56 replies to this topic

[D.M.N.]

I know there is a very long thread on this, however I think this may justify it's own thread: http://www.dailymail...te-hearing.html

REVEALED: The full FIA dossier of evidence against Renault going before the Nelson Piquet Jnr 'crash-gate' hearing

By SPORTSMAIL REPORTER
Last updated at 9:07 AM on 16th September 2009

Sportsmail has obtained the damning evidence which the FIA has put together against Renault over the Singapore 'crash-gate' scandal.
The files - presented in full here - will go before the World Motor Sport Council in Paris on Monday following allegations that Nelson Piquet Jnr deliberately crashed his car under Renault team orders.

Click here to read document 1
Click here to read document 2
Click here to read document 3
Click here to read document 4 <-- D.M.N. note: very long document; 18 pages
Click here to read document 5 <-- D.M.N. note: appears to be radio transcript - a lot of swearing and communication!
Click here to read document 6 <-- D.M.N. note: telementary
Click here to read document 7 <-- D.M.N. note: telementary
Click here to read document 8 <-- D.M.N. note: telementary
Click here to read document 9 <-- D.M.N. note: telementary
Click here to read document 10 <-- D.M.N. note: telementary
Click here to read document 11 <-- D.M.N. note: track map of section including braking distances
Click here to read document 12 <-- D.M.N. note: track map showing "pickup truck" places in event of crash
Click here to read document 13
Click here to read document 14
Click here to read document 15

I think this appears to be all 15 documents relating to 'Crash-Gate'....

Enjoy.

[Ivan]

This is already IN another of the Renault threads

[cheapracer]

I don't mind, those threads are running so fast and so full I wouldn't know where to find this MOST IMPORTANT information.

I hope its not closed and can be bumped to the top as its a good repository 'to hand'.

Thanks DMN.

[Ivan]

No worries...I downloaded the pdf files of the report anyway

[daishi255]

The one with the radio transcripts was very interesting reading, regardless of the whole crash-gate thing. You can really get a much better sense of what it is like on the pit wall for the engineers etc. Much better than what we normally hear on the FOM TV transmissions.

Seems they had a serious problem with their strategy computer system that day.

[JPW]

Although I've read them already it's a very helpful thread

Just a suggestion, you might want to add some more info on what the docs are about and correct the "telementary" note.

[Buttoneer]

I suppose it saves people posting 'I don't know if this has been posted before but...' messages.

Can we also post the Piquet 'practice video' so all the 'look what I found' stuff can be under one post

[Crazy Ninja]

Thanks D.M.N.
Saves me trying to find them in other threads.

[BMW_F1]

good thread.. I read on an article that all the info was leaked and pass on to the press but I never found it..

thanks

[BMW_F1]

Flavio: That Trulli’s very slow eh?

[cheapracer]

Did anyone notice Symonds knows the crash is at turn 17 rather quickly?

[Buttoneer]

This prolly belongs here too

"sorry if this has been posted again, but have you seen this? [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZrCVbU6pWQ""][/url]

[Ryongsyong]

Flavio Briatore: Let’s see the Japanese now yutaw taw.

??

[potmotr]

Amazing everything has been leaked in this manner.

Suggests the FIA trying to rachet up the pressure on Renault to gain their desired result before any hearing.

And they have. Flav, who had the balls to oppose Mosley early this year, has been axed.

[Bluesmoke]

Just read the radio transcript. Maybe it's just me but I don't see anything that reads to be fishy.

Can someone point out where in the transcripts it's evident that Renault fixed the crash?

Did Symonds know too early?

[ZZMS]

interesting, I find race transcript being not suspicious at all. Before reading it I was convinced that Pat and Co did fix the race, now I'm not. Can someone point any daming thing in the document #5 (radio transcript) ?

[Crazy Ninja]

Flavio Briatore: Let’s see the Japanese now yutaw taw.

??

yeah i wondered bout that too. Maybe he wa sdoing a karate chop and commentating on it

Edited by Crazy Ninja, 16 September 2009 - 16:28.

[ZZMS]

omg bluesmoke, I swear when I was wrighting my comment your message wasn't up but we wrote essentially the same thing, amazing

[D.M.N.]

I presume BTW that the [Engineer] in the Radio Transcript isn't all one person - I presume there are multiple engineers that Flavio and Pat can communicate with?

