Jump to content


Photo

New WRC cars


  • Please log in to reply
40 replies to this topic

Poll: New WRC format (45 member(s) have cast votes)

What should FIA do about WRC cars?

  1. from 2011 new WRC cars with 1600 turbo engines (9 votes [20.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.00%

  2. from 2011 S2000 cars in current spec/small changes (25 votes [55.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 55.56%

  3. leave current WRC cars for anothe few seasons and wait to see what happens (11 votes [24.44%])

    Percentage of vote: 24.44%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 sportgrafica

sportgrafica
  • Member

  • 66 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 17 September 2009 - 20:04

I was just wondering what would be the best way to bring WRC back on track. At the moment there are only 2 teams competing and they both decided to stay in the championship for the next few years. They are also building new S2000 cars to the current rules. FIA is talking about 1600 turbo engine cars, that at the moment don't exist. Is it not a bit stupid to change the rules again, bulid new cars if there's at least 5-7 different S2000 machines fighting in IRC which together with Citroen and Ford would make a great battle in WRC?

Wha do you think about it? What, keeping the good of the sport in mind, FIA decide?

Edited by sportgrafica, 17 September 2009 - 20:05.


Advertisement

#2 Victor_RO

Victor_RO
  • RC Forum Host

  • 5,695 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 17 September 2009 - 20:05

^ Get rid of the people who organize the WRC, make IRC the new WRC and don't muddle with it.

#3 FlatOverCrest

FlatOverCrest
  • Member

  • 2,823 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 17 September 2009 - 20:44

^ Get rid of the people who organize the WRC, make IRC the new WRC and don't muddle with it.


AMEN to that brother! :clap:

ISC has done more harm to the WRC than could have possibly have been envisioned. They started with best intentions and some good ideas, but then the "ivory tower" syndrome took over an certain idiots locked themselves away in their little rooms creating new rules, ways to fleece fans out their cash more and generally give ZERO consideration to giving the fans a championship they can support and enjoy the way rallying used to be, just with better safety now.

The idiot Chandler....was the worst appointment in the entire current FIA cabinet!

There is clearly a chapionship format thatis working and working with ever increasing popularity with every round and its NOT the current WRC...

I think keep the S2000 cars, allow them to have 300BHP and we have a winner.... then ....if manufacturers really want to downsize the engines, get them all to agree on a format...THEN announce the year that this will take effect.....

Rather than the idiot policy of select and engine, set the date for it to come into effect and then ask....."er....is anyone willing to enter this championship?"

GET RID OF THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hopefully with a revised S2000 forumla we could even see this beauty switch from WTCC to WRC with a 4x4 platform...

Posted Image

Edited by FlatOverCrest, 17 September 2009 - 20:54.


#4 katmen

katmen
  • Member

  • 798 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 17 September 2009 - 20:54

^ Get rid of the people who organize the WRC, make IRC the new WRC and don't muddle with it.

:up: I must admit IRC is so much entertaining....

#5 sportgrafica

sportgrafica
  • Member

  • 66 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 17 September 2009 - 20:56

AMEN to that brother! :clap:

ISC has done more harm to the WRC than could have possibly have been envisioned. They started with best intentions and some good ideas, but then the "ivory tower" syndrome took over an certain idiots locked themselves away in their little rooms creating new rules, ways to fleece fans out their cash more and generally give ZERO consideration to giving the fans a championship they can support and enjoy the way rallying used to be, just with better safety now.

The idiot Chandler....was the worst appointment in the entire current FIA cabinet!

There is clearly a chapionship format thatis working and working with ever increasing popularity with every round and its NOT the current WRC...

I think keep the S2000 cars, allow them to have 300BHP and we have a winner.... then ....if manufacturers really want to downsize the engines, get them all to agree on a format...THEN announce the year that this will take effect.....

Rather than the idiot policy of select and engine, set the date for it to come into effect and then ask....."er....is anyone willing to enter this championship?"

GET RID OF THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The only thing I would add to this is to allow works teams to run as many cars as they want with only 2 nominated scoring points for constructors champ.


#6 sportgrafica

sportgrafica
  • Member

  • 66 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 17 September 2009 - 20:58

:up: I must admit IRC is so much entertaining....


