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WMSC hearing: Piquet's 2008 Singapore crash intentional?


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Poll: Flav, Pat or Piquet Jr? (490 member(s) have cast votes)

Someone must be telling the truth. Which one is it?

  1. Flavio- We never talked about it... (18 votes [3.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.63%

  2. Pat Symonds- We talked about it. It was Piquet's (88 votes [17.74%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.74%

  3. Nelsinho- We talked about it. It was their idea... (390 votes [78.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 78.63%

Vote

#6151 pgj

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 15:25

Of course there are grey areas, and degrees of penalties - you seem to see only light, no black, I also might add. A penalty of any kind doesn't mean "extinction". But I also want to add this: "The World Motor Sport Council considers Renault F1's breaches relating to the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix to be of unparalleled severity."

This was worse than ANYTHING - BAR fuel cell, Liegate, Spygate, MSc punting Villeneuve, ANYTHING. And there was NO penalty of any kind. They will only get a penalty "if Renault F1 is found guilty of a comparable breach" - which might be tough, since this one was of "unparalleled severity". They need to crash atleast one car...


I agree. This was more serious than Spygate. What we are talking about here is the degree of punishment. When McLaren was handed its punishment there was a different financial climate. McLaren's fine was manageable, as McLaren stated at the time.

Any kind of fine at the same level as McLaren's would cause Renault France to leave F1. It is in no kind of financial position to survive that kind of punishment. It is a fact of life that if Renault France pull out of F1 then Mecachrome Motorsports would probably fold. That was what I meant by extinction. Renault F1 would probably find another buyer. Renault has been rumoured to be wanting to get out of F1 team ownership for a while. Perhaps that was the cause of the rift between Flav and Renault France.

I am in the other camp to a black and white punishment. I believe that the punishment is proportionate to what Renault France could afford. The FIA stated that if Renault had not taken action then it would have levied a permanent ban from F1.

It is also worth pointing out that McLaren contested the FIA's action at its hearing. Renault did not fight the action. Leniency us usually given for a guilty plea.

I agree with what many are saying here. On the face of it there is a disparity between the punishments handed out for Crashgate and Spygate. However, on deeper examination the penalty is balanced imo.


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#6152 Chyp

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 15:27

If was Alonso and I really didn't know anything about the crash I would give up the win and hand the trophy back. Does he really want a win that he knows was obtained by cheating?

#6153 Diablobb81

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 15:29

pgj, problem is that there is no punishment for Renault.

Like stated, Renault as a team is less guilty than McLaren in Spygate. But that doesn't mean that they should escape without any punishment.

That's the second time in two serious cases (spygate 2 + Crashgate) when Renault is not punished because they admitted their guilt.

A punishment should also serve as a warning for teams to be carefull whom they employ.I don't think taking away their 2009 WDC points + a fine would have made Renault leave. Besides that, them leaving might be a moot point. Renault signed Concorde.

Edited by Diablobb81, 21 September 2009 - 15:33.


#6154 Slyder

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 15:31

If was Alonso and I really didn't know anything about the crash I would give up the win and hand the trophy back. Does he really want a win that he knows was obtained by cheating?


With the same coin, I'd doubt Alonso is stupid enough to talk himself out of a win.

Nobody in their sane mind could. There's a saying out there that "you shouldn't sin by being too honest."

#6155 Chyp

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 15:33

I think the penalty was fair here they punished the people directly responsible, Piquet seems to have gotten off lightly but that's not the case, he's ruined his chances of ever driving in F1 again and he's gonna have a hard time finding a drive in another series with this hanging over him.

I didn't think McLarens fine was fair, they should've punished Coughlin and Stepney but Ron Dennis wasn't to blame he was the victim in it all. The proof that he knew nothing was proved when Coughlins wife took the plans to be photocopied at a shop.

#6156 VresiBerba

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 15:34

I agree with the penalty that allows RenaultF1 to continue to run/can't give Renault an excuse to pull out of F1.

