67 replies to this topic

[Jedi_F1]

Another sad day for the autoportworld!

Young dutch driver Thomas Knopper died today (August 9) in an accident during a race at the Liedelsholm (Germany) Karting track.

Thomas Knopper from the Netherlands became 19 years young,
he competed last year in the North European Formula Renault Championship,
where he ended 9th.

He also was european champion in the Karting KZ2 class in 2007.

Source: http://www.autosport...pperVerongelukt (dutch)

Website: http://www.thomasknopper.com/

Forix Profile: http://www.forix.com...=...0020600&c=0

R.I.P

Edited by Jedi_F1, 09 August 2009 - 18:15.

[potmotr]

I'd not heard of Thomas Knopper, but always sad when a racer dies.

Was he competing at the time or practicing?

Edited by potmotr, 09 August 2009 - 15:35.

[cheapracer]

I always wonder about the Kart accidents with bad results that we don't hear about - lots of speed and little protection especially when they go ass up which they do often.

[Jedi_F1]

Was he competing at the time or practicing?

Competing,
it happened in a race for the german championship.

[pingu666]

RIP

[dank]

Karting has always seemed particularly dangerous to me, but that's a discussion to be had for another day.

Sad news indeed whenever a driver of any category, level or experience dies. RIP

[Lada Lover]

RIP.

My brother was carting and I was told to leave a section of track because it was dangerous and then a cart went off track and almost hit a wooden picnic table. Racing is never safe but I didn't think you could be killed in a cart.

[potmotr]

I think we need a bit of perspective.

Karting is the least expensive form of circuit motorsport so the numbers of competitors involved around the world each weekend are huge.

I karted (badly) for years and don't know anyone who was seriously hurt.

My worst injury was a cracked rib thanks to stupidly racing with an ill-fitting seat.

You can have nasty looking accidents, usually when karts touch wheels.

But I don't think it is nearly as dangerous as most contact ball sports.

Edited by potmotr, 09 August 2009 - 17:13.

[Just waiting]

Seen some nasty kart accidents, but almost always they are okay
Same for motorcycles.....

cars are different for some reason as they look much safer than they are.

Sad to hear
very sad

[Hypnotise]

He died at Liedolsheim which is a very fast flowing circuit drove on it last year.It is a bit dangerous.I hear he hit a three and he got thrown out of the kart and the kart landed on him R.I.P.


The race was stopped so no other class raced later

Edited by Hypnotise, 09 August 2009 - 18:44.

[postajegenye]

Never heard of him, but when a 19-year-old dies it's always extremely sad and tragic, my thoughts are with the family.
It must be very hard for the parents of other young kart drivers as well, who maybe considered karting to be a relatively safe type of motorsport.

[TinyJim]

The fact this is such a headline is due to the fact motorsport is so safe nowadays that a death is a shock. This is a tragic accident as far as I know. Perspective is needed as there are far more dangerous pursuits out three - horse riding for example.

[rjk]

RIP Thomas. Never Knew him, but when young drivers die, it is extremely tragic.

Full Details have not been released yet.

[Chezrome]

I think we need a bit of perspective.

Karting is the least expensive form of circuit motorsport so the numbers of competitors involved around the world each weekend are huge.

I karted (badly) for years and don't know anyone who was seriously hurt.

My worst injury was a cracked rib thanks to stupidly racing with an ill-fitting seat.

You can have nasty looking accidents, usually when karts touch wheels.

But I don't think it is nearly as dangerous as most contact ball sports.

I think you are right. Last year I researched sportsrelated injuries. Karting didn't even show up in the charts. (For the curious: the top 4 of dangerous sports in the Netherlands, chance per participator: 1. Indoor soccer. 2. Hockey. 3. Horse-riding. 4. Soccer. )

Anyways, RIP Thomas.

[klyster]

Poor young fella, RIP

[Conny_Mary]

RIP…… Don't know him,but it's tragic.
What a silly year!

[JPW]

RIP Thomas

Apparently he tangled karts with an Italian driver and from what I've seen they hit a banking at the end of the straight.
The Italian guy is supposedly seriously injured.

