223 replies to this topic

[FTB]

A nice analysis of Jochen Rindt from F1Metrics: https://f1metrics.wo...top-100/#JRindt

His model also had Rindt's 1970 season as the strongest season of all time according to the model in his 2018 end of season report:

[ensign14]

How does Jim Clark winning 7 out of 10 in 1963 work out to be a worse season than Jochen winning 5 out of 10 in 1970?

[Ray Bell]

Maybe six out of ten is inferior to five out of seven?

[Collombin]

How does Jim Clark winning 7 out of 10 in 1963 work out to be a worse season than Jochen winning 5 out of 10 in 1970?

If you read the analysis it appears that Jochen was able to win in Monaco despite retiring early from the race. Not even Clark ever managed a win in those circumstances.

[Stephen W]

Using the current points system (25 for a win down to 1 for 10th) gives Clark a Points Average for 1965 of 16.77. Meanwhile for Rindt in 1970 the points average is 12.5. 

 

I can't be bothered to read through the methodology used to arrive at the final figures but the fiddle factors seem to be some what arbitrary.

 

It's just another "if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle" thread.

[ensign14]

Maybe six out of ten is inferior to five out of seven?

 

But it's not 5 out of 7 for Jochen.  He took part in 10 WC events in 1970.  There is no possible valid statistical analysis that can say 5 wins and nothing else in 10 races is better than 7 wins and two podia in the same period.  

[john winfield]

But it's not 5 out of 7 for Jochen.  He took part in 10 WC events in 1970.  There is no possible valid statistical analysis that can say 5 wins and nothing else in 10 races is better than 7 wins and two podia in the same period.  

 

I can't be bothered to read the detail but I think f1metrics has some system that discards races where retirement was not the fault of the driver, so Jochen's ten races become seven.    I'm optimistic that one mysterious extrapolation will confirm Pete Lovely as the 1970 World Champion.

Edited by john winfield, 18 July 2022 - 10:43.

[Rediscoveryx]

Back in those days it's quite difficult to judge whether or not a retirement was "the fault of the driver" or not. Blown engines, broken gearboxes etc could just as easily be due to the driver overrevving/missing gear changes etc rather than design flaws. Also, retiring through a crash can of course be none of the drivers fault.

 

But having said that, when you're using a statistical model you need to make some sort of an assumption and I guess those assumptions are pretty fair (although not perfect) all things considered.

Edited by Rediscoveryx, 18 July 2022 - 10:55.

[Ray Bell]

My apologies, ensign...

 

I was taking the last three races from the ten. But they were already deducted. Then you have to discount the Italian, so he only ran in nine races.

 

Clark's result was condensed because only the best six results were counted, he had to toss out a win and two seconds. I doubt anybody else ever had to do anything like that.

[Collombin]

Ascari dropped two wins in 1952 and another in 1953.

However it does look like Clark's 19 points dropped in 1963 is the most anyone has ever had to drop in a single season. Slightly surprisingly he never had to drop any in 1965 (or any other season for that matter).

Edited by Collombin, 18 July 2022 - 11:45.

[ensign14]

I can't be bothered to read the detail but I think f1metrics has some system that discards races where retirement was not the fault of the driver, so Jochen's ten races become seven.    I'm optimistic that one mysterious extrapolation will confirm Pete Lovely as the 1970 World Champion.

 

Oh, well, in that case, Jean-Pierre Jabouille is the greatest Grand Prix driver ever.

[D28]

By the points scoring system in place, A.  Ascari and Jim Clark scored perfect seasons 1952 for Ascari and twice for Clark 1963 and 65. No other driver has done this. And it wasn't theoretical as the model mentions. All one can do is race with what is in place at the time, so it is not credible to have Clark missing from the best season table, especially for 1965. And Ascari should be higher. I have little patience for these hypothetical exercises, but this one is especially suspect.

Rindt fully deserved his title in 1970 and even Jacky Ickx said as much, better to leave it at that, let the official results speak for themselves.

Edited by D28, 18 July 2022 - 13:37.

[Collombin]

Ascari and Jim Clark scored perfect seasons 1952 for Ascari and twice for Clark 1963 and 65. No other driver has done this. And it wasn't theoretical as the model mentions. All one can do is race with what is in place at the time

All true of course, but the scoring standards required for perfection were never lower than in the 1960-66 era, with only the best 5/9 or 6/10 race scores counting and no fastest lap requirement (the reason Ascari's 1953 wasn't perfect).

A perfect score nowadays would require 22 race wins, 22 fastest laps and winning all the sprint qualifying races, so you could theoretically have a much better statistical season (even in percentage terms) than Clark's 1965 and not get anywhere near a perfect score. Would that make it a "worse" season?

[D28]

All true of course, but the scoring standards required for perfection were never lower than in the 1960-66 era, with only the best 5/9 or 6/10 race scores counting and no fastest lap requirement (the reason Ascari's 1953 wasn't perfect).

A perfect score nowadays would require 22 race wins, 22 fastest laps and winning all the sprint qualifying races, so you could theoretically have a much better statistical season (even in percentage terms) than Clark's 1965 and not get anywhere near a perfect score. Would that make it a "worse" season?

Yes, I was thinking in the period 1961-90 still with relatively few races and the points for top 6 only and the era just before that. There were opportunities for drivers to approach what these two did, but  they still stand out. Of course now it is a completely different game, hard to compare with earlier eras.

Edited by D28, 18 July 2022 - 15:05.

[Doug Nye]

Yawn...     

