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'Climb To The Clouds'... by the Colliers


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#1 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 October 2000 - 09:19

Several years ago I came across a book detailing the racing held between the depression and the war by the Automobile Racing Club of America.
It was interesting, different to the Indianapolis and board-track stuff, more like Australian racing in that era, but with factory participation.
I'd like now to have this avenue explored properly, as we have a greater depth of members on the board than when I last mentioned this...
Please, those who know about it... let us all know.
I no longer have the book.

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#2 Barry Lake

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Posted 25 October 2000 - 12:11

Ray
I believe the book you refer to is:

American Road Racing John C Rueter 1963 A S Barnes & Co

A more recent one on a similar subject is:

American Road Racing The 1930s Joel E Finn 1995 Garnet Hill Publishing Company Inc


#3 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 October 2000 - 13:23

I can't be sure, Barry. I picked it up second hand, and I couldn't afford it, so I read it and onsold it to John Medley. The dustjacket, from memory, had a yellowish colour through it, and the pictures inside included the Willys team cars and cars at the World's Fair race. But I thought the title was close to or in keeping with the ARCA name.
The opening was about an event organised in the driveway of the Collier home.

#4 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 October 2000 - 10:36

Where are all the Yanks? I really thought, with all the really informative stuff that's been coming out lately, that there would be at least a trickle of information to this thread.
Don? Dennis? Come on folks, reveal all about this amateur racing scene that led to the post-war outbreak of road racing in the States...

#5 Don Capps

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Posted 26 October 2000 - 16:07

Actually, if I were to add anything to the (growing) pile of things to do, a look at "North American"/US road racing would have to be on the top of the pile along with a look at monoposto racing in the US -- Champ Cars, F5000, etc.

While at Watkins Glen I saw much that leads me to believe that these two need to be done. Indeed, I found race reports, photos, circuits maps, and so forth that really got my interest going especially since I recalled some of it, but there were races and so forth I had forgotten.

The book with the "yellowish" cover was the Rueter book. It was a very interesting book to me (I first read in high school) since I was amazed at all that actually went on back then. The Finn book is in the same format of the Dick Wallen books (don't drop it on your foot!).

While we Yanks get clobbered all the time, we have a rich and fabulous racing heritage that often gets lost in the shuffle by those on the various sides of the fences. These two projects are actually part of what could become a real hard look at racing in America (sic, US of A; although the spillover back & forth north and south of the border needs to be incorporated). There is certainly much that needs to be done and much that is pretty darn fascinating.

Too often folks get their noses out of joint about certain forms of racing and miss the point: racing and racers find a place to perform and worry about the other stuff later. To me, it is all pretty neat and interesting stuff.

Perhaps I lack the capability to rank order racing series that seems to be easy for many others, but Champ Car dirt races, German F2, the Monaco GP, the Southern 500, the 1952 Palm Springs races, the Tasman series, the Savannah Grand Prizes -- they're all the same to me: fascinating and interesting subjects as a historian. But, that's just me, I reckon.



#6 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 04:45

Any chance of putting a bit more life in this thread?

#7 Jim Thurman

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 06:52

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Any chance of putting a bit more life in this thread?


Ray, interestingly, I remember seeing and reading the same book at the Inglewood (California) Library, which was a veritable treasure trove of racing books. Louis Stanley "Grand Prix Year" both 1959 and 1960 and so many more from the late 50's/early 60's. My brother moved to the area later and went to a book sale at the library, but by that time, all the racing books were gone - to where, I don't know. I often wonder what became of them. Those books cemented my interest in racing history. Actually they took it to the next level.

The event at the Collier estate, I believe that would have been what they called the Sleepy Hollow Ring.

Amongst the many things I've yet found time to do is go through the archive and dredge up old topics that I might be able to add anything of note.


Jim Thurman

#8 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 07:05

Ray, old mate! What ya wont'a know? I have the book you passed on to John Medley. :)

#9 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 07:30

What I would like is to know more about the cars, especially the specials, the home made cars that the impecunious competitors ran...