Yes, it is if it goes about the cometition, but the cars are not much entertaing to watch in reality - I think they need a bit more power.

Edited by sportgrafica, 17 September 2009 - 20:59.


#7 FlatOverCrest

FlatOverCrest
  • Member

  • 2,823 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 17 September 2009 - 21:05

Yes, it is if it goes about the cometition, but the cars are not much entertaing to watch in reality - I think they need a bit more power.


Yep...authorised 300BHP and I think we see performance on par with the current WRC machines, they are almost there now....jus need a little tweak...! :)

#8 ReAlien

ReAlien
  • Member

  • 330 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 17 September 2009 - 22:49

What makes IRC better than WRC as a championship?
I'm a fresh rookie fan in WRC, as for IRC, my lore is near zero.

#9 ezequiel

ezequiel
  • Member

  • 2,039 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 18 September 2009 - 00:48

^ Get rid of the people who organize the WRC, make IRC the new WRC and don't muddle with it.



IRC is not a wonder either... WRC is still much better...

#10 Scotracer

Scotracer
  • RC Forum Host

  • 4,473 posts
  • Joined: June 08

Posted 18 September 2009 - 01:09

I think keep the S2000 cars, allow them to have 300BHP and we have a winner.... then ....if manufacturers really want to downsize the engines, get them all to agree on a format...THEN announce the year that this will take effect.....


They're already 280-290BHP anyway so that wouldn't make any difference. Perhaps a smaller restrictor on the intake to boost torque? That's the only thing I see that needs changed.



#11 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 18 September 2009 - 02:21

Ummm, wheres the "OTHER" option??

#12 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 10,824 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 18 September 2009 - 02:22

Yep, the S2000 lack torque compared to WRCar, the power is much the same. Amazingly the WRCar only rev to 5500 rpm!

As I see it, just like Super Tourers the regs for WRCar are too free... after many years and especially lots of push for development from manufacturers hungry to win, the cost to design and construct a competitive car goes through the roof due to the high level of refinement and technology. It's "impossible" for new make like Suzuki to catch up, and the cars become very expensive for privateers to buy.

A more restricted (some spec parts to remove lightweight, highly optimized big $ componentry that no one cares about!) WRCar would be nice, but already there are so many S2000 - S2000 is that way to go. 30-40 cars on each rally fighting for victory. Privateers able to compete properly without being sold "detuned" cars to avoid risk to the points of Hirovonen and Sordo etc. :rolleyes:

I would keep requirement for X examples to be built and sold for a maximum price, to ensure plenty of cars go out to all the privateers. :up:

It's a puzzle why Citroen and Ford don't want this... they are the biggest teams and will still build the quickest car (even if FIAT, Skoda, Proton & Opel have head start)... and would they not find more customers (more $$$) if they are able to offer cars to buy that are same as those winning WRC rallies (as opposed to merely some lower class)!

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 18 September 2009 - 02:22.


#13 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 10,824 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 18 September 2009 - 02:26

Hopefully with a revised S2000 forumla we could even see this beauty switch from WTCC to WRC with a 4x4 platform...

Posted Image


To be fair it looks like Daewoo have been copying European manufacturers again... it's very similar to the Fiesta is it not, just more angular at the front (subtract the concept bodykit to compare of course). :) Meanwhile, their Daewoo/Chevrolet Cruze looks a lot like a BMW-copy IMHO...

#14 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 18 September 2009 - 02:35

I would keep requirement for X examples to be built and sold for a maximum price, to ensure plenty of cars go out to all the privateers. :up:


Yeah thats just great, continue to hand out advantages to large manufacturers - no. I am interested to know what you think is a reasonable "maximum price" by the way?

2WD is the answer - having grown up with rallying in the 60, 70 and 80's I have seen Factories have no huge advantages over privateers and each other as well as many manufacturers being able to afford to compete. Traction or lack of it is the great equaliser and will bring thrilling car attitudes back to the sport.

All you need is spec spacefame chassis in steel, <2.4 n/a engine rev limited, 5 speed box, minimum weight and spec aero. Bodyshell to be based around manufacturers specific models and dimension specific or larger if they choose.


