31 replies to this topic

[Andre Acker]

Hi,

In "Scarlet Passion" book (Anthony Pritchard), about Ferrari racing cars, it is said that Andretti raced the CanAm 712 car in Bermudas or Bahamas in the end of 1971.

Also in the same book, about the 312pb (3L. car) Forghieri relates some tests in South Africa (Kyalami) before the 1971 season, so in the end of 1970 or beginning of 1971.

Does anybody have photos of the cars in these two ocasions ?

Any other information about the subject ?

Maybe in some old AutoSprint magazines ...

Many thanks, best regards.

André Acker.

[RA Historian]

In "Scarlet Passion" book (Anthony Pritchard), about Ferrari racing cars, it is said that Andretti raced the CanAm 712 car in Bermudas or Bahamas in the end of 1971.

A good trick, as the last (Nassau) Bahamas Speed Week was in December, 1966. There was a largely FV event at Freeport in Dec. 1967, but as far as I can recall, that was the last racing of any significance in the Bahamas.

The chassis was #1010, originally a 512-S, converted to the 712 Can Am in 1971. Mario drove it but once, that being the Watkins Glen Can Am in 1971.

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 03 September 2009 - 17:54.

[Andre Acker]

Hi Tom,

Yes, that book information seems odd.

Anyway, lets wait for some help here ...

André Acker.

[Bruno]

25/7/1971 Watkins Glen (serie Canam) Mario Andretti 712 P "1010" n° 50 4em





I see in my archives AutoSprint

[Andre Acker]

Bruno,

Thanks for your help.

I know these photos but they are from the Watkins Glen CanAm race.

Consulting the "Scarlet Passion" book :

Page 152 - "Andretti did appear again with the 712P, in the 168 mile (270 km) STP Challenge Trophy, a Formula Libre race, held at Kindley Field, Bermuda, on 19 December. He qualified eight in a very mixed field, but the Ferrari's throttle stuck open at the first corner on the first lap and he collided with Motschenbacher (McLaren M8D CanAm car), putting both cars out of the race."

About the 312PB, same book, page 232 (interview with Mauro Forghieri):

"We designed the 312PB in a very short time, using the Formula 1 flat 12 engine just as it was. .......... We built a car that was an exact copy of the Formula 1 car apart from the bodywork and before Christmas 1970 we took it for testing at Kyalami and, if I remember rightly, we spent two weeks in South Africa".

So these are the "dates" : December 19th 1971 for the 712P and December 1970 for the 312PB.

Any help ?

André Acker.

[longhorn]

According to Ferrari - the Sports & GT Cars by Fitzgerald, Merritt & Thompson, the 712 was new car based on a 512M chassis, which despite it's 4th place in Andretti's hands at Watkins Glen, did not have the promise to merit further development and was not seen again in 1971. Jarier competed in it for NART in 1972 after it was turned down by Posey as being uncompetitive.

[RA Historian]

Consulting the "Scarlet Passion" book :

Page 152 - "Andretti did appear again with the 712P, in the 168 mile (270 km) STP Challenge Trophy, a Formula Libre race, held at Kindley Field, Bermuda, on 19 December. He qualified eight in a very mixed field, but the Ferrari's throttle stuck open at the first corner on the first lap and he collided with Motschenbacher (McLaren M8D CanAm car), putting both cars out of the race."

So these are the "dates" : December 19th 1971 for the 712P and December 1970 for the 312PB.

I have to question that. I have never heard of such an event and have never seen any reference to such an event. Ever. Further, all records I have ever seen giving a race-by-race history of the 712, chassis #1010, never show such an event. Further yet, a look at the race-by-race history of Mario Andretti, showing every race he ever ran, does not show such an event.

Barring evidence to the contrary, I have to say that this event never happened.

Tom

[Cynic2]

The 712 CanAm car chassis 1010 was the second 712 CanAm car. The earlier car, chassis 0866, was driven by Chris Amon in two races in 1969, Riverside and Texas International. This was the high-wing car.

I have no reason to believe that Mario Andretti drove this car, much less in 1971 in Bermuda, but at least is does provide another possibility for a "712 CanAm" Ferrari.

(This car still exists today, in its later, modified form, fitted with a five-liter engine.)

[Tim Murray]

This Bermuda race was a spoof event invented by Autosport, referred to many times on this forum:

Bill's Lola 227 story (he had me going at first) reminded me of a report of an imaginary race in, I think, Bermuda that was published in the Christmas edition of Motoring News in 1970 or 1971. A Formula Libre event, it featured a number of interesting cars and stars combinations. The only one I can remember was Gijs Van Lennep driving a March 701 that had been adapted to take a DAF-type CVT transmission. It was fitted with a Cosworth DFW rather than the normal; DFV, as the transmission apparantly "could not handle the DFV torque". Anyone else remember this "race"?

