95 replies to this topic

[Kucki]

Is it the tracks layout where there is no real overtaking spot and the drivers dont have to drift towards the walls like in Monaco?

Is it the surroundings of the tracks looking like in a Industrial Park with barely any spectators?

You could put some blame on the cars aswell but its always the same tracks that have boring races, tracks like Spa, Montreal or Monza, they often provide good racing, and if they dont provide good racing watching the onboard camera is very exciting in itself.

In Valencia the racing is non-existant, last year there was not a single overtaking maneuvre. Whats the problem with that track? Should they redesign or go to somewhere else, there are alot of great tracks around the world.

I would love to see F1 at Road America or Watkins Glen.

Edited by Kucki, 23 August 2009 - 20:28.

[FlatOverCrest]

Track Design has been one of the greatest issues with modern F1 tracks for years......

Why is more of a track design issue than a car issue....

Circuit Gille Villeneuve, Montreal.. one of the few circuits where even despite the modern F1 car design, there is overtaking into the hairpin or "L'Epingle". Many circuits now suffer from "Tilkism"...where he can be completely HIT and miss on his circuit design.

Maylasia is the same concept as Canada in terms of a damn long stright into a tight hairpin, which makes for great overtaking moves.

So it's not so much the car design but the ability for the good old fashioned late braking manouvre ... when a circuit does not have this... welcome to boringville!

[Dragonfly]

It's mainly the cars, the drivers and the awful lot of restrictions. After the first 2 laps most just turn on the cruse control figuratively speaking.

[tormave]

It's not the cars or drivers, it's the track.

Just look at the GP2 races in Valencia this weekend. The main Saturday race was as processional as the F1 race. The reverse-grid Sunday race on the other hand was a demolition derby. There is just no places where you could have two cars going side-by-side into a corner there and expect a happy outcome. There's one clean line and if you go out of it at speed, either you'll hit the car you are trying to pass or then you hit the concrete wall. In the second GP2 race, there were several instances of a cars with severely damaged front or rear wings (or both!) not even being really challenged by cars with no visible damage.

Valencia is simply a slot car race track and that's it. It's also hard to see a corner, where a small change could make a big difference in this respect.

[wewantourdarbyback]

The cars. That track actually has areas that should be overtaking opportunities but no one can get close enough to provide exciting racing.

[rolf123]

It is the combination of the cars and the track. Talk about the worst marriage in history.

Seems after the OWG failed (DD/DDD introduction) that nothing is being done for next year. This p1sses me off immensely. They should just go ahead and ban the DD/DDD for next year like they meant to this year.

This track would be OK for other cars but it is the worst marriage. You have many low traction acceleration zones and also high speed corners (the dirty air zone is absolutely huge here). And this is why Valencia sucks for F1 but I still blame the car before the track.

Remember, there have been some silverstone borefests as bad as Valencia in recent years and yet Silverstone has provided great races in the past. The damn cars!!

[engel]

Imagine Valencia next year with no refueling ... you won't even get the strategy factor to change second corner order.

[Don_Humpador]

Imagine Valencia next year with no refueling ... you won't even get the strategy factor to change second corner order.

Very good point here.

I can't believe we've had 2 races here at Valencia in F1 and still not even a safety car to jumble things up a bit.

It's just such a terribly boring track to watch, Webber admitted it too.

[Hole]

In other single-seaters racing series, not only GP2 but also F3, the races were more exciting. This being a fact I see a bit cinic to keep on taking it against the track, but well...

[engel]

In other single-seaters racing series, not only GP2 but also F3, the races were more exciting. This being a fact I see a bit cinic to keep on taking it against the track, but well...

GP2 race was a borefest what on earth are you on about? Hulkenberg went wide EOS he could pass Petrov no matter what.

[Keith68]

F1 car design and rules don't help the situation, but at least there is some overtaking elsewhere. At Valencia there is nothing.

Unless I blinked and missed something, the only overtake I saw aside from under blue flag was Button letting Webber past.

Sooner its gone from the calender the better.

Has anyone analysed where the majority of F1 overtaking is done? Aside from fuel and tyre stops, obviously the clear winner! I'd have thought it was under braking after a long straight into a hairpin...but happy to be wrong.

Edited by Keith68, 24 August 2009 - 10:33.