[potmotr]

Apparently he tangled karts with an Italian driver and from what I've seen they hit a banking at the end of the straight.
The Italian guy is supposedly seriously injured.

What category were they running in?

[JPW]

What category were they running in?

KZ2

[Coral]

Another tragedy...RIP Thomas.

[potmotr]

KZ2

Right, so pretty much as quick as you get in the karting world.

[SeanValen]

It's like July and August ran out of luck for the world of motorsport. While things seem safe, the elements of chance were tested in different accidents no one expected could happen., or stop thinking about, because it's been a safe ride for drivers for a while. John Surtee's son, Massa accident, and now Kart accident.

[skinnyman]

RIP

[karlth]

Rest in peace Thomas.

High speed karting is dangerous. I karted fairly regularly for 3-4 years and there were 2 deaths in the series I raced in, lower class 2 stroke karts. I personally even managed to flip my kart and landed helmet first on the tarmac.

Edited by karlth, 10 August 2009 - 12:19.

[JPW]

Yes karting in the top classes can be dangerous stuff but after reading some of the German kart forums I see that karting in those classes is faster and faster every year and that people really take enormous risks without considering their fellow competitors.

Also it seems that a neck protector is not obligatory for those older than 13, now I know the thing is a b*tch but come on you owe it to yourself to wear one when driving such a fast kart.

Sadly Thomas' accident seemed to be a really freak accident, two karts tangling and him being tossed very high into the air and hitting something very hard at an unfortunate angle.
Lets hope that they will learn from this accident and increase safety measures at fast karting like KZ2.

[TinyJim]

Also it seems that a neck protector is not obligatory for those older than 13, now I know the thing is a b*tch but come on you owe it to yourself to wear one when driving such a fast kart.

This is a hugely irresponsible and dangerous attitude IMO. I never liked neck braces, and having done some of my own research discovered that their safety was very very inconclusive. I don't wear one on the grounds of safety. If I was forced to wear one I wouldn't race full stop.

What happened to Thomas seem to be a tragic accident, and some question marks have been raised about the track they were racing on.

Also it shows a lack of research to say karts have got faster. In fact they haven't at all. They have got heavier and more complex but not necessarily faster. A recent article by Italian Karting Magazine Vroom proved that a kart from 1979 was quicker on a lap than a modern kart.

Edited by TinyJim, 10 August 2009 - 21:11.

[potmotr]

I think karting safety has come a long way.

A lot of countries have mandatory bars across the full length of the back wheels and front so wheel to wheel rollovers can be kept a minimum.

[JPW]

What happened to Thomas seem to be a tragic accident, and some question marks have been raised about the track they were racing on.

I agree but question marks have been raised not only about the track (which was approved and where many incident-free races were ran) but also about recent (bad) behaviour in this class and about drivers not using protection that is widely available and even mandatory for young karters.

[TinyJim]

I agree but question marks have been raised not only about the track (which was approved and where many incident-free races were ran) but also about recent (bad) behaviour in this class and about drivers not using protection that is widely available and even mandatory for young karters.

I assume neck protection? Protection like this, as of yet, I have seen absolutely zero scientific evidence to support is actual benefit. Have you got any real scientific data, i very much doubt it. In fact the FIA Institute of Safety sighted helmet weight for Juniors was the main concern hence the new junior helmet standard.

Over the last few year people who wore neck protection have been killed as well - 1 in the USA and 1 in the UK. Now, no one has instantly said "remove the neck protection". What they have understood is you need to analyse what happened, and why it did happen before making any non thought out decision about neck safety.

Of course looking at something and thinking it's safer because it 'looks' safer is very very dangerous indeed. I recall the catch fencing F1 used to have. Sure it looked safer because it catches the cars, but the reality was different, hence it was banned.

This is all Sparco have got on their 'neck support' (not neck safety as you will notice) not product

"Designed with an anatomical rear support. It has been homologated after a very detailed examination by a team of 8 physicians who evaluated its reliability in terms of protection from very strong impacts. A padding with different density degrees has been used. Thus, the neck support will be harder where it meets the base of the helmet and softer on the chin and in the rear areas, in order to reduce the burden of the helmet weight. Available in two different sizes. In red, blue or black."

