43 replies to this topic

[b3nster]

I am in a debate with my roommate about F1 drivers being in shape. He admits they need to be in great shape, but he fails to see how it can be compared to pro baseball or NFL players. Does anyone have any facts (impressive ones preferred) that I can use in my argument that F1 drivers are among the world's best in terms of shape?

[MacFan]

In a race, the drivers heart beat will be at or close to its maximum for up to 2 hours, while contending with cornering and braking forces of up to 4G, and cockpit temperatures sometimes exceeding 50C. One of your baseball or NFL players, used to their short bursts of activity, would probably collapse if they had to do that without first achieving the necessary fitness.

BTW I think the only athletes who are fitter than F1 drivers are tour cyclists and cross-country skiers.

[Ross Stonefeld]

While I agree that racing drivers need tremendous fitness, I dont consider them (or myself) atheletes.

I've got a certain amount of balance, reflexes etc. A certain natural speed. I need to keep the minimum amount of fitness so I dont get worn out driving the car (whatever the climate). It's more a concentration thing. If you get tired you make mistakes. Hitting the gym more than that basic need wont make me any faster.

Ever wonder why you sometimes get tired just driving down the highway for several hours? It's because it requires a fair bit of concentrating. At least when you drive like I do....

[Hooster]

What type of racing are you in Ross and how do you define an athlete?

I would call anyone who participates in a sport that pushes the mind and body to the extremes (MacFan posted a usefull explanation above) that F1 does an athlete.

[MacFan]

Ross, Senna was like you in that respect - he arrived in F1 with a minimal fitness level, and found it physically very hard in his first year. He attacked his fitness with the single minded approach he took to his racing, and subsequently became one of the fittest drivers. Martin Brundle also commented, while he was still racing in F1, that if he knew when he was racing in junior formulae what he knew now about fitness, he would have been a better and more succesful driver for it.

Without having driven an F1 car, or anything capable of generating huge cornering forces, I believe the problem comes when you step into an F1 car from something like an F3, and suddenly your body weighs 4 times its normal weight when cornering. Also, most formulae below F3000 don't race for more than about 15 minutes, whereas F1 races can last 2 hours. You also have a big powerful engine basicallay strapped to your back, and with them running hotter these days to use smaller radiators, there's a fair amount of heat soak into the cockpit.

In a nutshell, a driver may be able to make it to the fringes of F1 without being an athlete, but he is unlikely to win the WDC without becoming one.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I dont really have a definition of athletecism. I base my F1 opinion based on what I've done. When I get to F1 I will update my theory

I consider racing to be a skill that at certain levels requires a conditioning to achieve peak performance.

Would playing chess while on a stationary bike be an atheletic event?

[Chris Moellering]

An F1 driver can loose up to 2kg in a race. (mostly water.) Compare that with a World-class tennis player who typically looses about 1kg in the course of a match.

Also, the G-forces are an issue. Your body had to be in good shape to take that kind of abuse. Imagine riding a killer rollercoaster for 90 minutes, non-stop. Then doubel or triple the effect on your body. Couch potatoes need not apply.

More argument fodder--MS's resting heart rate is about 40 bpm. That's a sign of incredible cardio-vascular fitness.

[neoplanet]

The F1 drivers may not have models cut bodies but they have strenght and stamina to handle heat, fatigue and concentration in races.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Yeah, senna was exhausted early on. Thats not what I consider minimum. Minimum to me is Schumacher getting out of the car looking like he's just had a fresh blow dry. Anything more than that wont make him any faster.

*edit*

then again, there is the whole weight aspect[p][Edited by Ross Stonefeld on 10-26-2000]

[neoplanet]

Hey Ross

How fit do you have to be to drive in your formula?

[MattPete]

Originally posted by b3nster
I am in a debate with my roommate about F1 drivers being in shape. He admits they need to be in great shape, but he fails to see how it can be compared to pro baseball or NFL players.

-----

Weight lifters and runners are athletes: how well they do in their sports is completely correlated with their physical fitness (appropriate for the sport).

At the other end of the spectrum we have sports (and games) that require more skill than physical prowress. These include archery, darts, billiards, golf, and baseball.

In the middle, we have sports (and games) that are semi-dependent on physical attributes. These include F1 and [American] football. Being the strongest linebacker in the league sure as hell won't make you the best linebacker. But if you are out of shape, you are dead meat. The same thing holds for CART and F1. You *must* be in good physical condition, but anything beyond that will not help you succeed.

Here's a question for your friend: why is an American football player an athlete? Surely you don't need to be in good condition to throw a football accurately. And baseball? Until the recent switch to weight lifting to produce power hitters, they were flabbier than your average Joe.