And what if it were Ferrari, they wouldn't pull out of the sport any more than McLaren did in 2007, would it be okay to penalise them? This is what I think is wrong. Penalising one team because 'they can take it' but not another because 'they'll just quit' is equally if not more corrupt than people think the FIA itself is. It stinks of back scratching and nepotism and I find it deplorable.

#6157 Chyp

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 15:37

With the same coin, I'd doubt Alonso is stupid enough to talk himself out of a win.

Nobody in their sane mind could. There's a saying out there that "you shouldn't sin by being too honest."


It's not a question of talking himself out of a win. It's now certain that the race was fixed by his own team and not only but could have had serious consequences if someone had go hurt in the stunt, the correct thing to do would be to say, I don't want anything to do with this.

#6158 Dragonfly

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 15:38

................
So it was "just" a personal vendetta after all where two idiots gave a third idiot a chance they should never have given him. That is my opinion.

And the whole thing stitched with white threads.
Mosley at his best.
:down:

#6159 Slyder

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 15:39

It's not a question of talking himself out of a win. It's now certain that the race was fixed by his own team and not only but could have had serious consequences if someone had go hurt in the stunt, the correct thing to do would be to say, I don't want anything to do with this.


Depends what price you're willing to pay for a win. Also, hindsight is 20/20, You can say that the crash could've been worse, but ultimately it wasn't, and in the end, you're the beneficiary. That's enough, walk away with the trophy and keep your mouth shut....

Edited by Slyder, 21 September 2009 - 15:39.


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#6160 jonpollak

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 15:42

A commercially influenced verdict
Jp

#6161 pgj

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 15:46

And what if it were Ferrari, they wouldn't pull out of the sport any more than McLaren did in 2007, would it be okay to penalise them? This is what I think is wrong. Penalising one team because 'they can take it' but not another because 'they'll just quit' is equally if not more corrupt than people think the FIA itself is. It stinks of back scratching and nepotism and I find it deplorable.


Renault was never a target in this investigation. If there was not a possibility of getting Briatore, this investigation would probably never have even started. This has nothing to do with nepotism. Score settling, maybe. Briatore is simply paying the price ofr banging the FOTA drum too close to Max.

#6162 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 15:46

A complete B/S judgement by the FIA. How on earth can they justify fining Mclaren $100 million and then let Renault off with just a 2 year suspended sentence. This just shows how corrupt the FIA are and how they govern. :down: Personally I didnt want to see Renault punished. But for the sake of credibility and to be seen as treating all the teams the same, Renault should have copped a big monetary fine. A fine of around $40 million would have sent out the right message to all the teams. This just shows how personal Mosleys vendetta against Ron Dennis was. The FIA/Mosely are rotten to the core! :cry: :up:

Edited by The Ragged Edge, 21 September 2009 - 15:48.


#6163 Bouncing Pink Ball

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 15:46

It's very, very rare for a competitor to directly implicate themselves or willingly turn down a win, regardless of how it came to them. When talking about the elite levels of sport, the money, pride and prestige involved is immense. Just look at these boards - you're only as good as you last win. There are strong motivating factors that keep mouths shut until someone is caught. Alonso just did what most anyone else in his shoes would have done.

Should he give it up now? PR wise, right now I'd say yes, it might be smart, but it's not required of him. Nothing has come out to name him as a cheater, just a beneficiary of another's plot. Sooner rather than later, this will all blow over and no one will care anymore.

#6164 pgj

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 15:48

A complete B/S judgement by the FIA. How on earth can they justify fining Mclaren $100 million and then let Renault off with just a 2 year susoended sentence. This just shows how corrupt the FIA are and how they govern. :down: Personally I didnt want to see Renault punished. But for the sake of credibility and to be seen as treating all the teams the same, Renault should have copped a big monetary fine. A fine of around $40 million would have sent ouit the right message. This just shows how personal Mosleys vendetta against Ron Dennis was. The FIA/Mosely are rotten to the core! :up:

No argument here.