It does not address the consequences of when a driver may leave the vehicle. It only covers impacts, and helmet weight. This is essential information the manufacturer of the product does not publish on their website. I only assume becuase they have not got the data to support it's safety when a driver leaves the vehicle.

Are you so sure they should be mandatory now?

Edited by TinyJim, 10 August 2009 - 22:32.

[gindan]

In Canada the neck protector, snell 2004 helmet and rib jacket are required in the 125cc 2 stroke classes like Rotax Max jr, Sr and Masters as well as the shifter ICA and ICC classes. Also, i don't know of any tracks that have a tree lining the track in such a way you could hit it if you were ejected. Well I knew of one but it was unsanctioned (think the old hockenhiem with no guardrail or tires) and it was plowed under for land development. I did 1 slow warm up lap at that track and once i realized it was essentially a track cut out of a forest with no safety i parked it, loaded up and payed the extra costs for practicing at a real track. It wasn't worth the low track day fee to take that risk.

[TinyJim]

In Canada the neck protector, snell 2004 helmet and rib jacket are required in the 125cc 2 stroke classes like Rotax Max jr, Sr and Masters as well as the shifter ICA and ICC classes. Also, i don't know of any tracks that have a tree lining the track in such a way you could hit it if you were ejected. Well I knew of one but it was unsanctioned (think the old hockenhiem with no guardrail or tires) and it was plowed under for land development. I did 1 slow warm up lap at that track and once i realized it was essentially a track cut out of a forest with no safety i parked it, loaded up and payed the extra costs for practicing at a real track. It wasn't worth the low track day fee to take that risk.

You made a sensible decision. You analysed what was in front of you and left. However why do you wear neck support device without the actual scientific data to prove whether they really are safer?

Edited by TinyJim, 10 August 2009 - 22:35.

[alfa1]

He died at Liedolsheim which is a very fast flowing circuit drove on it last year.It is a bit dangerous.

For those curious to know about the track, here is a youtube video showing some onboard camera from someone driving the track.
Hazards all over the place if you leave the road.
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

And specifically to poor Thomas, a short bit of video post accident showing the corner in question. Just off the edge of the road is a steep backing that would launch and flip anyone going off at that point. In hindsight, its bad that people are even allowed to race there.

[Daidy]

I think we need a bit of perspective.

Karting is the least expensive form of circuit motorsport so the numbers of competitors involved around the world each weekend are huge.

I karted (badly) for years and don't know anyone who was seriously hurt.

My worst injury was a cracked rib thanks to stupidly racing with an ill-fitting seat.

You can have nasty looking accidents, usually when karts touch wheels.

But I don't think it is nearly as dangerous as most contact ball sports.

I dont know how you Karted for years, yet never saw someone who was seriously hurt. I have Karted for nearly 6 years and have seen numerous serious accidents, with the most serious accident ending up with a person in intensive care. On the other hand I have played football for a sunday team and a 5 a side team weeknights and only one major injury(a broken leg) with only minor injuries such as sprained ankles or broken fingers etc. a regular occurence. I think it says something about the safety of Karting when MSA sanctioned events have ambulances on stand by at the circuit with parademics. I cannot recall ever playing in a game of football where this was the case.

[mcerqueira]

I dont know how you Karted for years, yet never saw someone who was seriously hurt. I have Karted for nearly 6 years and have seen numerous serious accidents, with the most serious accident ending up with a person in intensive care. On the other hand I have played football for a sunday team and a 5 a side team weeknights and only one major injury(a broken leg) with only minor injuries such as sprained ankles or broken fingers etc. a regular occurence. I think it says something about the safety of Karting when MSA sanctioned events have ambulances on stand by at the circuit with parademics. I cannot recall ever playing in a game of football where this was the case.

Agree. I think that contact sports (I also played indoor soccer for some time) must have a higher rate of risk of minor injury but motorsport a higher rate of risk of serious or fatal injury no? Saying that contact sports is more dangerous than motorsports is a bit misleading I think, unless someone has solid stats to back it up(?)