And the circuits and events, the stories of the mayhem and fun they made and had.

Of course, the people, in all their variety...

#10 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 21:56

American Road Racing was written by John Rueter. He was a charter member of the ARCA (Automobile Racing Club of America). The 140-page booklet describes the ARCA staged events between 1934 and 1940 on 11 race circuits, 1 hill climb course and 4 rallies. I just do not have the time this month (finishing off my Hill Climb list) to pick the book apart and quote drivers, cars and circuits. But if you e-mail your address to me, I can send you something you might be interested in. :)

#11 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 00:43

Actually, Hans, I've read the book...

My hope here is that there will be additional information about the cars, drivers, circuits etc that can come to light...

Maybe pictures of some of the obscure cars, stories of exceptional performances now lost in the mists of time.

#12 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 03:11

The ARCA held their hill climbs on the old Mount Washington Carriage toll road (1935-1940), about 8 mi in length. The more popular name for this course, as Ray Bell already mentioned in the thread title, is Climb to the Clouds. It took place as early as 1899 and was the first American hill climb I have found in my search to include in the upcoming list.

This is about the extent of my participation in this thread since I am still engaged with my upcoming project. Besides what's in the book, I could not contribute anything meaningful.

#13 john medley

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 06:30

From Reuter's book but even more so Joel Finn's " American Road Racing : The 1930s" one gets a very strong impression of frightfully wealthy young Yale and Harvard graduates using various parts of Daddy's land to build roads to race on in the company of other well connected young chaps generally from the New York and Boston areas, using European sporting cars usually imported by other ( or the same ) well connected chaps from Good Families , most wearing a very English cravat as well as the astonishing bundle of ARCA regalia that this tiny group produced.( " Cravat flyers" was how the very down-to-earth George Reed described their Australian counterparts). The essential aim of being and appearing to be a very proper gentleman sportster was perhaps best exemplified by the one blackballed for abusive language directed at several of the other chaps not least the preparer of the expensive racing car blown up by mistreatment at the hands of he who was blackballed. Another chap was continually frowned upon and derided because his car and his clothing were not always as clean as the other chaps'. Many only dabbled , though there were some who clearly were very serious indeed about enjoying their amateur motorsport, some even venturing into professional arenas.
They used a fascinating collection of cars over the years -- some imported sports and racing cars , some local specials based on local cars/ some on imported cars, some local dealer specials, some local performance cars: there is a lovely photo in Joel Finn's book of Briggs Cunningham 1934 in a DO Hal dirt track car, looking oh so out of place among the generally European accented ARCA cars. I was intrigued to find here on TNF that one of the Willys "local dealer special" cars had later made its way all the way to South Africa.
Ray has already made reference to similarities between ARCA activities/cars/people and what was happening at the same time in places like Australia and South Africa. I too can see many of those similarities and therefore I wanted to know more about ARCA stuff, so I organized to get as a present from a group of people the expensive Joel Finn book. It probably has all you want, Ray -- but if you'd like more go to British Pathe files on the 'net and download film of Alexandria Bay 1937 and 1938 and the Worlds Fair event of 1940

#14 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 07:38

John...

I can just see and hear our mutual friend using those words, though with his shaky voice, I can also see me asking him to repeat it several times so that I could get the gist of what he was saying... so many times that I guess I'd lose the point of what he was saying!

But that aside, I'm certain there is much more to be known about this particular facet of what George calls 'car sport' than is contained in the books to which you and others refer.

When you consider, for instance, that the Specials that you have said were seen in Australia and South Africa were far more widespread than that, it takes on a greater importance.

Not long ago, for instance, somebody posted results of some race in Portugal which was littered with Ford V8s and other Specials... just the type of cars that made up the fields in Australia and South Africa, and in which Fangio learned his craft. It makes you somewhat more aware, therefore, that even the hallowed European scene wasn't restricted to the Bugattis and the Delages and the Alfa Romeos and so on... but that there were enthusiasts everywhere who were trying to get a bit of a foothold in racing however they could... and opportunistic (perhaps...) distributors everywhere keen to show off their wares in esteemed company.

