23 replies to this topic

[Duncan Fox]

I have a problem as the 5000 group tech officer here in NZ that I feel you folks out there can help us with.

We have a set of 70 Tasman Regs and also some L & M rules that show 1250lbs and 1350lbs for unlimited 5000cc respectively. My questions are ; When did the weight change, for what reason and were all the series weights aligned each year ? Ie NZ. GB. US . AUS and Sth Africa.

Also , apart from the series regs what were F5000 rules based on? Were the F1 rules for cars altered to take stock production engines ? Or was it purely as it is stated in the Tasman regs .Single seater racing cars running on pump fuel? Which would no doubt have allowed anything . I know that in the US modified M1 McLarens were eligble in FA Did that change later or did those early cars just become quickly obsolete as the series grew.

I have been bombarded lately with questions from our competitors that quite frankly I cant answer accurately . They all want rules and regs which appear to only exist on a single A3 page.

Thanks Guys. Duncan.

[David McKinney]

I have a sneaking feeling I looked into this a while ago, and found there were no FIA regs for F5000 (because there was no FIA championship). As you know, the first NZ race for these cars was at Bay Park in December 1968 - I'm sure they would have been SCCA FA regs pure and simple. When the 5-litre stock-block formula was adopted for the Tasman Series a year later, it was surely a modification of that. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that there were slight weight variations from Tasman through North American to European and South African...
No much help, am I?

[Peter Brennan]

G'day Duncan,according to my 1978 CAMS manual,for Australian F1[F5000]

"the minimum weight of the vehicle including fluids and lubricants,but not including fuel and driver,shall be 1,350 pounds[612 kg]"

Good Luck Peter

[Duncan Fox]

I have a sneaking feeling I looked into this a while ago, and found there were no FIA regs for F5000 (because there was no FIA championship). As you know, the first NZ race for these cars was at Bay Park in December 1968 - I'm sure they would have been SCCA FA regs pure and simple. When the 5-litre stock-block formula was adopted for the Tasman Series a year later, it was surely a modification of that. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that there were slight weight variations from Tasman through North American to European and South African...
No much help, am I?

Actually David you have helped great deal , your answer supports my thoughts that this was a rather open class originally with very few "rules" actually written down. This seems to explain why I can find very little actual text. G McRae talked with me on the subject and also mentioned a change in the US at some time pertaining to the aero packages on the cars .It does appear the rules and changes as such were led by the Yanks , and modified for the local scenes .

Its interesting , we have a lot of mainstream motorsport competitors coming on board now and they all are expecting a rule book. All seem to struggle initially with an "historic series" and "period spec" Some really seem unable to grasp the fact that if it wasnt available in period you cannot use it now. As the Aussies say "As it was , so shall it be".

[Duncan Fox]

G'day Duncan,according to my 1978 CAMS manual,for Australian F1[F5000]

"the minimum weight of the vehicle including fluids and lubricants,but not including fuel and driver,shall be 1,350 pounds[612 kg]"

Good Luck Peter

Hi Peter.

We are trying to establish just when the min weight changed .A McRea owner has asked the question and I cannot answer it . We include them in our Big class but dont know what their min wt should be . The McLaren 10a's and b's can be 1250lbs as that was the rule of the day but what was the wt down under for the 72 Tasman season?

[aaron]

Duncan, according to Twite's "The World's Racing Cars" 1970 the original weight was as per the M10 McLaren and Lola T142 at 1250 lbs. The SCCA had created Formula A for stock block open wheelers in 1968. In 1969 rules were jointly adopted by British Racing and Sports Car Club and Motor Circuit Developments (promotoers such as Brands Hatch) and renamed F5000.
The minimum weight of 1350 lbs seems to have been in force in the USA but I cannot find at the moment reference to the exact minimum weight required for the Tasman series from 1972. The Matich came in at 1356 lbs and was built to the formula both here and in the states but it was running here in late 1971 when it won the AGP so I presume the minimum weight had always been 1350 lbs here. I can find no reference to an alteration of that weight throughout the period.
Aaron.

[aaron]

Duncan, according to Twite's "The World's Racing Cars" 1970 the original weight was as per the M10 McLaren and Lola T142 at 1250 lbs. The SCCA had created Formula A for stock block open wheelers in 1968. In 1969 rules were jointly adopted by British Racing and Sports Car Club and Motor Circuit Developments (promotoers such as Brands Hatch) and renamed F5000.
The minimum weight of 1350 lbs seems to have been in force in the USA but I cannot find at the moment reference to the exact minimum weight required for the Tasman series from 1972. The Matich came in at 1356 lbs and was built to the formula both here and in the states but it was running here in late 1971 when it won the AGP so I presume the minimum weight had always been 1350 lbs here. I can find no reference to an alteration of that weight throughout the period.
Aaron.