[Muzza]

For those curious to know about the track, here is a youtube video showing some onboard camera from someone driving the track.
Hazards all over the place if you leave the road.
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

And specifically to poor Thomas, a short bit of video post accident showing the corner in question. Just off the edge of the road is a steep backing that would launch and flip anyone going off at that point. In hindsight, its bad that people are even allowed to race there.

The conditions at this track are appalling. Small run-off areas, fences and barriers near the track and placed at absurd angles, unprotected embankments and trees - all this in a high-speed lay-out. The most shocking is the wholly exposed, unprotected building at the back stretch (it's the track office): see it at 0:25 in the video published at http://www.youtube.c...feature=related.

How come the German Karting Championship races at this venue? Here in California not even a regional cup would be hosted in a place like that.

We published a biography of Thomas Knopper at http://www.motorspor...hp?db=ct&n=8982. Corrections are most appreciated.

[gindan]

[quote name='Muzza' date='Aug 11 2009, 02:15' post='3791591']
The conditions at this track are appalling. Small run-off areas, fences and barriers near the track and placed at absurd angles, unprotected embankments and trees - all this in a high-speed lay-out. The most shocking is the wholly exposed, unprotected building at the back stretch (it's the track office): see it at 0:25 in the video published at http://www.youtube.c...feature=related.

That track is insane! You eat the trees or the embankment if you have any problems. This is where I practice and occasionally race.....as you can see, plenty of runnoff, tirewalls lining the entire track, no trees or buildings or cement walls anywhere close to the track:

Edited by gindan, 11 August 2009 - 04:16.

[potmotr]

I dont know how you Karted for years, yet never saw someone who was seriously hurt. I have Karted for nearly 6 years and have seen numerous serious accidents, with the most serious accident ending up with a person in intensive care.

Well excuse me for not being as hardcore!

During my time karting (also six years) I saw someone left on the track knocked out and saw someone break a wrist.

I also saw few people left with quite bad bruising, lots of cracked ribs, and one guy ended up with quite bad cuts after a kart landed in his lap.

I heard of a few broken bones down country, but never while I was racing.

On the other hand, from my time playing soccer and rubgy I saw quite a few broken bones, and one guy get serious neck injuries.

[alfista]

I dont know how you Karted for years, yet never saw someone who was seriously hurt. I have Karted for nearly 6 years and have seen numerous serious accidents, with the most serious accident ending up with a person in intensive care. On the other hand I have played football for a sunday team and a 5 a side team weeknights and only one major injury(a broken leg) with only minor injuries such as sprained ankles or broken fingers etc. a regular occurence. I think it says something about the safety of Karting when MSA sanctioned events have ambulances on stand by at the circuit with parademics. I cannot recall ever playing in a game of football where this was the case.

I did two years with ICA in 1996-97 and have seen some quite bad accidents. Generally they seemed worse that they were. Once a poor guy flipped over and broke both his collarbones. I put my kart upside down once but it was very low-speed and nothing bad happened. My most serious accident was when rear rim failed in the fastest part of the track. Crash itself was not a big deal but the wheel broke something at the carburetor and engine revved on with full throttle. It was not possible to close the air inlet so I decided to rip off the spark plug wire and got a proper electric shock.
I used to play baskeball as a measure to keep my fitness and my record in it is much worse than in karting: nose broken two times, fingers broken two times, twisted ankles many times and countless bruises. Karting resulted only in bruised ribs - I was too brave and didn't use rib protector in my first races.
Basically karting is quite safe but then you would be surprised how many people have died in karting accidents.

Edited by alfista, 11 August 2009 - 09:39.

[jeze]

It's a very sad thing, but I think the track is to blame in this case. How on earth can there be trees so close to the track, that karts actually can hit them? It's a very unfortunate incident, especially as he was just 19 years old, and never got the chance to live as an adult. At least he died while doing what he loved the most. My thoughts are with his family at this moment.

If Google Translate has done its job: Beste Thomas, rusten in vrede voor altijd

[JPW]

It's a very sad thing, but I think the track is to blame in this case. How on earth can there be trees so close to the track, that karts actually can hit them? It's a very unfortunate incident, especially as he was just 19 years old, and never got the chance to live as an adult. At least he died while doing what he loved the most. My thoughts are with his family at this moment.