While a notable distinction between the Australian scene and that of America was the lack of a feature event like the Indianapolis 500 and a heritage in board tracks that had built a wealth of knowledge and experience in oval-track racing, it's probably true that the numbers of people involved in what you term a 'tiny group' was not that dissimilar to the ranks that made up the numbers between Bathurst and Port Elliot. Of course, there was another bunch the other end of the continent, and only twice did that twain meet...

While we, of course, had a ready interchange of competitors between the dirt ovals and the dirt and bitumen road courses, this gulf in the USA was no doubt harder to bridge.

Perhaps that is why it was left to the wealthier ones, the ones whose fathers had those backyards or front yards, to get things rolling. But you note that there were others who attempted to join them... perhaps it's these who were the more interesting?

That's the point... here on TNF we can ask a question and, as you regularly remark, 'the incredible TNF strikes' again and again, answers come out of the woodwork. So why are we denied more knowledge of this colourful era in America?

Surely there are those posting here who have known people who were there? Maybe some had fathers or uncles who were involved... maybe they live in an area where they raced and have seen scrap books or heard tales of things that took place in that amateur era.

Briggs Cunningham's name emerges from the upper echelon of this group... yet even he stooped to running a Special in the Bu-Merc. Regardless of its heritage, it was a Special... and it raced against Specials, and I'd like to know more about them.

Shall I refer back to the words of Laurel Mountain? Describing what people did to create cars of this nature, she said, "They followed their dreams!" This woman watched her young husband build his second car from the ground up, she lovingly describes the chassis "rising to its wheels" as work progressed, she helped paint the tubes and went on a honeymoon centred on its second race meeting. She also waited for it to come around again on that fateful lap at Gnoo Blas... only to learn that she would be going home alone.

The emotions are all the same. The dreams were universal, the risks similar, the heroism identical. As they might have been within the works teams at Mercedes-Benz and Alfa Romeo, even if the scale was different.

Why should we disregard this dark corner of history in a setting where every chassis number is questioned, every driver's middle name explored, every result scrutinised to ensure that the lap count was correct?

Is it right that we expend limitless energies finding out what happened to a single European Championship point or despatch enquiry all over Europe to discover what make of wheel it was that captured a wayward scarf yet ignore what another bunch of enthusiasts were doing in another corner of the world.

These people paved the way for the success of the Argetsingers in the forties, the growth of the Hills, Gurneys, Gregorys and Mackay-Frasers of the fifties, the birth of the Eagle of the sixties and yet more.

Can we really go on ignoring them?

#15 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 August 2003 - 03:01

Originally posted elsewhere by Don Capps
The ARCA folks were deeply taken with the notion of road racing and the image of the gentleman racer. They devised tracks of varying lengths -- usually under a mile -- at such places as:

Overlook Estate, Pocantico Hills, NY -- Sleepy Hollow Ring
Wayland Mass -- Bemis Estate Eace Circuit
Briarcliff, NY -- Briarcliff Manor (Grand Prix of the United States of America)
Marston Mills, Mass
Memphis, Tenn -- Memphis Cotton Carnival Race (4.4 mi)
Alexandria Bay, NY
Westbury, NY -- Roosevelt Raceway
Montauk, NY -- Montauk Manor
Flushing Meadows -- World's Fair

While there were perhaps a great divide between the worlds of the ARCA gents and the AAA pros, they were both very similar -- they loved racing. And they saw the problem of fielding an entry merely something to be overcome, hence the specials they devised from whatever was at hand. And whether it was for a $5 trophy dash or a 50 cent trophy, they raced to the best extent of their abilities. More a case of different sides of the same coin than different worlds.

Let's not overlook that there were also road courses planned for Los Angeles, Dallas, and several other places during this period.....


So what do we know about these circuits?