[wewantourdarbyback]

I think the point must be made that while the track is poor there are a couple of areas where cars should be close to each other, in the GP2 feature there may not have been a huge amount of actual overtaking but they was some close racing making it at least a bit more exciting. Even in GP2 though the aero doesn't help cars get close any more but to a very minor extent compared to F1.

At least with a better ability to follow cars we could end up with a Mansell/Senna at Monaco 92 situation at Valencia for a while. That would be more exciting than yesterdays race. Without refuelling and with the same cars I dread next years race.

[johnmhinds]

Do the concrete walls funnel the air coming off the back of the cars any different to a more open track?

I didn't see any of the F1 cars getting within a second of the car in front of them yesterday.
And nobody even came close to making a genuine overtaking maneuver after the first couple of laps of mayhem.

The field spread at Valencia seems to be exaggerated for some reason. There was no close racing throughout the whole of the grid.

Edited by johnmhinds, 24 August 2009 - 11:25.

[Henrytheeigth]

Hmm when pit stops were happening we had excitment! So I think not only refueling should be allowed, but 5 pit stop races should occur, to give us action aplenty...

[FPV GTHO]

I think its due to the nature of the circuit and its limited use. Abit like Hungary, the track is only getting used once or twice a year. The surface itself is probably low grip anyway, and with almost no running on it theres no rubber. Any rubber that does go on there, goes on in a single line.

[stevewf1]

It's the cars, not the tracks (and maybe even the drivers these days).

I remember when Montreal was introduced in 1978 (when F1 cars were much "slower"), Mario Andretti likened it to a Karting track...

[DOF_power]

The track sucks, but so do the cars, and the drivers no longer let the faster car get by like they used to.

[Atreiu]

It's more down to the cars than it is down to the track.

There's way more than a km of full throttle from the bridge to the chincane, and even then the cars can't overtake. A km should be more than enough, but not with spec cars so fast and equal in performance.

[Lewis]

NO OR LESS OVERTAKING.

[George Costanza]

The answer is simple: Go back to the 1990 Regulations with less Aero grip...

Edited by George Costanza, 24 August 2009 - 14:04.

[stevewf1]

The answer is simple: Go back to the 1990 Regulations with less Aero grip...

Make it a Driver's Championship again - not an Engineer's Championship.

[Pikku Pakkanen]

There's way more than a km of full throttle from the bridge to the chincane, and even then the cars can't overtake. A km should be more than enough, but not with spec cars so fast and equal in performance.

It's because the chicane is too fast:



I think it should be more like this:



Some other corners could be a little more tight too.

[George Costanza]

Make it a Driver's Championship again - not an Engineer's Championship.

Yes and bring back the lovely Ferrari V12s...

[scheivlak]

It's the cars, not the tracks (and maybe even the drivers these days).

I remember when Montreal was introduced in 1978 (when F1 cars were much "slower"), Mario Andretti likened it to a Karting track...

In Montreal we see a genuine overtaking manoeuvre every now and then.
There are several reasons why Valencia is such a bore, the main is that there is only 1 racing line, and outside of that you simply lose time.
And apart from the dustiness and the current F1 cars' design that has also something to do with the layout of circuit as well. There are a few corners that aren't real corners when you're right on the racing line, but slow you down outside of it.

Apart from that, the surroundings are bland at best. The track is flat, there's no elevation, no trees, no nothing. it's all to artificial, and after a while all those walls really get to me.

[Atreiu]

For next year, Bridgestone should provide super-extra-soft tyres and bubble gum.
I'm sure we'll see some action once the tyres deteriorate to become 2s a lap slower than initially.

[Henrytheeigth]

It's because the chicane is too fast:



I think it should be more like this:



Some other corners could be a little more tight too.

Wow did you actually go out on the track and draw that line?

[Pikku Pakkanen]

Wow did you actually go out on the track and draw that line?

Yeah, I just had to show those stupid Spaniards.

[Rob]

For next year, Bridgestone should provide super-extra-soft tyres and bubble gum.
I'm sure we'll see some action once the tyres deteriorate to become 2s a lap slower than initially.

Or make them stupidly hard so that we don't get marbles off of the racing line.

[Captain Tightpants]

I tink there's a few things that can be done to fix the circuit up a little. They're no guarantee of success, but I think they'll at least make it a little more interesting.