#15 FlatOverCrest

FlatOverCrest
  • Member

  • 2,823 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 18 September 2009 - 03:18

They're already 280-290BHP anyway so that wouldn't make any difference. Perhaps a smaller restrictor on the intake to boost torque? That's the only thing I see that needs changed.


by definition I believe the S2000 cars are meant to have 250bhp...yet it is widely reported that they are in fact nearer 280bhp...SO make the official limit again 300bhp and guess what..we end up with engines at roughly 330bhp, exactly like the current WRC cars...

So yes... the slight increase should make some considerable difference...


#16 evo

evo
  • Member

  • 423 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 19 September 2009 - 13:27

Hopefully with a revised S2000 forumla we could even see this beauty switch from WTCC to WRC with a 4x4 platform...

Posted Image


To be fair it looks like Daewoo have been copying European manufacturers again... it's very similar to the Fiesta is it not, just more angular at the front (subtract the concept bodykit to compare of course). :) Meanwhile, their Daewoo/Chevrolet Cruze looks a lot like a BMW-copy IMHO...


Posted Image


All you need is spec spacefame chassis in steel, <2.4 n/a engine rev limited, 5 speed box, minimum weight and spec aero. Bodyshell to be based around manufacturers specific models and dimension specific or larger if they choose.


sounds like v8supercars' "blueprint" project

Edited by evo, 19 September 2009 - 13:33.


#17 Muppetmad

Muppetmad
  • Member

  • 7,679 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 19 September 2009 - 13:40

I don't think it's the cars or the costs that are really the problem.

WRC isn't very expensive compared to series like F1 and such. I know they're different, but if teams can afford to run in F1, why aren't they running in WRC?

The answer is simple. No coverage. Why would a sponsor want to sponsor something not many people will see? In Britain, WRC is on Dave. How many people have Dave, or even know it exists? A small minority. I have Dave, but I never know when rallies are on. It certainly isn't advertised at all.

Coupled with a not particularly large audience in America (the WRC is an incredibly European orientated series), there just aren't enough people watching.

You can't expect teams to come flooding in without good TV coverage - and that's what we need first. We need a company like the BBC or even ITV to buy the rights - that way we'll have consistent coverage, and it will be more appealing to sponsors.

It's the same thing that's happening with IndyCars on Versus - nobody pays for it, so nobody watches it. TV ratings on the races broadcast by ESPN were dramatically higher than those broadcast by Versus, and that is what is putting teams off joining.

Then again, I'm probably absolutely wrong :lol:

Edited by Muppetmad, 19 September 2009 - 13:43.


#18 Burai

Burai
  • Member

  • 1,735 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 19 September 2009 - 14:56

I don't think it's the cars or the costs that are really the problem.

WRC isn't very expensive compared to series like F1 and such. I know they're different, but if teams can afford to run in F1, why aren't they running in WRC?

The answer is simple. No coverage. Why would a sponsor want to sponsor something not many people will see? In Britain, WRC is on Dave. How many people have Dave, or even know it exists? A small minority. I have Dave, but I never know when rallies are on. It certainly isn't advertised at all.

Coupled with a not particularly large audience in America (the WRC is an incredibly European orientated series), there just aren't enough people watching.

You can't expect teams to come flooding in without good TV coverage - and that's what we need first. We need a company like the BBC or even ITV to buy the rights - that way we'll have consistent coverage, and it will be more appealing to sponsors.

It's the same thing that's happening with IndyCars on Versus - nobody pays for it, so nobody watches it. TV ratings on the races broadcast by ESPN were dramatically higher than those broadcast by Versus, and that is what is putting teams off joining.

Then again, I'm probably absolutely wrong :lol:


The thing is, they DID have good coverage. On BBC then Channel 4, then ITV. Decent, prime time programming, each day of the rally. Problem was, nobody watched it. Channel 4 paid big money for the rights and gave prime TV time to the sport back when we had Citroen, Ford, Peugeot, Subaru, Skoka, Mitsubishi, Hyundai and Toyota throwing massive amounts of money at the sport with the likes of Gronholm, McRae, Loeb, Sainz, Kankkunen, Makinen, Solberg and Burns all still competing. If you can't sell people on that, then you're never going to sell WRC.