 

DCN

[Risil]

(Strange statistical analysis that ranks Fangio's 1950 higher than any of his world championship years.)

 

But for those who were following Grand Prix racing at the time (or when 1970 was still fresh in the memory), was Rindt's miraculous summer thought to be an achievement on the level of a Clark or Fangio, or more a function of having a really good car and Jackie Stewart toiling away with a customer March? Or did opinion divide down what you already thought about the Austrian.

[Ray Bell]

It started with Jack slipping off the road at Monaco, didn't it?

 

And then running out of fuel at Brands Hatch.

 

We had, at least from my point of view, seen Rindt working miracles, driving rings around the others at times. We'd also wondered about Jenks and his beard-removal promise, so feelings were hardly universal.

[john winfield]

 

But for those who were following Grand Prix racing at the time (or when 1970 was still fresh in the memory), was Rindt's miraculous summer thought to be an achievement on the level of a Clark or Fangio, or more a function of having a really good car and Jackie Stewart toiling away with a customer March? Or did opinion divide down what you already thought about the Austrian.

 

I don't think many people, even by the time of Jochen's fifth win, compared his 1970 performance with either Clark or Fangio.  You're right, JYS in an average car made for a very interesting, even season, with the first four races producing four different winners, in four different makes.  Jochen was such a talented, exciting driver, as illustrated in virtually any F2 event he attended, but I think everyone was surprised that he and the 72 put together four consecutive GP wins which, to all intents and purposes, tied up the World Championship.  The car and Jochen seemed to mature together, after a pretty shaky start. Occasionally he was dominant (Zandvoort) but otherwise the wins were hard-fought, not easy run-aways. The car became reliable, and Jochen mature enough to exploit the bad luck of Beltoise and Ickx at Charade, and Ickx and Brabham at Brands. At Hockenheim, although Jochen down-played his part in the win (praising the car), his calmness in withstanding the challenge of March and, particularly, Ickx's Ferrari was indicative of the control needed to win a World Championship. He fully deserved the title, but had still to show something akin to the true greatness of Clark or Fangio. 

 

Very sad that he never lived to receive the crown, and probably a good thing that, in terms of 1970 results, luck seemed to be going his way. A couple of different results here or there and the title could have gone to Ickx or Brabham. And neither would have wanted it.

Edited by john winfield, 19 July 2022 - 12:04.

[GreenMachine]

Very sad but this popped up on my FB feed, thought I would share as learned things I didn't know (assuming all true):

  · 

David A. Adams wrote on April 5, 2022 on Jochen Rindt accident 

 

Since Jackie Stewart had commenced his safety crusade in the wake of his nasty shunt at Belgium in 1966, Armco Barrier (That “W” shaped stuff that is so common on the world’s roadways) had become the safety device of choice among track operators in an effort to placate nervous drivers and to make previously-deadly venues supposedly safe. When all F1 cars had their radiators up in the nose, it was possible to hit a properly-assembled Armco barrier at fairly high speed and walk away, but if the barrier (As it almost always was) was improperly fastened to its stanchions  or had an excessive gap along its lower edge and was contacted by a shovel-nosed car like the 72 it could easily be lethal.

 

 

While the bolded part is probably self-evident, is it a fact the Armco 'almost always' was improperly installed?  Did investigations after the named fatalities say it was so in those cases?  I'll bet they didn't as we would all have heard about the massive payouts from the resulting court cases (or the threat thereof). If it is a fact, let's have some references/quotes.  Or is Adams meaning to say that, with the benefit of hindsight, it would have been installed it differently?  Seems pretty sloppy commentary to me, but then what do we expect from FB ..., 

 

The other thing that surprises me is the wings/no wings dichotomy.  Chapman as a pilot must have known about the existence of a whole variety of airfoils, depending on the task required of them.  In this case a low drag airfoil trimmed out to near 0* AoA could still turn in high Vmax with significant DF - not anywhere near the usual DF but still helpful with stability and cornering.  Perhaps he did have something in mind, but the competition caught up quicker than expected.

[Catalina Park]

Ascari's championships should rate higher since he won his races driving a Formula 2 car.

[Ray Bell]

Of course...

 

But so did his opponents.

[subh]

If we scroll past Jochen Rindt on the F1Metrics page we soon find higher ranked drivers who, at the time that the list was compiled, had not even won a race, let alone a World Championship - three in all, one of whom never stood on the podium.  Then if we scroll up and see who's placed in position 43, and look at some of those who sit below him in the list, it would certainly seem to call into question the methodology used...

[blackmme]

If we scroll past Jochen Rindt on the F1Metrics page we soon find higher ranked drivers who, at the time that the list was compiled, had not even won a race, let alone a World Championship - three in all, one of whom never stood on the podium.  Then if we scroll up and see who's placed in position 43, and look at some of those who sit below him in the list, it would certainly seem to call into question the methodology used...

I hope the creator really thoroughly enjoyed building the model and documenting the results because beyond that singular individual it has absolutely no value whatsoever.

I am sure given enough time I could come up with a model that proves that Norwich City are actually the greatest team in the history of the Premiership (I will limit myself to that) but I wouldn’t expect it to be terribly respected.

On reflection  I think that it might be easier to prove the greatness of NCFC than it would be to claim that Nico Hulkenberg is the 17th greatest F1 driver of all time and statistically better than Alain Prost and Ayrton Senna

 

Best to just completely ignore it.

 

Regards Mike  

[Mallory Dan]

I'm with you on the Canaries, Mike.....