#6165 Lazarus II

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 15:53

Renault got off using McLaren data and of course the dampers - hell McLaren should have just sold them those; at least they'd get something for that.
And now Renault gets off with race fixing.

What a bunch of crap :down:

#6166 Max!

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 15:57

And what if it were Ferrari, they wouldn't pull out of the sport any more than McLaren did in 2007, would it be okay to penalise them? This is what I think is wrong. Penalising one team because 'they can take it' but not another because 'they'll just quit' is equally if not more corrupt than people think the FIA itself is. It stinks of back scratching and nepotism and I find it deplorable.

I usually agree with your opinions but not in this case.
A) McLaren lied to the WMSC so a second session was needed after more investigation by the FIA
B) Renault immediately took measures and fired the persons involved
C) McLaren was full of people who were aware that they were working with stolen IP
D) Renaults case seems to be confined to three people
E) Renault pleaded guilty
F) Renault got a fine but by pleading guilty they could discuss the terms of it. A voluntary contribution to the road safety campaign sounds much better PR-wise but is hardly different to McLaren's fine which was also spend on the road safety campaign.


Conclusion: smarter people at Renault and not a corrupt organization but three individuals.

Edited by Max!, 21 September 2009 - 15:59.


#6167 primer

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 15:57

A commercially influenced verdict
Jp


I know there's a recession and all, but they couldn't fine Renault $1 million? With Mclaren-Mercedes Mosley had no problem looting $100 million....

#6168 F1Johnny

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 15:57

It's very, very rare for a competitor to directly implicate themselves or willingly turn down a win, regardless of how it came to them. When talking about the elite levels of sport, the money, pride and prestige involved is immense. Just look at these boards - you're only as good as you last win. There are strong motivating factors that keep mouths shut until someone is caught. Alonso just did what most anyone else in his shoes would have done.

Should he give it up now? PR wise, right now I'd say yes, it might be smart, but it's not required of him. Nothing has come out to name him as a cheater, just a beneficiary of another's plot. Sooner rather than later, this will all blow over and no one will care anymore.


He doesn't have to give it up, but a qualification of the "win" would be appropriate. I'm sure he is going to be asked this weekend and he will probably answer along the lines of:

"For sure (obligatory) it does not feel like my other wins and maybe it is somewhat tainted, but I had no input in the scheme and just drove really hard. I am very upset that I and Renault have been put in such an awkward situation"

That will satisfy most people.


#6169 mirfield

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 16:08

I guess FIA can justify the different punishments of Renault and McLaren with the statement issued today;

Renault were treated lightly as they were fully cooperative with the investigation and took responsibility.

McLaren's heavy punishment was perhaps for similar reasons to Briatore's

the World Motor Sport Council has had regard not only to the severity of the breach in which Mr. Briatore was complicit but also to his actions in continuing to deny his participation in the breach despite all the evidence.


So they can argue that they are being consistent.

#6170 pgj

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 16:09

I usually agree with your opinions but not in this case.
A) McLaren lied to the WMSC so a second session was needed after more investigation by the FIA
B) Renault immediately took measures and fired the persons involved
C) McLaren was full of people who were aware that they were working with stolen IP
D) Renaults case seems to be confined to three people
E) Renault pleaded guilty
F) Renault got a fine but by pleading guilty they could discuss the terms of it. A voluntary contribution to the road safety campaign sounds much better PR-wise but is hardly different to McLaren's fine which was also spend on the road safety campaign.


Conclusion: smarter people at Renault and not a corrupt organization but three individuals.

:up:

#6171 Rinehart

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 16:26

Well if anyone is in any doubt as to the reality of Max Mosleys personal crusade against Ron Dennis, see Crashgate and Flavio Briatores punishment for details.