The WRC is, and always was, a niche sport. It got hyped well beyond it's potential when ISC started selling the rights and they've had to learn where they truly stand the hard way. Costs have to come down to make the sport self-sufficient because the big broadcasters and big sponsors aren't going to come running with their cheque books to save the day. They've already been burned and they aren't coming back.

#19 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 10,824 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 20 September 2009 - 00:21

But if Colin McRae and Tommi Makinen are household names there is no reason why Loeb and Hirvonen can't be.

You'd have to say Mitsubishi, Hyundai and Skoda left as:

1) WRCar costs too much
2) Always poor results due to point (1) ... they don't have enough $ to make a competitive WRCar

If the cars are much cheaper (S2000).. lots of manufacturers, lots of driver, lots of privateers able to win (only fanatical Norweigians can get enough real sponsorship $ to run a WRCar... S2000 needs much less $ for the full car sponsorship... much more viable), much much closer competition... there is no reason why the interest couldn't return. :)

S2000 touring cars are slow, but on the rally stage they are okay, they are sufficiently quick to make a reasonable spectacle and 40 cars going for victory will really force the drivers to push the limits and do the best possible driving to get the results (or else be 8s off on a stage and down in 17th place!).

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 20 September 2009 - 00:23.


Advertisement

#20 Burai

Burai
  • Member

  • 1,735 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 20 September 2009 - 09:09

But if Colin McRae and Tommi Makinen are household names there is no reason why Loeb and Hirvonen can't be.


The sad truth is that if you mention the name Colin McRae to most people on the street, the first thing that comes to mind is "PlayStation". Outside of motor sport fanatics Colin was far more famous for his work with Codemasters than he ever was for his rallying.

#21 Matheen

Matheen
  • Member

  • 40 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 20 September 2009 - 09:21

A topic close to my heart. I think the FIA need to relax restrictions a bit on engine power/size and go back to longer. classic rallying - like the Safari. This can be achieved with a simultaneous reduction in costs by limiting use of exotic materials etc. The Kenya Rally Championsip allows non-homologated cars, but they receive a time penalty to negate the advantage of higher power. There's a guy called Ian Duncan who rallies a home built Nissan Patrol pick-up (that's right!) with about 500BHP against the usual Imprezas, evos etc and does very well. All this in a car that cost less than $100000 to build. Sometimes he uses a car based on a 1968 Mustang and gives the others a run for their money....needless to say, the fans turn out in droves.

Gp B type power, noise and excitement but modern safety standards and you have a winner. Alternatively, go back to the origins of rallying and allow any 'showroom' car but with a roll cage and free flowing exhaust.....



#22 PhilG

PhilG
  • Member

  • 483 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 20 September 2009 - 09:50

The top and bottom of it is that next to nobody cares any more.

What we need to get away from is the 'lets change things to save money'. Nothing saves money like running what you already have.

Numerous rule changes, like parts pairing for specific events, that were supposed to help with costs , were immediately followed by an E-mail to the team manager telling them how much more it was going to cost. Engines that were designed to do set KM limits , and then rebuilt at minimal costs , were now used past there safe mileage, and instead of selective replacement of low cost bits , they now ended up beyond use while the guy who could have rebuilt it has stood round with nothing to do , knowing it wont finish the next event.

After a while this starts to wear thin, and budgets that should do more, do less, and bits last less time and not more, and it goes on and on.

Once the FIA and ISC got there mitts on it and try to fix what wasnt broken, the top guys get fed up and leave , too many events, no free time, and you are left with a bunch of guys who nobody has heard of and no-one cares about, doing events that mean nothing, with second rate coverage.

I love the sport, it was my living , but it just lost its way .



#23 Burai

Burai
  • Member

  • 1,735 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 20 September 2009 - 10:34

The top and bottom of it is that next to nobody cares any more.

What we need to get away from is the 'lets change things to save money'. Nothing saves money like running what you already have.


But what if you don't already have something to run? That's the problem WRC has right now. It's not that Ford and Citroen can't afford to run WRC spec cars forever but that no-one else can afford to come in.