#16 m.tanney

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Posted 05 August 2003 - 20:31

Originally posted by Ray Bell
So what do we know about these circuits?

  Allan Brown's The History of America's Speedways, Past and Present, gives the following information:

Sleepy Hollow Ring - Tarrytown (Pocantico Hills)/ located in a farmer's field. 3/4 mile dirt road course (7/08/34)(7/14/34)(7/29/34)/ had 10 corners
the sports cars were refered to as foreign midgets
these races were the first ARCA races/ later to become SCCA
the races were organized by Miles Collier, son of Barron Collier.

Wayland Circuit - Wayland - 1.0 mile dirt road course (10/07/34 - 11/17/35)

Briarcliff Manor - 3.17 mile city street road course (11/11/34 - c.6/23/35)
these races were run by the American Auto Racing Club.

Marstons Mills - paved city street road course (6/29/35)

Cotton Carnival Road Race - Memphis - 8.0 mile road course (May, 1936)

More to follow.

#17 Don Capps

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Posted 05 August 2003 - 20:46

Originally posted by Ray Bell
So what do we know about these circuits?


I have the circuit maps, but they haven't been scanned.

#18 m.tanney

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Posted 05 August 2003 - 21:08

Round the Houses Road Race - Alexandria Bay - city street road course (1936)
road course on city streets (8/07/37) / the race was 86.2 miles long
1.33 mile road course on city streets (8/06/38) / 60 lap race in 1938
road course on city streets (1939) / the race was 70.0 miles long.

  The Alexandria Bay races have always intrigued me. I always drive by A-Bay on my way to the Antique Raceboat Regatta at Clayton, NY. It is a resort town on the St. Lawrence river, which forms the border between the U.S. and Canada. The 1937-1939 races drew large numbers of Canadian spectators who crossed over on the newly-built Thousand Islands suspension bridge. I've wondered if the Alexandria Bay races might have attracted Canadian drivers, as the later Watkins Glen road races did. It's possible but, given the insular nature of the ARCA, it seems unlikely. I suppose that the answer might be found in Joel Finn's book but, unlike John Medley, I have yet to form a syndicate to finance its purchase.

More to follow

#19 m.tanney

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Posted 05 August 2003 - 21:28

More from Allan Brown:

Roosevelt Speedway - Westbury (Long Island) / (aka: Roosevelt Field)
4 mile paved road course (10/12/36) designers Art Pillsbury & Mark Linentral
this was the airfield Charles Lindberg took off from on flight to England (sic)
3.33 mile paved road course (7/05/37 - 1939) / George Robertson manager
ran the presigious "Vanderbilt Trophy" races on 10/12/36 & 7/05/37)
1.87 mile road course (Sept., 1937) / had 16 turns in 1936

Montauk Point - 2.0 mile road course (7/09/39) / around sand dunes
3.03 mile city street road course (7/06/40)

[B]New York World's Fair{/B] - Queens (Flushing) the last ARCA sports car events
3/4 mile paved road course (10/06/40) / circuit went throgh the fair

  BTW, the third edition of Allan Brown's remarkable book will be published this fall. Anyone with any interest in American racing of any kind should have a copy. There will be a great deal of new information which Brown has gathered since the last (1994) edition.

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#20 john medley

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Posted 05 August 2003 - 21:54

Not just the ( syndicate- bought !) book but the movie as well : If you go to www.britishpathe.com and hunt patiently enough ( I used " Car Races"/" Racing Cars " but " Alexandria Bay " would be better for this purpose ) you can find newsreel film of Alexandria Bay 1938 and 1939 , as well as other events like Worlds Fair and Vanderbilt Cup . What you can download is less than A1 quality but you still get quite a good picture of the event.

And , Mike , the Joel Finn book suggests that there were no Canadians , just all the usual ARCA suspects . In the photos wonderful stone buildings backdrop the cars . One photo of Lemuel Ladd's Ford V8 and Miles Collier's MG heading up Church Street hill is so similar to race streetscapes of Western Austalian 1930s towns that it reminds me of why Ray started this thread.