[MacFan]

MattPete, I am sure the likes of Schumacher and Coulthard will be relieved to know they can stop spending hours in the gym every day, as it will not help them in F1

[b3nster]

I would consider American footballers and baseball players to be athletes for these reasons. Football players have to usually combine unusually strength with agility, balance and speed. To be able to run quickly is not impressive, but to be able to run quickly weighing 300 pounds is.
In the same respect, baseball players are most certainly athletes. Like in F1, it is a mixture of fitness and skill, largely relying on reflexes. It takes excellent reflexes to hit a fastball square-on. Also, it requires strength and speed, as evidenced by some of the brilliant throws shortstops can make while still on the ground having recovered a fair ball. Lastly, I find it goes without saying that it takes strenth, focus and concentration to through a baseball at the exact speed and location you intend to, especially when it is over 100 mph.

[Pete Stanley]

If you believe David Wells (P - Toronto) is more fit than ANY F1, CART, F3000, F3, or even NASCAR driver, I'd like to see your room mates back it up!

[Sean L]

Just something interesting to back up your arguement.

In the late 70's one of the drivers ran the Boston Matrathon (possibly Jody Scheckter) at the end of the season and finished only a few minutes behind the winner in a top 10 position.

I've heard that Jarno Trulli also competes in marathons. Inside sources say that he and Michael Schumacher are the two fittest guys in F1.

BTW, we've done this debate a few times over the past year. I'm sure you could find more on the subject if you search the archives ;)

Chris Moellering:
More argument fodder--MS's resting heart rate is about 40 bpm. That's a sign of incredible cardio-vascular fitness.

That's about average for an athlete. Top cyclists are in the low 30's while Miguel Indurain was measured at 28.

[Finntastic]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by b3nster
I am in a debate with my roommate about F1 drivers being in shape. He admits they need to be in great shape, but he fails to see how it can be compared to pro baseball or NFL players.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Bex37]

I'm sure you will agree that the olympics is where athletes compete.

At the olympics they had:

Equestrian including dressage
Shooting
Archery
Badminton
Basketball
Baseball
Diving
Fencing
Handball
Hockey
Sailing
Softball
Synchronised swimming
Table tennis
Tennis
Volleyball

Apparently, the people competing in these events are recognised as athletes by their national sporting bodies. This includes hundreds of countries around the world.

Don't try to tell me that an F1 driver is doing anything requiring less skill, less physical strength or is less difficult than any of the activities the people above are doing. If you contend that they are more skilled etc, it would follow that the ppl that do all of the above things must be millionaires as well .....................

To take just one of the sports as an example. Shooting (No offence all you shooters, I'm sure it is extremely difficult; please don't blow my balls off) is basically skilled operation of a mechanical device . Sounds a bit like driving an F1 car ................. Can anyone guess which one is more physically demanding??? What about mentally demanding?????

Modern F1 drivers are definitely athletes, no question.[p][Edited by Bex37 on 10-26-2000]

[Sean L]

Just to back up what I stated earlier, I found this in the news from 3 days ago:

Trulli to take part in NY marathon

Jarno Trulli ended the 2000 season in 10th place overall with six championship points, but before he can start his preparations for the 2001 season, he has another important appointment on his calendar.

At the beginning of the 2000 season Trulli expressed his desire to compete in the New York city marathon and he'll be doing so on the 5th of November as he tries and complete the 26 mile race.

[Sphinx]

Everyone has their own idea of an athlete. For example, many Americans don't consider golfers as athletes or golf as a sport, they look at golf as a game.

What about jet fighter pilots and astronauts? Being that they have to concentrate for long periods of time, compete against enemy pilots (with much higher stakes) and withstand high g-forces, sweat in hot flight suits and have the sun beam down on them in a hot cockpit, does that mean we call them athletes?

Just a question.

Just because Trulli runs marathons doesn't mean all drivers are athletes. It means that he will be able to endure long and demanding F1 races and hold his concentration. Part of being a successful driver.

[RedFever]

Ross, no offense, but F1 is an entirely different story. When I raced in karts and Formula Italia, I didn't need any particular training, I was simply jogging 3 times a week and lift weights three times a week (but I always had, it wasn't about racing).

In F1, you wouldn't resist 5-10 laps. Look at Verstappen, an experienced driver with years in F1, he had to stop after 20 laps his first race this year because he wasn't able to drive anymore.

Michael Schumacher, talking about his vacation between Suzuka and Sepang, was mentioning how relaxing it was to finally just lay down, read and do nothing, compared to the 4 hours of physical training he does everyday, on top of driving. Four hours a day of weight lifting, cardio and stretching. Now that's an athlete. And everyone else is forced to do the same to compete at that level.

Also, tell your roomates, that contrary to baseball, there aren't any guys with a belly in F1.....although, baseball similarly to F1 has changed. 15 years ago they were barely fit, now 90% of them are in great shape

[DangerMouse]

America/Americans have abused the word athlete for some time. On commentary for a friggin golf match you often hear stuff like “he's a fine athlete.” What nonsense.