#24 sportgrafica

sportgrafica
  • Member

  • 66 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 20 September 2009 - 13:59

But what if you don't already have something to run? That's the problem WRC has right now. It's not that Ford and Citroen can't afford to run WRC spec cars forever but that no-one else can afford to come in.


It's not just the money. WRC cars are so sofisticated now that you need a lot experience to build a car that competitive straight away. And manufacturers don't want to pay to be 5th o 6th...

Edited by sportgrafica, 20 September 2009 - 13:59.


#25 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 20 September 2009 - 15:20

. All this in a car that cost less than $100000 to build.



Oh REALLY??

ONLY $100,000???


WTF is wrong with you people, have you got a $100 grand to spare? You talk like this because factories now spend $millions and that $100,000 is something akin to chicken feed - do you even have $20,000 to spare for a years rallying?? Do you have $10,000?? I bet you don't, it's just numbers on a computer screen to most of you and has no reality to what it means when you've never pulled it from your own pocket.

I grew up when anybody could go competitive rallying and even get noticed by works teams on a working mans budget and where a crash maybe meant missing an event but now it may put a privateer out for the year or for ever so they drive accordingly - slow.

Todays rally cars are boring beyond belief to watch compared to slower but spectacular high powered RWD.

Go to Youtube and look around.

#26 SPBHM

SPBHM
  • Member

  • 1,064 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 20 September 2009 - 15:35

I agree, make it cheaper, simpler... 2wd would help.

#27 ivanalesi

ivanalesi
  • Member

  • 1,771 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 20 September 2009 - 19:18

and much more powerful :)

cheapracer is right about the spaceframe chassis, car bodies are making this sport so expensive. I've watched recently the Australian Offroad Championship, what an entertaining championship - all the cars were some home-built monsters with huge V8s, making so much noise... it's what WRC should be about, monster specials.

#28 FlatOverCrest

FlatOverCrest
  • Member

  • 2,823 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 20 September 2009 - 20:32

With respect to Cheap, yes we would all like rally cars to be cheaper, however you are mixing apples with pears in your arguement and I'll explain my thoughts as to why.

I have competed in National rallying since 1995, my first car was a Renault Clio Williams Group N3. I struggled and scraped a budget together of about 20k to race for a year with some sponsorship and it was hard. Mainly because on my second ever event, I was running as course opening car at Longcross, not even bloody competing and having opened the stages in the morning, came to open the stages in the afternoon, which involved the infamous "Tank test" hills and the one we were using is a "1in4" gradient...i.e. bloody steep. Well I had a great guy sitting next to me who did not warn me about this hill (Nick Starky, a certified lunatic as well);) and we hit this hill which is about 70 yards long in 2nd gear. 3/4 of the way up the slope the hill curves away slightly and so at 70mph I began to take off!!! (Front wheel drive, no traction...and nothing but momentum was not going to end well!)

I believe we hold the height and distance jump for the slope to this day, where our wheels were 5 feet off the ground and we flew through the air for 45 feet before gravity took over and the car burried it's nose into the flat table top run off area, where I managed to turn the car and carried on, on the stage, with a very wonky steering wheel but the car sounded good and was running so we carried on.

What I didnt realise was that we not only bent the whole suspension up and back about 3 inches and shattered the legs, we also cracked the sump guard in two, puncturing the sump...thus we were now leaving a trail of oil behind the car without a clue anything was wrong other than maybe the steering alignment being out...3/4 of a mile later we ran out of oil at 120mph on the back straight and the engine siezed....

The point of this little story relates to Cheaps point and that little "off" cost me two events in the championship and the chance to win the class in the championship as the money used to reapir would have been used in those two events...so I understand all about not having enough money to compete.

Rallying is not cheap, it never has been and never will be. Yes you can go club airfield rallying for probably about 8k a year plus car....but your arguement that 100k is way too expensive for top level rallying has NOTHING to do with club rallying.

I do not want club level drivers in the world championship and therefore your argument of what is appropriate for people here to pay versus a potential world championship budget is where I believe you are comparing apples with pears.