As a measure of how corrupt the FIA are, this decsion has actually made me feel slightly sorry for Flavio Briatore!

John Howlett had better be prepared to don the gimp mask and brandish the whip, that's about the only punishment left for dodgy team bosses!

#6172 Monad

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 16:31

I guess FIA can justify the different punishments of Renault and McLaren with the statement issued today;

Renault were treated lightly as they were fully cooperative with the investigation and took responsibility.

McLaren's heavy punishment was perhaps for similar reasons to Briatore's



So they can argue that they are being consistent.



But we forget something here. The FIA didn't find new evidence at the Mclaren case and then discovered there lies. Ron himself called them and gave them the evidence along with the admission and firing the people responsible. So it's not that different.

Also let's not forget that in the Mclaren case, the first time, the FIA actually didn't had any evidence to judge them on so they could afford to lie and get away with it and they knew it. But in this case the FIA had evidence(telemetry) and after the leak to the press Renault knew it also. So they knew they couldn't get away with it. So it's not like they turned honest out of the blue. They were just lucky enough to learn before hand that they wouldn't have won if they said they were innocent.
Something that makes the " untraceable leak" even more suspicious. I can imagine Mosley calling the coffee boy and telling him to go give some documents to that reporter outside that building, so that he will inform Renault that the FIA can nail there ass and making them plead guilty so they can get away with it with a nice excuse like they did.

Edited by Monad, 21 September 2009 - 16:33.


#6173 Guest_4L3X_*

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 16:46

I usually agree with your opinions but not in this case.
A) McLaren lied to the WMSC so a second session was needed after more investigation by the FIA
B) Renault immediately took measures and fired the persons involved
C) McLaren was full of people who were aware that they were working with stolen IP
D) Renaults case seems to be confined to three people
E) Renault pleaded guilty
F) Renault got a fine but by pleading guilty they could discuss the terms of it. A voluntary contribution to the road safety campaign sounds much better PR-wise but is hardly different to McLaren's fine which was also spend on the road safety campaign.


Conclusion: smarter people at Renault and not a corrupt organization but three individuals.


Exactly.

How long did it take for McLaren to fire Coughlan?

#6174 craftverk

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 16:49

I usually agree with your opinions but not in this case.
A) McLaren lied to the WMSC so a second session was needed after more investigation by the FIA
B) Renault immediately took measures and fired the persons involved
C) McLaren was full of people who were aware that they were working with stolen IP
D) Renaults case seems to be confined to three people
E) Renault pleaded guilty
F) Renault got a fine but by pleading guilty they could discuss the terms of it. A voluntary contribution to the road safety campaign sounds much better PR-wise but is hardly different to McLaren's fine which was also spend on the road safety campaign.


Conclusion: smarter people at Renault and not a corrupt organization but three individuals.

A dangerous precident if you ask me

#6175 Orin

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 17:07

I usually agree with your opinions but not in this case.
A) McLaren lied to the WMSC so a second session was needed after more investigation by the FIA
B) Renault immediately took measures and fired the persons involved
C) McLaren was full of people who were aware that they were working with stolen IP
D) Renaults case seems to be confined to three people
E) Renault pleaded guilty
F) Renault got a fine but by pleading guilty they could discuss the terms of it. A voluntary contribution to the road safety campaign sounds much better PR-wise but is hardly different to McLaren's fine which was also spend on the road safety campaign.


Conclusion: smarter people at Renault and not a corrupt organization but three individuals.



The difference is also that Mosley was like a dog with a bone with McLaren - there was no way he'd have been satisfied with voluntary contributions.

#6176 FlatOverCrest

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 17:17

Agreed.... I suspect a fine and a suspended ban....
Which results in Renault selling the team...but possibly carrying on as an engine supplier.....
Bring on Aston Martin F1..... :D


Well.......I suspected it may happen....but I am truly disgusted yet again with this group of morons at the FIA. Please for the love of god, let Ari get elected as new FIA President. This current cabinet has all the sleaze of a Mosely midnight romp in jack boots with whips...