#21 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 August 2003 - 23:13

Originally posted by john medley
.....One photo of Lemuel Ladd's Ford V8 and Miles Collier's MG heading up Church Street hill is so similar to race streetscapes of Western Austalian 1930s towns that it reminds me of why Ray started this thread.


Know the pics you mean, John... at Albany, of course...

bairdalbany.jpg

Neil Baird and his Terraplane leading a bunch up from the bayside Customs Office and the huge crowd that was present at this first ever road race in WA, and IIRC, the first road race on the Australian mainland. Sorry, no, this was the 1937 event, not 1936.

albanyrosman.jpg

A closer look at the Customs Office, the rudimentary safety precautions, the huge crowd and the energetic antics of Rosman's 'riding mechanic' in his Ford V8 during the 1939 event.

But what of the cars they ran? Wasn't there an Austin 7 involved with the so aptly named 'Sleepy Hollow Ring'?

It all begins there, IIRC, but it grew and grew...

Edited by Ray Bell, 18 June 2020 - 04:07.


#22 Don Capps

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Posted 05 August 2003 - 23:23

Originally posted by Ray Bell
It all begins there, IIRC, but it grew and grew...


Were it all that simple......

#23 YankeeRacer

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 20:56

Don,

Have you had the chance to scan the circuit maps?

I received copies of articles on the Wayland Circuit races today. I also have inquired with the local historical society for more information. Does anyone have information on Marstons Mills, Wayland or ARCA in general? All I have to go off of is Brown's book for the most part.

#24 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 22:37

YankeeRacer, thanks for dredging up this old thread...

It would be good if you can get details of some of the cars too.

#25 Sunbeam74

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 01:39

If you check the VSCCA website gallery under Hunnewell Hillclimb you will see a few of the original cars that ran with ARCA.
(in some of the images you can see the "ARCA" club shield in the grille). There have been years where 5-6 of the original cars have shown up.

http://www.gullwings...indexevents.cfm

At the Hunnewell event typically you will see:
- The old Gray Mare (...needless to say the "Gray" special that was raced by John Rueter's and also Lem Ladd)
- at least two of the old MGTBs (green and red... I can't remember who owned this car in the day)
- A Bugatti which ran a Ford Model B motor (worn looking blue paint)
- George Rand's Ford-Amilcar (kind of a mustard colored)

Here's two of them:

http://www.gullwings...ImageNumber=354

There were a wide assortment of cars owned by ARCA members - pre-war Alfa's, Maserati's, etc. The Rueter book really is an excellent book to have on early American Road Racing.

Steve

Edited by Sunbeam74, 18 November 2009 - 01:42.


#26 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 02:37

Thanks for that... though my satellite connection will die if I have to go through all those pics to find the few I'd like to see...

The one of the Bugatti and the Ford Special was good. Fancy fitting an old flathead four into a Bug!

#27 Sunbeam74

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 03:21

Yes, unfortunately, there are a ton of images on one page. Ed started to make the groups smaller but still it takes a while to load the page.

Here's the Amilcar

http://www.gullwings...ImageNumber=764

Here's one of the TB's

http://www.gullwings...ImageNumber=738




#28 YankeeRacer

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 04:42

Ray, would it be OK to post the articles as a PDF?

#29 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 09:10

You mean to e.mail?

As long as file sizes for each e.mail don't exceed something like 3mb...

And also as long as it's in the next 24 hours. Otherwise I'll be on the road and they'll be a major problem when I get back home.

#30 YankeeRacer

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 01:18

Does anyone have the author or name of the book on the ARCA? I'd like to find a copy on Amazon or a library if possible.

-Nick
mod134@gmail.com

#31 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 01:37

It's all back there early in the thread... with later references...

The book to which I initially referred is:

American Road Racing; John C Rueter, 1963, A S Barnes & Co

Also getting a mention or two is:

American Road Racing, The 1930s; Joel E Finn, 1995, Garnet Hill Publishing Company Inc

Hope you enjoy them.