To give you a comparison. It cost me about 30k to run the Escort Cossie (very basic Group A spec, almost Group N+) for the championship year in 07. This is tyres, fuel, entry fees, insurance, maintenance, on event service crew, etc. THAT was also running a tight budget. We were using Pirelli rubber, but a set of tyres almost lasted me a day, whereas we were up against guys in WRC Impreza's and 6R4's putting new tyres on every stage. Yet despite this were running about half a second off the likes of John Indri in the 6R4...

Turn now to the WRC and the IRC.... WRC cars should NOT be driven by club level racers IMHO... yet we still see the wealthy businessmen playing with their toys and fair play to them for earning enough to do that...

BUT with the S2000 cars... you have a car with a base cost of around 150k, which for a top level motorsport competition vehicle is not outrageous....YES this does exclude many club racers, but then they have local championships to prove themselves and if good enough, they need to learn how to present themselves to sponsors in order to then generate the additional budget required to compete.

The fact is, car manufacturers have been the life blood of world championship rallying since the 1960's!! Currently the IRC is proving that a number of manufacturers see the S2000 forumla as good value for money....with some tweaking on the power, these cars provide the opportunity for the WRC S2000 cars to provide a spectacle similar to that of the late 90's when we had great competition in the world championship.

If I want to watch "spaceframe" high power racers, I go to the local greyhound stadium and watch the autocross racers and diret oval racers and rally cross racers throwing their cheap self built rockets around the track....

BUT THESE are not what we expect to see in the very pinnacle of rallying! manufacturers want people to relate to the car they buying just as they did in their THOUSANDS with the Subari Impreza in the mid 90's and nearly every other car being driven by a fan was an Impreza....

Ensuring the cars become more affordable is CRITICAL.....however, this does not mean the world championship cars must be CHEAP!

#29 FlatOverCrest

FlatOverCrest
  • Member

  • 2,823 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 21 September 2009 - 21:36

With last weeks announcement by Dave Richards with regards to Prodrive wanting back in to the WRC but with a new manfacturer...
http://news.bbc.co.u...lly/8255586.stm

I am wondering who it might be as Subaru seems to have been rules out?

Clearly talks are well underway with someone... I doubt Seat, VW and Audi will be allowed to mess things up for Skoda as it seems those brands are set up for;
Seat - World Touring Cars
Audi - Sportscars
VW - Dakar Enduro Racing...
Skoda - Rallying...

I am going to try and make some enquiries and see if we can get a hint as to who it might be? I was wondering if the new Volvo C30 might be an option? However I would suspect this would require Ford to have sold it's interest maybe?

Possibly Honda? maybe they see the S2000 style of championship ideal for their Civic market? Richards has connections obviously from his time running BAR....

Will be interesting to see...

#30 sportgrafica

sportgrafica
  • Member

  • 66 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 21 September 2009 - 21:46



I heard some rummors about new Mini.. For me it doesn't really matters which manufaturer it's going to be as long as they will be competitive..[/quote]

Edited by sportgrafica, 21 September 2009 - 21:48.


#31 FlatOverCrest

FlatOverCrest
  • Member

  • 2,823 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 21 September 2009 - 22:20

I heard some rummors about new Mini.. For me it doesn't really matters which manufaturer it's going to be as long as they will be competitive..


Well the mini would make a tonne of sense if the 1600cc Turbo route is going to be the standard...also the new Coupe...is a pretty mean looking thing!
Posted Image

However, I would have thought if BMW were considering the WRC they would first offer the role to Mike and the guys at Cooper Works. I looked at running a Mini once, basically a tarmac rally version of the 24 hour cars, which having driven one of those, would have been an absolute hoot to drive...

Edited by FlatOverCrest, 21 September 2009 - 22:20.


#32 sportgrafica

sportgrafica
  • Member

  • 66 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 21 September 2009 - 22:54


Posted Image

Imagine it with all the S2000 aero stuff on - it would look amazing.

It would make a lot of sense for BMW from marketing point of view. As long as the car is succesfull, I would put some well known face in it, perhaps someone from UK ( the only name I can think of is Meeke ) and it can be the Impreza story - every rally fan will want to drive a Mini..

The only thing is you're probably right about Cooper Works guys.. Well I just hope that Richards knows what he's talking about.