I still cannot believe that slimey little "expletive here" NPJ got to walk away from this without so much as a slap on the wrist and was even thanked.....

If I was in McLaren right now, I would be spitting fire at the apparent double standards being deployed.

Possibly the darkest and lowest point for this Mosely led gang of "appropirate descriptions of said MM cronies here!"

DISGRACEFUL!!!

I now hope the second part of my prediction comes true and the Renault team is sold and we can get the Aston Martin badge into F1....

Edited by FlatOverCrest, 21 September 2009 - 18:06.


#6177 JPW

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 17:32

I still cannot believe that slimey little w@nker NPJ got to walk away from this without so much as a slap on the wrist and was even thanked.....

Maybe then you should look up the definition of immunity.

If I was in McLaren right now, I would be spitting fire at the apparent double standards being deployed.

Macca will keep quiet they know first hand what can happen if you take on the FIA.
Furthermore there's no reason for them to be upset different offence+different circumstances+different attitude by the culprit make for a different punishment.

Possibly the darkest and lowest point for this Mosely led gang of thieves, douchebags and self rightious a$$holes!

DISGRACEFUL!!!

Ohh my thieves, douchebags, self rightious a$$holes, big fonts and the occasional w@anker :rolleyes:

I now hope the second part of my prediction comes true and the Renault team is sold and we can get the Aston Martin badge into F1....

I think uncle Dave wants to run a McLaren B team and not Renaults rebranded Aston Martin but one can dream and indeed it would be great to see Aston Martin in F1.

#6178 craftverk

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 17:38

I mean this really goes to show that the FIA don't conduct themselves professionally at all.... it's all too personal.

#6179 FlatOverCrest

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 17:40

Maybe then you should look up the definition of immunity.
Macca will keep quiet they know first hand what can happen if you take on the FIA.
Furthermore there's no reason for them to be upset different offence+different circumstances+different attitude by the culprit make for a different punishment.
Ohh my thieves, douchebags, self rightious a$$holes, big fonts and the occasional w@anker :rolleyes:
I think uncle Dave wants to run a McLaren B team and not Renaults rebranded Aston Martin but one can dream and indeed it would be great to see Aston Martin in F1.


Ahhhh yes JPW in his "I'll tell you how to behave and conduct yourself mode again". I tried to tell you what I thought about your views to me on this last time you had a snied little attack, but you turned off your PM's so spare me the attacks yet again.

The verdict is a disgrace, on all counts and basically sets the precedent for the future.

Edited by FlatOverCrest, 21 September 2009 - 17:41.


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#6180 cheapracer

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 17:45

Maybe then you should look up the definition of immunity.

Ohh my thieves, douchebags, self rightious a$$holes, big fonts and the occasional w@anker :rolleyes:



I yell at stupid Chinese people occasionally and my lady says I'm wasting my breath because I can't change a billion of them - I draw similar conclusions to this thread.

Theres a large % of the white sheet and torch brigade here that have '09 join dates.



#6181 JPW

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 17:50

The verdict is a disgrace, on all counts and basically sets the precedent for the future.

Hmmm I think the verdict was very well balanced and took into account the positive attitude of the team (or better Renault) after they had been found out, the current economic climate and the current situation in F1.

Maybe a ceremonial race ban for the 2009 Singapore GP would have been in order imo.
So almost full points in my book.

BTW can one set precedent for anything other than the future?



#6182 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 17:53

Well.......I suspected it may happen....but I am truly disgusted yet again with this group of morons at the FIA. Please for the love of god, let Ari get elected as new FIA President. This current cabinet has all the sleaze of a Mosely midnight romp in jack boots with whips...

I still cannot believe that slimey little w@nker NPJ got to walk away from this without so much as a slap on the wrist and was even thanked.....