If Google Translate has done its job: Beste Thomas, rusten in vrede voor altijd

According to people who were at the track this accident could have happened anywhere, two karts tangled and he was katapulted high into the air. He didn't hit a tree.

Still it's all very very sad when such a young and talented man dies in a freak accident.

[jeze]

According to people who were at the track this accident could have happened anywhere, two karts tangled and he was katapulted high into the air. He didn't hit a tree.

Still it's all very very sad when such a young and talented man dies in a freak accident.

Indeed, it's very sad. There's propably no footage, so we can't get a picture ourselves about it, but if your word is right, it was most likely a feature that could have happened anywhere. It's such a shame that it happens, but unfortunately it does.

[Daidy]

Well excuse me for not being as hardcore!

During my time karting (also six years) I saw someone left on the track knocked out and saw someone break a wrist.

I also saw few people left with quite bad bruising, lots of cracked ribs, and one guy ended up with quite bad cuts after a kart landed in his lap.

I heard of a few broken bones down country, but never while I was racing.

On the other hand, from my time playing soccer and rubgy I saw quite a few broken bones, and one guy get serious neck injuries.

I wasn't accusing you of not being as hardcore, why would I feel the need to do this. All I was saying was in my experience I have seen some very nasty accidents and injuries. Someone mentioned about having recieved a greater number of injuries whilst playing Basketball. Whereas this may be the case, the injuries mentioned do seem to be minor. I personally believe that although most Karting races go ahead without incident, there is a greater risk of serious injury. With perhaps the exception of Rugby (where scrums and tackles can be extremely dangerous), I have rarely heard of a death in Football or other sports from physical contact or injury. Clearly this post highlights that over the years there have numerous Karting deaths, the one I can remember most recently being at Buckmore Park in November 2006 and obviously poor Thomas this weekend. RIP

[Hypnotise]

Last year I was on 6 races from all those races one got injured which is great because the year before 5 got injured including me.That is because they have raised the saftey in karting with those plastic bumpers and such.But its always sad when someone gets injured or dies

Edited by Hypnotise, 11 August 2009 - 13:30.

[Muzza]

According to people who were at the track this accident could have happened anywhere, two karts tangled and he was katapulted high into the air. He didn't hit a tree.

Still it's all very very sad when such a young and talented man dies in a freak accident.

I beg to differ JPW - this sounds like a lame defense by track personnel. Obviously the accident could have happened anywhere, karts tangle all the time, even those with bumpers. What must not happen anywhere is a driver hitting an object after an accident. It is important to dissociate the causes from the consequences of an accident.

According to several eyewitness at the track Kroppel's body hit at least one tree. But just for the sake of the argumentation, let's pretend he didn't. So let's talk about some other track "features". Kroppel and his kart went up an unprotected embankment - could that happen "anywhere" too? Then, Kroppel's kart rolled back down the embankment and onto the track, causing a massive pile-up that injured two more drivers. And this, could it have happened "anywhere"?

I regret using such a cliche, but this is a case of a tragedy waiting to happen. Liedolsheim has dangerous points all around. The only thing that could have happened "anywhere" was a serious accident at that track. Just luck prevented it from taking place sooner.

Indeed, it's very sad. There's propably no footage, so we can't get a picture ourselves about it, but if your word is right, it was most likely a feature that could have happened anywhere. It's such a shame that it happens, but unfortunately it does.

Hi jeze,

There is footage of the accident, recorded by two cameras. The images were not released to the public. Paolo De Conto, the driver with whom Kroppel tangled, triggering the accident, has stated that he simply cannot bear to watch them. I'm not surprised.

Regards,


Muzza

[JPW]

I beg to differ JPW..........

Fine with me and I must say you make some good points, I just brought over the opinion of several members of a German kart forum who saw the accident.
Anyway personally I don't think it appropriate to play the blame game in a thread about a young man's tragic death, so if you don't mind I'll leave it at this.

Here's a link to the German kartforum where I got my info from if you want to discuss it there and please the deceased was named Thomas Knopper and not "Kroppel".

edit: do you perhaps know how Paolo De Conto's medical condition is?

Edited by JPW, 11 August 2009 - 14:59.

