark can shake the pressure doldrums.

Ever been karting and you are in a dog? You just resign yourself to making a good finish. Good kart? Spun off? You FIIIIIGHT to the front. Good cart? GREAT cart 2 places behind you? "HELL NO are you passing my ass!".

Driver psychology comes into play on the back 9 (well 7 in F1). Webber can taste it, blood in the water. I doubt he'll crack.

Well, he seemed do a pretty good job of ******* his pants at the start in Germany.

[pacwest]

That's a colourful way of saying saving the car.

Edited by pacwest, 06 August 2009 - 18:40.

[DEVO]

that I would love to see. his only rival is really his teammate as JB doesn't seem to be doing much when the car isn't the best in the field.