- Firstly, Valencia has no "threat" to it. Unlike Monaco and even Singapore, the barriers are nowhere near the circuit. They need to be brought in closer. Much closer. I know Buemi's brake failure would have been an accident worthy of the safety car, but if the drivers cannot bin it if hey get it wrong, there's no pressure.

- Next, the circuit needs to be variously widened and narrowed in places. The final corner is simply too narrow; it's little wonder Alonso hit Heidfeld. In other places the cars could run four abreast with room to spare. It needs to be even and consistent. Likewise, the circuit needs to be rubbered in more; one of the reasons why it's so difficult to overtake is because it's so dirty off-line.

- A few of the corners are in need of reprofiling. The first complex - the stop/start chicanery - need to go. The cars should run flat out from the Start Line all the way around to the bridge, with everyone jockeying for position in a concrete canyon.

- Turn seven - the one leading onto the bridge - could also do with a touch-up. Rather than being a tighter-than-your average second-gear affair, I'd make it a bit of a sweeper that feeds into the chute-like swing bridge. Make it fast enough to be taken at a recent rate of knots if you've got good rubber, but after a few laps you have to be careful.

- Get rid of the switchback. I know Tilke's a fan of long straights with heavy braking points at the end, but this one is particularly uninspiring. I'd make it a fast chicane like the one that makes the beginning of the final secotr in Melbourne.

- Following that, extend the run down to turn seventeen, the tight right-hander. The idea is that the drivers go flat from the bridge, down through the fast chicane where they have to lift off a little and then brake heavily for seventeen. Both very technical and very difficult, it's a place where it will be very easy to make mistakes.

- The final turn needs work as well. Move the Start/Finish line forward a little bit and start the final turn earlier. It now becomes a blind double-apex taken as one corner, kind of like a slower Pouhon. To make things more interesting, the complex of nothing corners just before it - the BBC noted that some of the GP2 drivers were actually ignoring a corner in there - can be made more pronounced, forcing drivers to cut very quickly back across the track to be on the racing line for the final corner. The pit entry should be taken off the racing line as well. It should kick right and then make a hard left; I kept noticing there was a wide space of unused tarmac during th telecast, but I figure it was just a normal road.

Okay, I know some of those suggestions just turn the place into a speed-bowl. The idea is that while roughly the first half of the lap - except for the turn off the bridge - can be taken quickly, the back half is designed to be highly technical and as much of a test of equipment as driver ability. As tyres and brakes wear down and driver fatigue starts to kick in, the final sector becomes a maze of hard corners lined with even harder concrete if someone screws it up.

[Henrytheeigth]

Yeah, I just had to show those stupid Spaniards.

Brave person!

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

It's the stupid two-compound tire rules combined with Q3 refueling "strategy".


F1 right now is effectively 4*4 different temporary "classes" running at the same time:

1) low fuelers/short stinters;
2) heavy cars/long stints;
3) prime tire cars;
4) option tire cars.

So effectively, at anyone one time, you temporarily have 32 different "classes" running at the same time. For example, cars on primes running on track against option tires - essentially a different "class", so you can't expect them to be racing on track. You wouldn't expect a "race" between 4 cars that were set up with those completely different configurations!


Divide all the cars by that, and you really only have cars racing on the first laps. The rest is one-car to one-car strategy (Lewis/Rubens, for example).

Combine that with a track that is sort of "neutral" - not really high downforce,low downforce, short/long stop - you get a "flowchart race".

[Desdirodeabike]

You want overtaking? Give the cars brakes that double the brake distance. That should do the trick.

[fanboy]

This myth of valencia being especially boring is hilarious. The race was not decided until the last 15 laps, yet your all whinging that it was especially boring? Ever watched the hungarian gp or canadian? or bahrain? This year silverstone was decided after one lap, so was turkey, hungary was boring, nurburg ect.

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

HAVING SAID THAT,

[size="4"]FOM camera "philosophy" needs to be revised, big time.[/size]


WHY IT *LOOKED* BORING:

In a situation like at Valencia, where the track itself is prone to look the same, fast cuts do not give the viewer a chance to establish his/her "bearings" on the track. As far as I'm concerned there's only 2, maybe 3 "iconic", recognizable landmarks viewable on the track:

- the bridge;
- the "green warehouse"
- the "angular canopied warehouse"

Because of this, anywhere else on the track is effectively "generic, unrecognizable".