[David M. Kane]

I blame this whole leaking mess on Max. Where and why does he get off on this sort of thing? Sure they cheated AND Renault has done the right thing; but Max is a slimy little schoolboy who can't hold his own on the playground. What a vindicative little loser he is.

[Slyder]

Did anyone notice Symonds knows the crash is at turn 17 rather quickly?

When the cameras showed the crash, the map locator immediately placed where the accident was, so it's possible Symmonds got it from there.

I also find it interesting that there's hardly any mention of anything regarding the set up of the crash in the radio transcript, however, that doesnt't mean that neither Nelson nor Pat nor Flavio had agreed to this beforehand, and keep radio silence on the matter anyways. It'd be too obvious.

Edited by Slyder, 16 September 2009 - 16:45.

[BRK]

Er,sure-if I was Flavio or Symonds I would congratulate Piquet at his successful 'outing' and pat myself on the back for a job well done over what I know very well is a recorded radio transmission-one that could be held against me in a court of law.

Like someone else mentioned,it's odd Symonds immediately knows which turn NP's crashed at.

Edited by BRK, 16 September 2009 - 16:47.

[wewantourdarbyback]

Can we also post the Piquet 'practice video' so all the 'look what I found' stuff can be under one post

Ooh what video's that?

Edited by wewantourdarbyback, 16 September 2009 - 16:57.

[Gareth]

Just read the radio transcript. Maybe it's just me but I don't see anything that reads to be fishy.

Can someone point out where in the transcripts it's evident that Renault fixed the crash?

Did Symonds know too early?

interesting, I find race transcript being not suspicious at all. Before reading it I was convinced that Pat and Co did fix the race, now I'm not. Can someone point any daming thing in the document #5 (radio transcript) ?

At the risk of turning this into another thread like t'other one, it's the bit where Symonds says he's pitting Alonso early because he's going to catch Nakajima when he's not actually going to do that. Given Symonds had admitted discussing the idea of a crash with PK, this proves that as well as discussing it he expected it to happen and acted acordingly for Alonso's first stop.

[primer]

It's amazing how this 'evidence' keeps on leaking out from FIA. I'll admit that I am downloading and interested in reading all of it, but FIA must take steps to ensure these things do not happen. This is terrible form, it makes FIA look like amateurs (or vengeful basterds).

[Gareth]

It's amazing how this 'evidence' keeps on leaking out from FIA. I'll admit that I am downloading and interested in reading all of it, but FIA must take steps to ensure these things do not happen. This is terrible form, it makes FIA look like amateurs (or vengeful basterds).

1. It hasn't "kept" on leaking out - there has probably been just the one leak, it's just that the Daily Mail were the first to publish in full.

2. It might not have been the FIA who leaked - the dossier will have been in the hands of some at Renault too.

[SPBHM]

the radio transcription is quite fun to read.

[mach4]

Anybody else notice that, looking at document 14, it seems the package was addressed to Briatore at Renault? So maybe someone from Renault itself leaked it?

[Guizotia]

Anybody else notice that, looking at document 14, it seems the package was addressed to Briatore at Renault? So maybe someone from Renault itself leaked it?

So the FIA can't leak a copy of a letter they have sent to Briatore?

[primer]

2. It might not have been the FIA who leaked - the dossier will have been in the hands of some at Renault too.

FIA collected all the data prepared the dossier, right? They need to take steps so that people can't leak incognito. One way could be:

• Don't mail the dossier. Setup a server, keep digital copies and give accounts to those who need to access the dossier.
• Put these online digital dossiers in the form of scanned images (wastes bandwidth, but...) and not text. Use steganography techniques in the images so that leakers can be caught.
• Finally, modify certain sentences in each dossier so that each one has a unique signature. Even if someone goes all out to type a few hundred pages, they will trip and be caught.

It's not that difficult. FIA send this dossier to less than 100 parties, if they wanted they could've done it. IMO they are culpable even if they or one of their proxy/agent are not the 'direct' source of leak. Now, I go back to reading...

[JensonF1]

It's amazing how this 'evidence' keeps on leaking out from FIA. I'll admit that I am downloading and interested in reading all of it, but FIA must take steps to ensure these things do not happen. This is terrible form, it makes FIA look like amateurs (or vengeful basterds).

Do you not think Renault are the one leaking the info to the press in an attempt to cause a mistrial?

Renault could have been in possession of all 15 documents at some point.

[Anssi]

Perhaps there should be criminal investigation into how all of those documents got leaked.