#32 scags

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 11:25

The Bugatti- ford is a regular at the Lime rock vintage- (I don't think there were two of them). Still racing.

#33 Ivan Saxton

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 17:46

I can't be sure, Barry. I picked it up second hand, and I couldn't afford it, so I read it and onsold it to John Medley. The dustjacket, from memory, had a yellowish colour through it, and the pictures inside included the Willys team cars and cars at the World's Fair race. But I thought the title was close to or in keeping with the ARCA name.
The opening was about an event organised in the driveway of the Collier home.

I am quite sure you can afford a copy Ray. Call me by phone, and I'll tell you how to get a good affordable copy. An advantage is not an advantage if everyone has it.
Ivan

#34 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 11:57

Thank you Ivan...

I'll be in touch in a week or two. In the meantime, I started this thread to drag out info about some of the lesser cars run in the racing of the ARCA.

So far I don't think very much has been uncovered!

#35 Ivan Saxton

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 20:33

Thank you Ivan...

I'll be in touch in a week or two. In the meantime, I started this thread to drag out info about some of the lesser cars run in the racing of the ARCA.

So far I don't think very much has been uncovered!


There is an article in Automobile Quarterley vol8 #3 on some racing at Watkins Glen and Bridgehampton by the same group which is likeley to be relevant. One car that was much bigger than most and apparently was not well adapted was a light -coloured BB Stutz Black Hawk driven by one Dudley Wilson. This one, recognisable by its very unusual Woodlite headlights, reappeared these many years later in the sale by Christies of Alex Kennedy Miller's estate in Vermont. A.K. claimed to own the Black Hawk from the 1928 Indianapolis match race with the special 8 litre Hispano, and he may have known. There were two in the sale, but he may have had and sold others; because he claimed to have as many as 60 Stutz cars around 1970, but there were less than half that number at the end. One of AKM's Black Hawks is in the Simeone Collection in PA. The Stutz might not have been well adapted to that racing, as the three speed gearbox would be far from ideal; and the axle ratio could have been anything. We obtained Timken drawings and had a batch of 4 to 1 worm/worm wheel sets made. The charts gave data for ratios ranging from 3 5/8 to beyond 5 to 1.

#36 Sunbeam74

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 01:17

Posted Image



Posted Image


#37 Sunbeam74

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 01:23

Posted Image


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#38 terry mcgrath

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 01:37

I would be very interested to find out more about who Dudley Wilson was and what business he was in.
Ideally if anyone knows of any family that would be fantastic
terry mcgrath

BB Stutz Black Hawk driven by one Dudley Wilson. This one, recognisable by its very unusual Woodlite headlights, reappeared these many years later in the sale by Christies of Alex Kennedy Miller's estate in Vermont.



#39 Sunbeam74

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 01:40

Briarcliff Trophy race, November 11, 1934

Posted Image


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#40 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 June 2020 - 04:28

A man can dream, right?

 

Some of the circuits mentioned in this thread can no doubt still be 'discovered' by an adventurous tourist, but only if the poor chap has a map by which he can find them.

 

In view of the fact that this 'adventurous tourist' is hoping to do another US trip some day, and that he needs those maps, and that he's got a good track record (pardon the pun, please) in that he's taken the time on previous trips to drive around Watkins Glen, both Elkhart Lake road courses and ventured to Savannah and driven around the roads of the circuits which existed there, would it be possible for some kind person to make available maps of:

 

Briarcliff Manor

 

Alexandria Bay

 

Montauk Point city street course

 

Marston Mills

 

Memphis

 

Not that this was the purpose of this thread, but that seems to have missed out all along the way.

 

To my horror I now learn I was only 50kms or so from Mt Washington on my first trip. I can find that by myself. But on checking the others it gets worse. I was within 25kms or so of each of them except Montauk Point. Well, probably that one too, but it's located somewhere I'd probably be unlikely to visit.

 

 

 

.


Edited by Ray Bell, 18 June 2020 - 04:45.