So the problem is this:

1) by doing fast jump cuts, the viewer isn't given a chance to figure out/remember where on the track the shot is;
2) by doing panning shots, the viewer further isn't given a chance to *learn* where a location on the track is (because it's in motion);
3) by doing zooming shots, the same thing applies.


You can switch up the shots involving the easily discernable "landmarks": the bridge, for example. The rest - it just makes it confusing. In other words, switching angles, panning, whatever "artsy" thing one wants to do with a landmark can potentially work, mixed with other approaches - because the viewer can instantly realize "oh, this is the bridge complex". Boom shots, panning sometimes, other times stationary, etc. on the "dull" parts of the track actually makes them more dull - you're spending half the race trying to figure out "is that the main straight? Oh, wait, no..?"

Mix in jumping around the circuit without regard to a "track direction" concept, and you have to really study the course to know where the cars are.


Another point:

A panning shot should stop moving when a car is going to leave the frame against a landmark. If the panning continues you lose all sense of speed.

Zoomed out, wide angle shots look slow unless there's visual context, of which Valencia has little (save the helicopter views (which were great)).
Zoomed in, narrow angle shots look slow head - on.

[stevewf1]

Yes and bring back the lovely Ferrari V12s...

V12s, V8s, Flat 12s... Uh-Oh, (speaking for myself), I'm starting to sound like an Old Fogey longing for the "good 'ol days".

[wewantourdarbyback]

This myth of valencia being especially boring is hilarious. The race was not decided until the last 15 laps, yet your all whinging that it was especially boring? Ever watched the hungarian gp or canadian? or bahrain? This year silverstone was decided after one lap, so was turkey, hungary was boring, nurburg ect.

Whilst the race for 1st may have been decided early at those tracks further back there was some interest. Nothing happened in Valencia, nothing, no close racing, no dramas, no overtaking.


As for Canada where you watching the last two races?

[wewantourdarbyback]

the drivers no longer let the faster car get by like they used to.

Name a single time when that would have improved the last race.

[alfista]

It's the stupid two-compound tire rules combined with Q3 refueling "strategy".


F1 right now is effectively 4*4 different temporary "classes" running at the same time:

1) low fuelers/short stinters;
2) heavy cars/long stints;
3) prime tire cars;
4) option tire cars.

So effectively, at anyone one time, you temporarily have 32 different "classes" running at the same time. For example, cars on primes running on track against option tires - essentially a different "class", so you can't expect them to be racing on track. You wouldn't expect a "race" between 4 cars that were set up with those completely different configurations!


Divide all the cars by that, and you really only have cars racing on the first laps. The rest is one-car to one-car strategy (Lewis/Rubens, for example).

Combine that with a track that is sort of "neutral" - not really high downforce,low downforce, short/long stop - you get a "flowchart race".

Can you explain how running all cars on the same tyres with same fuel-loads and without pit-stops will spice up the show? IMO what we have now are cars made fast in different times of race due to various tyres and fuel-loads and strategies. I hate this because it's artificial but without pitstops there will be one 1.5-hour procession without any possibility to change places.

[Seanspeed]

While there's definitely decent overtaking spots on the track, it lacks something important - difficulty. There is no real challenging sections, there's plenty of runoff, and the track is quite smooth. This makes it so that the drivers are almost always hitting their marks, and never making the kind of mistakes that spice up a race(whether through a crash or a bad run out of a corner, resulting in getting passed).

The scenery needs some sprucing up, too.

Combine all this with cars that are already barely able to overtake, and you've got a fairly boring race, action-wise(I thought it was still pretty entertaining with everything going on).

I really wouldn't say its a bad track, necessarily. I just think its done a little too by-the-book, without any real 'x' factor that some other tracks have.

Edited by Seanspeed, 24 August 2009 - 16:35.

[stevewf1]

Can you explain how running all cars on the same tyres with same fuel-loads and without pit-stops will spice up the show? IMO what we have now are cars made fast in different times of race due to various tyres and fuel-loads and strategies. I hate this because it's artificial but without pitstops there will be one 1.5-hour procession without any possibility to change places.

They did the no tire change thing back in 2005, I think.

How about no refueling AND no tire changes?

[engel]

They did the no tire change thing back in 2005, I think.