It was in Autosport, in Bermuda, it featured a cast of real drivers including Cyd Williams, Peter Revson, Mark Donohue &c (some of whom ended up in the drink - there was a narrow bridge over a waterway), the Governor-General (Sir Nicholas Ponsonby?) taking part with an artificial foot IIRC, a car made out of flotsam (retired when it ran out of fuel - no fuel cans large enough had been washed up - there was a pic of this!) and a Harley Davidson invited to enter by mistake (the rider threatened to sue when he was excluded so they ordered him to fit stabilizers to turn it into a 'car').

[Andre Acker]

I found that information in the book very strange, as the car was sent back to Italy after the Watkins Glen race and I never heard about car races in Bermuda.

If it is the case, I wonder how Mr. Pritchard could be caught in such a ridiculous situation ...

Now, about the 312 PB tests, any information / photos ?
Who were the drivers etc ?

Best regards.

André Acker.

[RA Historian]

The 712 CanAm car chassis 1010 was the second 712 CanAm car. The earlier car, chassis 0866, was driven by Chris Amon in two races in 1969, Riverside and Texas International. This was the high-wing car.

Actually, the car driven by Chris Amon in 1969 was the 612. It was powered by a V-12 of somewhat over six liters in displacement. It was built in 1968 and ran once at the end of that season. It was modified with high wing, etc., for 1969 and ran in most of the season's Can Am races. At the end of the season it had a 7.0 V-12 installed. It may have been referred to as a 712 at that juncture, but it was not the 712. It was the 612 with the 712 engine. There only was one true 712, which was built up from a much modified 512-S chassis. The car passed on to Steve Earle and Chris Cord without the big engine. They put a 5.0 unit in it and it was driven by Jim Adams. I last saw this car in the mid nineties, owned by Robert Dusek IIRC.
Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 04 September 2009 - 21:35.

[RA Historian]

This Bermuda race was a spoof event invented by Autosport, referred to many times on this forum:

That clears that up. As Andre mentions, how in the world did Pritchard not only swallow the bait, but then proceed to print it in his book as fact? Not having read the book, I can only surmise that perhaps somewhere in the text he mentioned that it was a spoof but that may have been buried away somewhere.
Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 04 September 2009 - 21:41.

[Bruno]

december 1970 Le Castelet (France) test 312 P Boxer and 312 B drivers, Peter Schetty (in Car 312 P Boxer) Ickx, Regazzoni

http://i493.photobuc...r312B-essai.jpg


for races in Bermuda. ???? never

[Andre Acker]

Thank you all for your help !

Bruno, that's an interesting photo !

Tom, there is nothing more in the book about the "Bermuda Race" !

Best regards.

André Acker.

[Andre Acker]

Visiting "Motorbooks" in London, I had the opportunity to see this Bermuda race report in an Autosport magazine.
It was a December 1971 or January 1972 issue. The cover, if I remember it well, has a BRM P160 photo, in Marlboro colors, with Peter Gethin at the wheel. The photo is from the BRM team presentation at Paul Ricard.

The race report has even some photos ("strange" photos, I must say ...).

Does anybody has this Autosport issue and can scan the race report ?

Best regards.

André Acker.

Edited by Andre Acker, 12 December 2009 - 10:49.

[Cam2InfoNeeded]

Bruno,

You beat me to it posting that photo. I ran across the site a few days ago with that photo and many other interesting photos I've never seen before, not just Ferrari's but lots of other sports/prototype cars (like the 956 when it still had the NACA ducts to the side radiators).



http://images.google...t...N&start=420.



PS Quick shameless plug for more 917/30 Cam2 photos, especially at Daytona, and the intercoolers from the front side (nearest driver). Thanks

[Milan Fistonic]

The Kyalami test took place during the week prior to the GP on March 6 1971.

The new Ferrari, described in Motoring News as the 312B/2; wedge shaped and running a roller main bearing crank flat 12 engine, arrived on Wednesday.

Clay Regazzoni managed a 1m 19.6s lap on his first outing at Kyalami.

On Thursday morning he was trying out some new Firestone compounds and lapped in 1m 19.9s.

In the afternoon he was out again, this time with Lockheed brakes instead on Girlings, anf turned a lap in 1m 19.6s.

It all went wrong on Friday morning when after just three laps Regazzoni lost the Ferrari in Sunset Bend, hit the earth bank halfway down the short straight and ended up at Clubhouse minus the radiator and a front wheel. The car was a write-off.

[Andre Acker]

Bruno,

You beat me to it posting that photo. I ran across the site a few days ago with that photo and many other interesting photos I've never seen before, not just Ferrari's but lots of other sports/prototype cars (like the 956 when it still had the NACA ducts to the side radiators).



http://images.google...t...N&start=420.



PS Quick shameless plug for more 917/30 Cam2 photos, especially at Daytona, and the intercoolers from the front side (nearest driver). Thanks

Thanks for the link !
Many "unknown" photos there !

André Acker.

[Andre Acker]

The Kyalami test took place during the week prior to the GP on March 6 1971.