[Gareth]

It's not that difficult. FIA send this dossier to less than 100 parties, if they wanted they could've done it. IMO they are culpable even if they or one of their proxy/agent are not the 'direct' source of leak. Now, I go back to reading...

True and Mosley has suggested that the FIA look into doing this in future.

[nada12]

Wow, after reading this transcript I really understand what Piquet Jr means when he says Briatore doesnt have the slightest clue whats going on during races.

[Bluesmoke]

Wow, after reading this transcript I really understand what Piquet Jr means when he says Briatore doesnt have the slightest clue whats going on during races.

What in Yutaw taw are you babbling about?

[wj_gibson]

I found it interesting that the engineers did not all agree that Piquet Jr.'s telemetry was indicative of a deliberate accident. I'd been led to think (from this and other BBs) that it was mroe conclusive than that.

[TennisUK]

True and Mosley has suggested that the FIA look into doing this in future.

Surely the most likely culprit for the leaks were the FIA themselves?

[Juan Kerr]

So having read the whole radio transcript is that whole thing supposed to by all an act ?

[MegaManson]

Richard Woods would be my suspect

He is the ultimate expert in black arts and undermining people and using the media to discredit them, this stuff bears all the hallmarks of Woods' work

[nada12]

What in Yutaw taw are you babbling about?

Exactly

I love this part too

Flavio Briatore Just wait one second guys.
[Engineer] We’ve got a much better first sector to come on here.
Flavio Briatore Maybe, you know, maybe we need to quicken up now.

[Slick]

I found the radio transcript fascinating, not in particular to the current situation but as a general interest in the sport. Would be cool if race long recordings could be made and transcripts published for fans to read more regularly. It wouldn't be hard to redact confidential information, but from reading the extract in these documents, there isn't that much that needs redacting anyway.

[SpeedRacer`]

Fascinating stuff, which we had the entire race worth though!

[Juan Kerr]

Another thing intrigues me, the telemetry. A crash is caused because the driver did the wrong thing to keep the car on track, in other words he operated the car in an incorrect fashion to keep it on the track, so unless every crash that has ever happenned in the history of crashes has been intentional the telelmetry will always show that the driver did something different. IT DOES NOT PROVE THOUGH THAT HE DID IT ON PURPOSE. If you misjudge your braking point and go off your telemetry will be different form that lap, that has never ever shown that a crash was ever done on purpose so why should it now!

[R2D2]

He might have just sneezed and left his foot on the pedal? Do we have in-helmet moisture monitoring in F1?

[Juan Kerr]

Did he turn the wheel opposite lock precisely 0.1 seconds after the car broke away ? That would be a very important piece of evidence. Its hard to react at exactly the correct speed on purpose. Its a natural human reaction time not something you can do on purpose.

[salamin]

Flavio after crash: F***ing hell…my every f***ing disgrace, f***ing, he’s not a driver.

acting ****

[John B]

Another classic from #5 (radio transcripts, after crash):

[Engineer] the car is burning. I don’t know, uh, [Engineer].

Then there's

[inaudible] just run over a marshall.

(One assumes this means PK has run over to the marshall's, but interpreted/heard another way imagine the temporary panic as visions of manslaughter suits flash...

and finally

Sorry guys. I had a little outing. (reminiscent of De Cesaris' 'little spin' after barrel rolling a Ligier multiple times...

Edited by John B, 16 September 2009 - 21:59.

[ZZMS]

Did he turn the wheel opposite lock precisely 0.1 seconds after the car broke away ? That would be a very important piece of evidence. Its hard to react at exactly the correct speed on purpose. Its a natural human reaction time not something you can do on purpose.

this is actually exactly what they say have transpired from telemetry - at first PK instinctively let off the gas and than immediately applied almost 100% throttle.

[Just waiting]

Flavio after crash: F***ing hell…my every f***ing disgrace, f***ing, he’s not a driver.

acting ****

Of course he would say such.....what would you expect? He knows he is being listened to on the radio and being recorded, so what is he to say?
Something like

"Good job, perfect spot, Alonso could not have done better, thanks for a perfect crash..."


i think not.....

[salamin]

Of course he would say such.....what would you expect? He knows he is being listened to on the radio and being recorded, so what is he to say?
Something like

"Good job, perfect spot, Alonso could not have done better, thanks for a perfect crash..."


i think not.....

exactly, he's just overplaying his role a little, which makes it even more suspicious