I should add that for 1971 in the U.S.A. L & M Continental Championship the minimum weight was raised to 1350 lbs. I think that became the standardised rule for everyone after that.

[Vitesse2]

I have a sneaking feeling I looked into this a while ago, and found there were no FIA regs for F5000 (because there was no FIA championship). As you know, the first NZ race for these cars was at Bay Park in December 1968 - I'm sure they would have been SCCA FA regs pure and simple. When the 5-litre stock-block formula was adopted for the Tasman Series a year later, it was surely a modification of that. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that there were slight weight variations from Tasman through North American to European and South African...
No much help, am I?

Just to expand on this: as David pointed out, the F5000 championships were not an FIA affair. F5000 cars are illustrated in the various Yellow Books of the era, but unlike F1, F2 and F3, which were defined as "Single-seater Racing Cars - International Formulae (Group 8)", they are identified as Group 9 - Formule Libre Racing Cars.

Article 299 of the ISC makes clear that weights and cylinder capacities of races and championships run for Group 9 cars are "at the discretion of the promoters and it rests with them to list these specifications as clearly as possible in the Supplementary Regulations of the event, which anyway have to be approved by the National Sporting Authority answerable to the FIA." Cars also had to comply with various of the Article 296 safety regulations applicable to Formulae 1, 2 and 3.

The relevant NSAs in period would therefore seem to be the RAC in Britain, CAMS in Australia, ACCUS in the USA and the AA in South Africa. Strangely, the Yellow Books don't mention an NSA for New Zealand before 1973 (could be 1972, but I seem to have mislaid that one!)

[Paul Hamilton]

Just to expand on this: as David pointed out, the F5000 championships were not an FIA affair. F5000 cars are illustrated in the various Yellow Books of the era, but unlike F1, F2 and F3, which were defined as "Single-seater Racing Cars - International Formulae (Group 8)", they are identified as Group 9 - Formule Libre Racing Cars.

Article 299 of the ISC makes clear that weights and cylinder capacities of races and championships run for Group 9 cars are "at the discretion of the promoters and it rests with them to list these specifications as clearly as possible in the Supplementary Regulations of the event, which anyway have to be approved by the National Sporting Authority answerable to the FIA." Cars also had to comply with various of the Article 296 safety regulations applicable to Formulae 1, 2 and 3.

The relevant NSAs in period would therefore seem to be the RAC in Britain, CAMS in Australia, ACCUS in the USA and the AA in South Africa. Strangely, the Yellow Books don't mention an NSA for New Zealand before 1973 (could be 1972, but I seem to have mislaid that one!)

Formula 5000 was introduced in Australia in 1971. Although the 1970 Tasman series included a mix of F5000s and the old 2.5 litre Tasman cars our domestic Gold Star series was restricted to the 2.5 cars until 1971. The F5000 regulations were first listed in the CAMS manual in 1971 and included a minimum weight of 1250lb which was retained until 1976 when it was increased to 1350lb. The weight limit then stayed at 1350lb until 1981 which was the last year the formula was listed in the manual.

[Vitesse2]

Well, Tasman (and Gold Star) cars would technically also be Group 9 rather than Group 8, so according to the Yellow Book definition that would mean that CAMS should have published something in 1970 too.

edit: Re-reading the first post, it looks like they did, but I'd guess they might have come to a compromise, given the apparent minor differences between the US and UK regs - F5000s from both groups took part in 1970, plus some locals. From memory, I have a feeling that the F5000s were a bit of a last-minute addition when it became clear that the European F1 teams were no longer interested and the fields would have to been padded out with second-rate Gold Star cars?

Edited by Vitesse2, 08 September 2009 - 12:49.

[f1steveuk]

Bit of an eye opener for me. As a mere thirteen year old when I watched my first F5000 event (1973) I assumed (never a good idea) that it was stock block engines (and therefore not fully stressed members?) of a maximum 5000cc which had to have carb's, not fuel injection. Then the formula dissapeared, and I never saw the need to look any further. That's why I was always puzzled by the McLaren M25 etc, which seemed to swap from fully stressed DFVs and Morand Chevy V8s, which by dint of being stock blocks couldn't be fully stressed, in fact I started a thread because I had been shown pictures of what was supposedly a DFV engined Lola T332, and was curious how the engine was mounted.