NFL players, F1 drivers, volleyball players, Golfers are not athletes, they are Sportsmen - they may need athletic attributes such as strength and stamina but they are not athletes!

English died the day common use was decided to be the main factor when updating dictionaries! Now the language is shaped by people who do not understand it – Americans.

Still the web will soon take over that role and the moron will own the dictionary. Slang will become recognised Englishat an even greater rate and spelling will become more phonetic – it seems nobody wants to learn anymore. With computers people can learn how to speak before they know how to write! (and yes I know my grammar’s crap!)


The world will end tomorrow..

DM Rant #478383847 TM whinging Pom @2000

[Peeko]

NFL players, F1 drivers, volleyball players, Golfers are not athletes, they are Sportsmen - they may need athletic attributes such as strength and stamina but they are not athletes!

I have musical attributes; I can play drums, bass, guitar, saxaphone, and learn music by ear. Does this mean I am not a musician? Or am I only a musician if I make money? Hey, now there's a thought...

[DangerMouse]

Peeko that's English for you - not the most consistant langauge in the world.

Does the fact that I HAVE been paid to play Music (fools!!) mean I am a real Musician? - worrying!

[RedFever]

DM, while I was at UCSD, I saw the SD Chargers training there. Not athletes? think again. Yes, the guys playing in the scremage line are fat asses that cannot even run. But the wide receivers? some of them competed internationally in track & field competitions before making money in pro-football. They are incredible athletes.

[mtl'78]

Brundle explained it well. He once said the trick that racing drivers pull off, is to make their sport look easy. Fitness musn't become an issue,the driver must be able to operatethe car perfectly, so that tired arms, shortness of breath doesn't affect them at all. MS seems to be the perfect example of this, as you pointed out he comes out looking fresh and relaxed.

Brundle went on to say that the average joe, couldn,t handle more than a lap at racing speed, he would be too tired to try and continue...

Keep in mund as an average their hearts beat 200+ times a minute at the start, and go between 140-180 the whole race!

I remember reading that a few drivers, such as Senna, Perterson and Gilles had comparibly much lower heartrates. I read that Gilles' was aroung 150 at the start and settled down to a comfortable 120 during the race. He was renowned for his horrible diet, hamburgers and coke every meal, and total lack of training... His workouts came inside the cockpit...

I also read tha Senna was eerily calm in the cockpit, though I don't have the same numbers.

[mtl'78]

Red, you will find that many of those fatasses could still run faster than you or I. I've seen an OL pick up a fumble and run it in for a TD ahead of DB's...

[Peeko]

That's cause they're thinking of all the burgers they can buy because of bonuses in their contract for every TD scored.

[Manson]

This topic comes up all the time, especially in the Toronto newspapers where JV was attacked for winning Canadian Athlete of the Year in 1997. His main competition was Baseballer Larry Walker (who was certainly no sportsman about it). The papers and most stick and ballers maintained JV was no athlete compared to Walker. Rediculous to those in the know. Anyway, whenever this topic comes up I tell the people to do the following:

Perform 2 hours of aerobics dressing in a snowsuit while in a sauna.

The conversation usually ends there!

GO JV!

[DangerMouse]

RedFever I did not say they are not ultra fit - I said they are not Athletes, Athletes perform in Athletics, Boxers box, Footballers play football. The term Athlete is incorrectly used to mean generally fit.

So in modern (American) usage a fit Sportsman is called an Athlete - he is not an Athlete. He is a fit Sportsman.

Check out Rugby players - a damn dite fitter than oxygen sucking NFL players - they may not look it. They play a hectic physical game for 80 mins with only a short break. They are still not Athletes despite having Athletic qualities - thay are Rugby football players.

[Max Torque]

Semantics. Basaed on the greek term (athletism), F1 drivers are NOT athletes. But that term doesn't mean **** anymore. When a golfer, a baseballer etc. etc. are considered athletes, then F1 drivers deserve to be called that ten times more.

[RedFever]

oh, I see what you mean, I thought you were undermining the physical aspect of sports suchs as car racing or basketball or volley. Well, English like every language is in constant evolution. Athletes are generally anyone using their bodies to obtain extreme performance, these days. yes, skiers and swimmers included. They do not compete in athletics, but the term athlete is generally accepted for them. It makes it easier to say that they have to pay attention to their bodies and train hard. Saying a driver is a car racer would not imply physical fitness, while the word athlete does. It's not just English, we have been referring to sportmen as athlete (atleta) in Italian since I can remember. It might have been limited to field and track, but it's now common use for any sport at least for the past 20-30 years.

[Cosworth]

The car does most of the work, therefore they are not athletes. It would be like Tiger Woods (who is an athlete) lining up on the flag, gauging the range, and taking his shot...but with a cannon instead of a club! If they want to be athletes they can run around the track on their own 2 legs. (They are, however, incredibly skilled)

[Max Torque]

"The car does most of the work"?? What MOST work does the car? The running part?