If I was in McLaren right now, I would be spitting fire at the apparent double standards being deployed.

Possibly the darkest and lowest point for this Mosely led gang of thieves, douchebags and self rightious a$$holes!

DISGRACEFUL!!!

I now hope the second part of my prediction comes true and the Renault team is sold and we can get the Aston Martin badge into F1....


This is the same standard as the 'punishment' that McLaren received for Liegate.

In that case McLaren was given a one-year suspended racing ban and had to give up Ron Dennis to protect LH and the team. In this case Renault received a two-year suspended racing ban and had to give up Flavio in order to protect Alonso and the team.

Same standard. Both cases should have resulted in actual race bans and /or a huge fine a la Spygate but then the FIA(Mosley&co) couldn't have it's fun and settle the score with RD and Flav.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 21 September 2009 - 17:58.


#6183 FlatOverCrest

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 17:55

I yell at stupid Chinese people occasionally and my lady says I'm wasting my breath because I can't change a billion of them - I draw similar conclusions to this thread.
Theres a large % of the white sheet and torch brigade here that have '09 join dates.


Cheap...
Every now and then...people need to vent and this mornings verdict, I have received emails from mates VENTING like you wouldnt believe....was the language apprpriate for here...probably not an for that I apologise.... I have edited my post accordingly.

As to join dates.... in light of your signature and your 07 join date, I think it is fair to say that join dates really dont mean a thing, do they?

Edited by FlatOverCrest, 21 September 2009 - 18:06.


#6184 FlatOverCrest

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 17:57

Same standard. Both cases should have resulted in actual race bans and /or huge fines a la Spygate but then the FIA(Mosley&co) couldn't have it's fun and settle the score with RD and Flav.


^^^^^^
Absolutely...which is why I cannot wait to see the back of MM and his gang of cronies. It is time for a clean sweep of the yard in Paris and the trash needs to be put out....

The problem is, the garbage is going to ensure the new broom has no chance to get in and the recycled garbage takes over.

#6185 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 18:05

^^^^^^
Absolutely...which is why I cannot wait to see the back of MM and his gang of cronies. It is time for a clean sweep of the yard in Paris and the trash needs to be put out....

The problem is, the garbage is going to ensure the new broom has no chance to get in and the recycled garbage takes over.


But the benefit is that F1 is getting cleaned up - RD is gone, Mosley is going, Flavio is gone. Only Bernie is left hanging around.

#6186 FlatOverCrest

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 18:08

But the benefit is that F1 is getting cleaned up - RD is gone, Mosley is going, Flavio is gone. Only Bernie is left hanging around.


:up: wow, someone actually found something good to come from this whole episode... thats no mean feat!

Congrats and I agree.... but there is one particular individual who got away scot free on this and THAT is still a disgrace....

#6187 JPW

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 18:17

But the benefit is that F1 is getting cleaned up - RD is gone, Mosley is going, Flavio is gone. Only Bernie is left hanging around.

While I'm also kinda glad that Ronzo and Flavio are gone, I don't think we've seen the last of Max.

He'll take up his seat in the FIA Senate after the election and if Jean Todt wins the election that will be a Senate with an even bigger mandate.

#6188 Villes Gilleneuve

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 18:17

But the benefit is that F1 is getting cleaned up - RD is gone, Mosley is going, Flavio is gone. Only Bernie is left hanging around.


As long as Montezemolo and Ferrari are around, you can be assured that manipulation of F1 will continue.

#6189 Owen

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 20:02

Should we, could we get this thread closed now?

#6190 Demo.

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 02:21

It just a bit of sensationlism by the papers.



really perhaps you should also listern to BBC news too as the chairman of the FA is looking into the case due to the FA having rules that state if a person is banned by any sporting body that person cannot be a director/owner of an FA registerd football team.

#6191 mel

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 08:26

Gone off topic and deteriorated. So closed by me. Feel free to start new threads. Thank you.