[David McKinney]

From memory, I have a feeling that the F5000s were a bit of a last-minute addition when it became clear that the European F1 teams were no longer interested and the fields would have to been padded out with second-rate Gold Star cars?

The other way about, actually
The decision was taken to replace the old 2.5 formula with a variant of F5000, but to save Australian and NZ owners having to scrap their 2.5 cars, there was provision for cars with racing engines of that size. It will be recalled that at the time FA in North America allowed cars with 3-litre racing engines (ie, F1) while the restriction in Europe was 2.0 (F2)

[HDonaldCapps]

Sports Car, July 1967 (Volume XXV, Number 7), page 20, “Drivers’ Meeting,” by James Patterson

Starting in 1968, in addition to 3-litre unrestricted engines, 5-litre stock-block engines will be allowed in Formula A. Change takes effect on 1 January 1968.

• Engines must be approved by SCCA, be of US-manufacture, pushrod-operated, and produced in a quantity of at least 5,000 per year.
• Engine may be modified or altered as desired except
• Maximum displacement cannot exceed 5,000cc and may be obtained by alteration of bore or stroke as desired
• Cylinder(s) heads and/or cylinder block cannot be substituted
• Location of the camshaft cannot be changed
• Number of main bearings cannot be changed
• Self-starter required
• Superchargers are not permitted
• Minimum weight including coolant and lubricants, excluding fuel and driver, is 1,250lbs
• Maximum fuel capacity is 30 gallons

Effective 1 January 1968, maximum fuel capacity of SCCA Grand Prix Championship cars is:
• Class A/ 5,000cc engine – 30 gallons
• Class A/ 3,000cc engine – 26 gallons
• Class B – 19 gallons
• Class C – 16 gallons

SCCA Approved Engines for Formula SCCA, Class A
Displacements of approved engines, cylinder head and block material cast iron except where noted:

American Motors: 287, 290, 327, 343
Buick: 215 (aluminum), 300, 340, 250
Chevrolet: 282, 302, 307, 327, 350
Chrysler: 340
Dodge: 273, 318, 361
Ford: 260, 289, 302 (not tunnel port), 353
Kaiser Jeep: 327
Mercury: 260, 289, 302 (not tunnel port)
Oldsmobile: 215 (aluminum), 330, 350
Plymouth: 273, 318, 361
Pontiac: 326, 350

[Duncan Fox]

Bit of an eye opener for me. As a mere thirteen year old when I watched my first F5000 event (1973) I assumed (never a good idea) that it was stock block engines (and therefore not fully stressed members?) of a maximum 5000cc which had to have carb's, not fuel injection. Then the formula dissapeared, and I never saw the need to look any further. That's why I was always puzzled by the McLaren M25 etc, which seemed to swap from fully stressed DFVs and Morand Chevy V8s, which by dint of being stock blocks couldn't be fully stressed, in fact I started a thread because I had been shown pictures of what was supposedly a DFV engined Lola T332, and was curious how the engine was mounted.

This is all good stuff guys , my gut feeling on this appears to have been close. Another oddity was raised above . Why did the European championship run carbs , for how long , and how did Church Farm / Gethin / McLaren get away with injection during 69?

[Paul Hamilton]

The other way about, actually
The decision was taken to replace the old 2.5 formula with a variant of F5000, but to save Australian and NZ owners having to scrap their 2.5 cars, there was provision for cars with racing engines of that size. It will be recalled that at the time FA in North America allowed cars with 3-litre racing engines (ie, F1) while the restriction in Europe was 2.0 (F2)

The change to F5000 was not all that smooth in Australia as there was initially strong support for a 2 litre formula to replace the 2.5's. CAMS originally announced that it would adopt a 2 litre formula which had strong support and was the basis for Merv Waggott's production of his excellent TC4V engine used extensively in 1969/70/71 by the Mildren team, Leo Geoghegan and others. That announcement prompted a vigorous debate and by the end of 1969 the decision had been changed with a combined F5000 and 2 litre formula to take effect as ANF1 from the end of 1970 on expiration of the 2.5 litre formula.