Tell me why T.Woods is more of an athlete than Schumacher.

[Manson]

"COSWORTH", are you for real? Guess the cars just direct themselves around the course, with the driver givin' them the whip. Yehah!!!

[mhferrari]

In lesser formulae, you can race without being in good physical condition. In F1, you could technically finish races, but you would probably finish last lapped several times by Gaston Mazzacane and having your second lap your fastest lap.

While they aren't atheletes in the sense of the word, they are more athletic than many athletes.

An American football player is an athlete, in response to MattPete. Although there is not much running for certain positions, you need to be an athlete or you will not be effective the whole distance. And take from me the equipment doesn't help.

[Mila]

since we've mentioned Brundle a couple of times, it's worth noting that--due to his sub-standard physical condition--the British driver was unable to answer the call at Williams when they needed a replacement driver. I recall that this was in 88 when Mansell had chickenpox.

a similar situation prevented Emmanuel Collard from driving for Prost a few years back.

b3nster, to prove a perspective for skeptical roommates, if you corner quickly in an average road car, and you're just getting to the point when you think that you'll slide off, you're likely approaching only 1g.

[Bex37]

Originally posted by Cosworth
The car does most of the work, therefore they are not athletes.

I can accept that without the car, the drivers would not be doing 200km/hr, however, if you are implying that the driver just sits there and steers and presses peddles without much physical assertion, you are very much mistaken.

[Bex37]

Collins Gem Australian English Dictionary

Athlete n. one trained for physical exercises, feats or contents of strength; one good at sports.

Welcome to the 21st century, dangermouse

[MacFan]

Originally posted by Bex37
Collins Gem Australian English Dictionary

Enough said.;)

[Bex37]

Its also got "Pommie", "Esky" and "bitser" in it

[rw shepherd]

The comparison of F1 drivers to baseball or football players is just too funny. Maybe boxers or hockey players but not guys who can't throw a ball if they've got a hangnail or who run the 40 yard dash to evidence their speed. Thank you to bex37 for accurately pointing out (the only one to mention it) the connection between physical and mental fitness. Dimished physical capacity in any real sport, like hockey, for instance, eventually results in diminished mental capacity and promotes the making of mistakes. This is an undisputable fact. Fitness is important in F1 specifically because the heat and g-forces can diminish physical capacity without a high fitness level which in turn diminishes the driver's ability to make judgements with respect to overtaking, braking distance, apex, etc. The cars are moving just as quickly at the end of a race as they do at the beginning. A mental mistake can be fatal. Although these guys have to be as one with a mechanical device, the car, to be successful, their role and the fitness level required places them quite clearly in the category of "Athlete".

[Matt W]

Leaving aside the semantic debates, raw fitness or levels of training are not sufficient. I should have thought that any common conception of athleticism should include physical skill levels - most notably hand-eye (and foot-eye) coordination. F1 drivers have truck loads of that (well, all of them except Mazzacane, of course).

[DangerMouse]

Bex As I've said several times dictionaries are updated quickly and often these days to reflect COMMON USE of words.

The word Athlete has been abused and the dictionary changed - While I'm alive I'll never be able to stare Tiger Woods in the eye and think "what an Athlete" he is a SPORTSMAN!

"Athlete's" - my foot.
(Disclaimer: any damage caused by this side splitting pun is not the responsibility of DangerMouse or his associates...) – Ok I know it’s bad!

leave me in the 20th century thanks, I was happier there...

[danut]

I am quite surprised that, even though the majority of posters on this thread seem to be spending a lot of time in front of their computers, you people don't even bother to check an online dictionary...

So, here's the Merriam-Webster online dictionary's entry for athlete

Main Entry: ath·lete
Pronunciation: 'ath-"lEt, ÷'a-th&-"lEt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin athleta, from Greek athlEtEs, from athlein to contend for a prize, from athlon prize, contest
Date: 15th century
: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina

DangerMouse, athlete originaly meant someone competing for a prize, so your assertion that dictionaries are updated to include the common sense of a word is totally wrong; in this case, when people call golfers athletes, they are actually using the oldest meaning of the word: competing for a prize.

We call the people performing in athletic competitions such as running various distances or throwing weights athletes, because this are the oldest competitions and they were called athletics since they appeared, but they are not the only athletes, if we accept the broader maning of the word.

In all the languages that have taken the word from ancient greek, the word athlete is used to describe a person who is in good physical shape, even if that person is not involved in competitions.

So are, F1 drivers athletes? Undobtedly! Are they "more athletes" than NFL players, or golfers, or boxers? THIS is a debate that can go on forever...

(Based on the dictionary entry - please don't ask if chess players are athletes