[Muzza]

Fine with me and I must say you make some good points, I just brought over the opinion of several members of a German kart forum who saw the accident.
Anyway personally I don't think it appropriate to play the blame game in a thread about a young man's tragic death, so if you don't mind I'll leave it at this.

Here's a link to the German kartforum where I got my info from if you want to discuss it there and please the deceased was named Thomas Knopper and not "Kroppel".

edit: do you perhaps know how Paolo De Conto's medical condition is?

It's good to debate with you too, and thanks pointing me to your sources. I read the thread at the Kartfahrer forum and it contains links to interesting articles (just for the sake of accuracy, and this is fundamental for our work at Motorsport Memorial, I did not see any remark stating that Knopper did not hit a tree, whereas the people that wrote us state that they saw that happening).

I certainly have no interest in assigning blame - quite the opposite. However, we all - and by "we" I mean anyone with sincere interest in the sport, something often collectively called "The Racing Community" here at the Racing Comments forum - must not shield ourselves from critically diagnosing what happened. If we don't do that, we are bound to repeat it. I've been around the racing block for some 30 years now and have seen it happening time and again. Unfortunately after a fatal accident occurs the common reactions are - in no order - A.) dismissal ("it's part of the game") B.) denial of responsibility ("let's not blame anyone"), C.) wrath ("let's find someone/something to blame), D.) sensationalism (often carried out by the non-racing media, but not exclusively) or E.) gore-driven curiosity. I'm a disappointed that the thread at Kartfahrer has been so heavy-handedly managed - what dropped into the Category B above ("let's not blame anyone"). Only scientific investigations that leave no stones unturned with direct feedback to the way racing is carried out can effectively improve the safety of the sport. In an amateur level, that's what we do at Motorsport Memorial (amongst other things, but let's leave these aside as they don't pertain what happened at Liedolsheim).

Clearly no proper investigation can be done if one jumps to conclusions, and I may have given the impression that I did just that by calling the conditions of the track "appalling". However, one does not need further analysis to conclude that, as shown by various videos and pictures. It's very dangerous to race KZ2 karts - or anything remotely as fast - at that venue. This not assigning blame - it's a statement of fact.

De Conto is doing well and has left the hospital. He suffered bruises and has a microfracture on a wrist (the left one, I think). He's on the mend, fortunately, as the two other drivers that were injured are too.

My apologies for writing Thomas's surname "Kroppel" - that was a gross error on my part.

Regards,


Sal

[JPW]

It's good to debate with you too, and thanks pointing me to your sources. I read the thread at the Kartfahrer forum and it contains links to interesting articles (just for the sake of accuracy, and this is fundamental for our work at Motorsport Memorial, I did not see any remark stating that Knopper did not hit a tree, whereas the people that wrote us state that they saw that happening).

Thanks for the elaborate answer Sal, I'll try and find the posts about him not hitting a tree for you.
Btw good to hear that De Conto is on the mend.

Interesting your are involved with Motorsport Memorial,I didn't even know about it until recently

Anyway keep up the good work and please accept my apologies for maybe confusing your good intentions with "playing the blame game".

JPW

[Mary Popsins]

I was wondering how a kart driver could break his neck in an accident where several other guys suffered broken feet or legs. Now I got an answer from a debate that seems to have been a bit loud at times; and thanks to Muzza and JPW for giving some air to the topic.
Not much protection it seems. It's a bit odd though that one talks about statistics and the scientific stuff, only to provide evidence that it was "just that one guy, and no one before". It would have been the right moment for being less passionate.

Also I was intrigued all day because there was nothing on Thomas in the English news, only in Dutch and French.


Most of all, rest in peace.

[TinyJim]

Also I was intrigued all day because there was nothing on Thomas in the English news, only in Dutch and French.

Most mainstream English motorsport media ignore karting because it's not financially a worthwhile thing to do whether the news story is good or bad. Most people care about F1, WRC and the BTCC. Nothing else

[Sintra]

Here a youtube of a karting crash between Verstappen en Fisichella:



As you see, the drivers are really vulnerable when things go wrong.
I have witnessed a couple of roll-overs in my karting days, of which one serious with one guy being unconscious and on fire. He turned out to have a fractured skull and recovered as far as I know.