It was all a bit messy during the changeover with the F5000 cars included in the Tasman races early in 1970 but then excluded from the Gold Star events during the remainder of the year only to return late in the year at Warwick Farm for the AGP won by Frank Matich in an M10 McLaren. The '71 Tasman series included some 2.5 cars with the 5000s but they were not eligible for the 1971 Australian Gold Star which limited the free design engine option to 2 litres.

The 5000's took a little time to find their feet and the little cars initially continued to have some success. Graham Lawrence won the 1970 Tasman series in the lovely little Ferrari Dino and Max Stewart won the 1971 Australian Gold Star series in a 2 litre Waggott powered Mildren built by Bob Britton. However, although the 2 litre free design engine option remained a component of ANF1 up to the end of 1974, the little cars were pretty much dead by 1972 and it was the 5000's all the way from there until their demise following the kiwi's adoption of Formula Atlantic (Pacific) in the late '70s.

CAMS did endeavour to ease the way out for the owners of the 2 litre and 2.5 cars by including a 2.5 litre class with a pointscore weighting in the Australian Sportscar Championship. That did provide a market for the engines and helped the process as several of the Waggotts and Repco V8s did end their contemporary careers running in those events.

[David McKinney]

I remember that conflict between the partner countries in the early days, Paul

And, Duncan, there was another conflict over carbs vs injection. I'm delving deep into the memory banks here, but seem to remember that everyone thought the Tasman regs specified carbs, but could apparently be interpreted the other way. Even by the second year (1971) the problem seemed unresolved, and although most were running carbs, some used f-i.

[Paul Hamilton]

I remember that conflict between the partner countries in the early days, Paul

And, Duncan, there was another conflict over carbs vs injection. I'm delving deep into the memory banks here, but seem to remember that everyone thought the Tasman regs specified carbs, but could apparently be interpreted the other way. Even by the second year (1971) the problem seemed unresolved, and although most were running carbs, some used f-i.

David, that was not the only time we were in conflict as you will no doubt also recall the even more bitter disputes which arose when we were far too slow to follow the kiwis' lead in adopting Formula Atlantic (Pacific) to replace F5000 when it began to falter late in the 70's. That difference in approach lead to the death of the Tasman series and was much regretted by many of us on our side of the Tasman. That is another quite complex story, however, and it has nothing to do with Duncan's reasons for starting this thread.

On the subject of F5000 carburetion I don't know how the Tasman regulations may at times have diferred from our domestic Aussie ANF1 regulations but our situation domestically was quite clear after 1971. In that initial year we did have a requirement for conformity with 'USAC Formula A' and I don't know what carburetion restrictions that may have brought with it. However, the requirement was dropped in 1972 and subsequent years and there was then no mention of any restriction at all on the inlet system other than that the engine had to be unsupercharged. Its interesting that in those days no one thought it necessary to prohibit turbo charging!!!

Duncan, if you have any other queries about our Aussie regulations for these cars please let me know as I have copies of all the relevant CAMS manuals and, although I was always a 'little car man' myself, I was very involved during this period both within the CAMS administration and as a competitor, mostly in our Formula 2 events but also the odd Gold Star race.

[Vitesse2]

This is all good stuff guys , my gut feeling on this appears to have been close. Another oddity was raised above . Why did the European championship run carbs , for how long , and how did Church Farm / Gethin / McLaren get away with injection during 69?

Like 2-litre racing engines, fuel injection was legal in European F5000 in 1969 only. Weber 48 IDA carbs were mandatory for 1970 - this was a cost-cutting measure. Plus ça change .....

Minimum weight 1969-71: 1250lbs.
Minimum weight 1972: 1210lbs (1170lbs for cars under 4 litres).
Minimum weight 1973-75: 1250lbs (1210lbs for cars under 4 litres - turbos permitted on smaller engines).

Source: "Formula 5000 in Europe" by Wolfgang Klopfer, pp7, 33, 90, 114.

I don't have Wolfgang's other book, so can't check the US regs (if he included them).

[David McKinney]

David, that was not the only time we were in conflict as you will no doubt also recall the even more bitter disputes which arose when we were far too slow to follow the kiwis' lead in adopting Formula Atlantic (Pacific) to replace F5000 when it began to falter late in the 70's.

I remember that one very well, Paul. A couple of years after NZ went FP, Bob Jane, Peter Williamson and others tried very hard to get Australia to follow suit - I travelled from NZ to Australia for the early Calder and Adelaide trial races, and of course the FP AGPs at Calder. That was as close as the two countries ever got to returning to a meaningful Tasman Series
(I'm sure you won't remember, but I met you on one of those trips...)