How about no refueling AND no tire changes?

no refueling worked when there was variance in the cars (and engines)

These days there isn't

and these days a driver has 20 different engine maps that will get him to the end of the race no matter, it's not like oh Bob is great at saving fuel whereas George isn't .... team will go on the radio, tell George to go mix5 and end of story.

The actual speed differential you need in F1 to overtake a car ahead isn't the hundredths and tenths we have today, it's seconds (per lap) and I just don't see it happening. Everything is way too optimized.

[Seanspeed]

Can you explain how running all cars on the same tyres with same fuel-loads and without pit-stops will spice up the show?

Because the cars will actually change over the race and drivers can actually choose to take different approaches.

A driver may choose to be aggressive in the beginning, trying to gain as many spots as possible and/or create a lead that he hopes will be unsurmountable. But that driver will punish his tires, leaving him vulnerable during the later stages.

Or he may choose to be more conservative the first half, riding out any dramas and preserving their tires for a 2nd half attack.

Also, cars change as the fuel levels drop. What may be a really badly balanced car in the 1st half may turn into a perfect racing machine later on as it gets lighter. Or vice-versa.

The cars definitely a bit more work to reduce the instability in the wake, but a ban of refueling should definitely help to make things a LOT more interesting.

[SpeedRacer`]

I don't know why people blame the tracks. Spa will be awful this weekend in dry weather, just look at the 2007 race.

[wewantourdarbyback]

Spa will be awful this weekend

No it won't...


I'll be there

[J-Raid]

Please keep all the comments coming. I can manage the organization to hear some of the views. So feel free to tell here why is the track failing (not only overtaking wise, but also visuals, references, etc), and what to do to improve it

Incidentally last year I already suggested painting the wall/fences to one of my contacts I have in the organization, and they did…not so sure if it was because of me though ;)

Looking forward to your words!

Edited by J-Raid, 24 August 2009 - 16:56.

[scheivlak]

This myth of valencia being especially boring is hilarious. The race was not decided until the last 15 laps, yet your all whinging that it was especially boring? Ever watched the hungarian gp or canadian? or bahrain? This year silverstone was decided after one lap, so was turkey, hungary was boring, nurburg ect.

But we've seen pretty entaining GPs at all those sites, even very recently. And Canadian GPs are usually pretty exciting!
I can't see that happening at all at Valencia unless it rains, but the chances for that are practically zero.

Add to that the fact that a boring race at Valencia is especially hard to stomach because the scenery is bleh and you're staring at prefab walls for most of the time.
I have far less problems watching a Monaco procession because of the historic scenery, the elevation, the trees, and the challenge for the drivers as a result of the character and features of the circuit like an ultra sharp hairpin and a 290km/h+ tunnel.
Even Bahrain has more 'local atmosphere' than this place which somehow involuntarily reminds me of EU subsidies and semi-corrupt regional governments.

[scheivlak]

I don't know why people blame the tracks. Spa will be awful this weekend in dry weather, just look at the 2007 race.

Well, we had quite a few real battles and real passes then.... Not my idea of an awful race.

[SpeedRacer`]

Well, we had quite a few real battles and real passes then.... Not my idea of an awful race.

Not in the top 4 we didn't. It was static after the first corner, which I find very dull indeed.

[alfista]

Because the cars will actually change over the race and drivers can actually choose to take different approaches.

A driver may choose to be aggressive in the beginning, trying to gain as many spots as possible and/or create a lead that he hopes will be unsurmountable. But that driver will punish his tires, leaving him vulnerable during the later stages.

I doubt. More or less the same have been told about many recent changes but what have we seen. After two or three races all teams have found the optimum solution. I suspect it will be the same or even worse. Qualification will be run with light cars and it basically means that fastest cars will always start from front. IMO even differences in car design will be reduced. You can't play any more with tank volume for example.
But I hope driver's role will be more important and maybe it makes races more interesting.

[wewantourdarbyback]

Because the cars will actually change over the race and drivers can actually choose to take different approaches.

A driver may choose to be aggressive in the beginning, trying to gain as many spots as possible and/or create a lead that he hopes will be unsurmountable. But that driver will punish his tires, leaving him vulnerable during the later stages.

They can do all that now can't they, except now they add the dimension of trying a more aggressive fuel strategy.