The new Ferrari, described in Motoring News as the 312B/2; wedge shaped and running a roller main bearing crank flat 12 engine, arrived on Wednesday.

Clay Regazzoni managed a 1m 19.6s lap on his first outing at Kyalami.

On Thursday morning he was trying out some new Firestone compounds and lapped in 1m 19.9s.

In the afternoon he was out again, this time with Lockheed brakes instead on Girlings, anf turned a lap in 1m 19.6s.

It all went wrong on Friday morning when after just three laps Regazzoni lost the Ferrari in Sunset Bend, hit the earth bank halfway down the short straight and ended up at Clubhouse minus the radiator and a front wheel. The car was a write-off.

Milan,

This Ferrari 312 (b2) that you mention is the F1 car.

I am talking about the 1971 SP car ...

Anyway, thanks for trying.

André Acker.

[AllTwelve]

Actually, the car driven by Chris Amon in 1969 was the 612. It was powered by a V-12 of somewhat over six liters in displacement. It was built in 1968 and ran once at the end of that season. It was modified with high wing, etc., for 1969 and ran in most of the season's Can Am races. At the end of the season it had a 7.0 V-12 installed. It may have been referred to as a 712 at that juncture, but it was not the 712. It was the 612 with the 712 engine. There only was one true 712, which was built up from a much modified 512-S chassis. The car passed on to Steve Earle and Chris Cord without the big engine. They put a 5.0 unit in it and it was driven by Jim Adams. I last saw this car in the mid nineties, owned by Robert Dusek IIRC.
Tom

... so is the 712 in this YouTube actually a 5 liter lump?

Edited by AllTwelve, 11 December 2009 - 21:42.

[Andre Acker]

... so is the 712 in this YouTube actually a 5 liter lump?

Hi AllTwelve,

The Ferrari in the youtube film is the 712 from 1971, the one that used a 7 liters motor.

I do not know if the motor is still the same, but the 1971 car used the biggest Ferrari motor ever.

Best regards.

André Acker.

[David Manton]

... so is the 712 in this YouTube actually a 5 liter lump?

No. The YouTube car pictured is the ex-Mario Andretti 712 Can-Am car from 1971 and runs a 7-litre engine. The earlier Chris-Amon Ferrari 612 car ran with both 6.2 and 6.9 litre engines during the 1968 and 1969 Can-Am seasons and the engine was replaced by the factory with a 5-litre before being sold to Steve Earle and Chris Cord for the 1970 and 1971 Can-Am seasons.
The 612 is the magnificent car that's been owned by Bob Dusek of Pennsylvania for almost three decades.

[Tony Matthews]

This Ferrari 312 (b2) that you mention is the F1 car.

And I think this is it...


Copyright TM

Edited by Tony Matthews, 12 December 2009 - 01:02.

[RA Historian]

Just a note of clarification to eliminate a possible faulty antecedent in my post extracted by Alltwelve. The 712 of 1971 always had the seven liter engine. The 612 of 1969 was sold on without the big engine and was run with a five liter unit. David in post 22 above explains it.
Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 12 December 2009 - 01:01.

[jj2728]

And I think this is it...


Copyright TM

is the guy on the left zipping up?......

[Tony Matthews]

is the guy on the left zipping up?......

The guy is Ronnie Peterson, as you no doubt realised. There is a story that I cannot divulge, at this moment at least...

[AllTwelve]

I'm delighted to hear that the 712 in the YouTube did indeed have a 7 liter unit. As a longtime lover of the sound of 3 liter V12s like the Ferraris and Matra, the sound of that 712 is so intense and raw, that I almost like it the best!
AT

[Andre Acker]

Visiting "Motorbooks" in London, I had the opportunity to see this Bermuda race report in an Autosport magazine.
It was a December 1971 or January 1972 issue. The cover, if I remember it well, has a BRM P160 photo, in Marlboro colors, with Peter Gethin at the wheel. The photo is from the BRM team presentation at Paul Ricard.

The race report has even some photos ("strange" photos, I must say ...).

Does anybody has this Autosport issue and can scan the race report ?

Best regards.

André Acker.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Returning to the main subject ...

Does anybody have this Autosport magazine issue ?

Best regards !

André Acker.

[bradbury west]

Andre, many apologies for the delay in responding to your original post query. I have the magazine, 4 pages of race report. Please PM me with your e mail address.
Roger Lund

[Andre Acker]

Hi Roger !

I've sent the PM !

Best regards.

André Acker.

[bradbury west]

Andre, they are on their way now.
Roger

[Andre Acker]

Thanks, Roger !

The details of the "Bermuda Race" are very funny !
Consider the entry : Reutemann in a Berta, Steve McQueen in a Chaparral 2J, Peterson in a March 711 ... Offy !
And Andretti in the Ferrari 712, something confirmed by ... Anthony Pritchard in his book !

I wonder how many other inaccurate details and information there are in these books ...

André Acker.