[Paul Hamilton]

I remember that one very well, Paul. A couple of years after NZ went FP, Bob Jane, Peter Williamson and others tried very hard to get Australia to follow suit - I travelled from NZ to Australia for the early Calder and Adelaide trial races, and of course the FP AGPs at Calder. That was as close as the two countries ever got to returning to a meaningful Tasman Series
(I'm sure you won't remember, but I met you on one of those trips...)

Old age must be catching up with me, Dave, as I don't recall meeting you in Oz but I did drive in those early trial Formula Pacific races and I remember that at Calder I was a bit put out when Dave McMillan pushed me out of his way in one of the heats. Bloody Kiwis!!! My old Elfin went particularly well at that meeting given the standard of the machinery it was up against and, although I did not finish in the final, I went home happy as the quality of the competition had given us all something to look forward to. If only things had moved along from there a bit more quickly!!

I do recall having an ale with you after the 1978 Pukekhoe Peter Styvesant race. I was not competing but had gone over to give Andrew Miedecke a hand and we had a good old chat after the race about my experiences the previous year in the UK. I had spent much of 1977 helping Chris Farrell with his Chevron in the British F3 championship events and I seem to remember that you were at that time pretty keen to make it over there yourself. I guess that dream did come true!!

[David McKinney]

Maybe I've got my countries mixed up (turning into a pom...). I don't remember our Pukekohe meeting, but that might have been the occasion I recalled

[Pete Stowe]

Minimum weight 1973-75: 1250lbs (1210lbs for cars under 4 litres - turbos permitted on smaller engines).

Source: "Formula 5000 in Europe" by Wolfgang Klopfer, pp7, 33, 90, 114.

From the 1975 RAC Motor Sport Yearbook (i.e. the UK rulebook) – RAC Approved Formulae, vehicle specifications for National and International events, effective from 1st January 1975.

Formula 5000
1. Engines
a) Minimum capacity 2750 c.c. maximum capacity 5000 c.c.
b) All engines must be from a car currently or previously homologated in Group 1 or 2.
c) Bore and stroke may be changed to obtain the required engine capacity crankshafts being free.
d) Induction system free on all engines using atmospheric induction.
e) Superchargers excepting turbochargers allowed if homologated subject to an equivalence capacity of 1.4.
f) Up to 3500 c.c. all other Group 2 modifications and any homologated option (e.g. 4-valve cylinder heads, overhead camshaft conversions, etc.) permitted.
g) Over 3500 c.c. only 2 push rod operated overhead valves per cylinder and standard cylinder heads permitted. Otherwise all other Group 2 modifications permitted.

2. Minimum weight
Up to 3500 c.c. – 1225 lbs.; 3500 c.c.-5000 c.c. – 1350 lbs.

3. Chassis and Coachwork
a) All provisions of Appendix J as applicable to Formula 1 Safety on 1st January, 1974 also apply to Formula 5000.
b) Mimimum wheel diameter 13 inches.
c) Only permitted tyres are those approved by R.A.C.


Unfortunately I don’t have any earlier Yearbooks to see how the rules differed in previous years.

[Ray Bell]

Under the Tasman and Australian Gold Star rules, I'm sure that fuel injection was always permitted...

Some of the British cars came with their carburettors still in place because they were familiar with them and saw changing as more of a handicap than using them might be.

The allowance of non-standard cylinder heads in Australia was an indication of the desperation of the 'troops' as they pushed their machinery hard.

As virtually everyone was using a Chevrolet, and these had inherent cylinder head weaknesses, the competitors were able to convince the CAMS that it would be beneficial to allow aftermarket cylinder heads. This led, in turn, to John McCormack's IMC head project which we never really saw come to fruition.

While you're checking through your manuals for some of this detail, Paul, why not come up with a date for that change? I'd suggest it was 1978.

And I'm sure that the 'V8' configuration was written into the rules here.

Edited by Ray Bell, 10 September 2009 - 11:58.

[David McKinney]

Under the Tasman and Australian Gold Star rules, I'm sure that fuel injection was always permitted...

Not sure about Australian rules (small 'r') but I do remember a row when one of the US cars ran injection in the non-championship Bay Park race prior to the 1970 series, then switched to carbs for the first Tasman round at Levin, only to find the Australians arriving with f-i engines. Can't remember how it was resolved though, I regret to say