Edited by sportgrafica, 21 September 2009 - 22:54.


#33 sportgrafica

sportgrafica
  • Member

  • 66 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 21 September 2009 - 22:57

And one more thing... Don't you think new Civic might be a bit oversized for a S2000 car?

#34 FlatOverCrest

FlatOverCrest
  • Member

  • 2,823 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 21 September 2009 - 23:38

And one more thing... Don't you think new Civic might be a bit oversized for a S2000 car?


For the Mini....imagine a Prodrive 3 car team of Solberg, Meeke and Martin! ;) Now that would inject some fire! Alas it may be but a dream, unless of course it is in partnership with Cooper Works?

As to the civic...
Posted Image

It actually has a really nice footprint... the wheels are right over the four corners of the car, so it should handle very well. Again they have been running front wheel drive Civics in the IRC, so it would not be a huge leap....



#35 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 10,824 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 22 September 2009 - 00:59

For the Mini....imagine a Prodrive 3 car team of Solberg, Meeke and Martin! ;) Now that would inject some fire! Alas it may be but a dream, unless of course it is in partnership with Cooper Works?


A) Why not previous Prodrive driver Atkinson who was quite close to Solberg?
B) Does not the Subaru effort show that Prodrive are second-rate and have no idea what they are doing, with consistent mediocre performances (it would not be remarkable if 07/08 Impreza was slower than 03 Impreza...) and no idea how to improve the car despite reasonable budget!

#36 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 10,824 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 22 September 2009 - 01:01

It actually has a really nice footprint... the wheels are right over the four corners of the car, so it should handle very well. Again they have been running front wheel drive Civics in the IRC, so it would not be a huge leap....


Civic is closer in size to current WRCars though. Ideally they would race a Jazz (whats it called in Europe?) sized car, but without such a dodgy high COG design!!! Ford and Citroen are going to the Fiesta and C3 to get the weight close to the minimum for the S2000/1600T cars.

#37 FlatOverCrest

FlatOverCrest
  • Member

  • 2,823 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 22 September 2009 - 01:11

A) Why not previous Prodrive driver Atkinson who was quite close to Solberg?
B) Does not the Subaru effort show that Prodrive are second-rate and have no idea what they are doing, with consistent mediocre performances (it would not be remarkable if 07/08 Impreza was slower than 03 Impreza...) and no idea how to improve the car despite reasonable budget!


Well Atkinson was indeed not bad, but opinion suggests that Meeke is the faster driver and with regards Martin, he was lined up to take a drive as part of a 3 car team when Subaru pulled the plug.

With regards Prodrive...I dont think anyone would ever call them second rate! Pretty much every series they have run in, they have produced winning cars, from the Aston GT1's, the Ferrari 550's, i think they even ran the Honda Touring Cars for a while if I remember correctly, in addition to the Subaru WRC team...
They are a world class motorsport organisation similar to Penske here in the US, the fact with the Subaru was that it was extremely outdated and by the time the latest hatchback turned up...the writing was on the wall. The Impreza and the Lancer were perfect cars for their time, but it became clear the new hatchbacks seemed to be the way to go, judging by results. But then again rallying has swung from saloon to hatchback over and over again...

I think that while the civic is certainly one of the bigger cars, if the weight is right it could work very well, just as the Impreza did against the Peugeot 206 WRC. The smaller cars have a tendency to kick their backsides into the air a bit more, so looking at the civic, it looks a nice wide, steady platform...but I agree on face value it looks big, but then again the MG S2000 is not small either...

#38 evo

evo
  • Member

  • 423 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 22 September 2009 - 05:06

if driving dynamics played a factor in the demise of the sedan(ish) based lancer and impreza (along with the rise of the pug 206 and 307, citreon c4 etc - hatchback based), i don't see why mitsu and scooby didn't use the mirage/impreza hatch as the base.

admittedly, mitsu was pretty much on the back foot due to developing the grp A machine right to the very end (like fezz/macca through 08/09)

was that just trying to make a viable road platform work in the WRC rather than the other way around?


#39 FlatOverCrest

FlatOverCrest
  • Member

  • 2,823 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 22 September 2009 - 06:01

if driving dynamics played a factor in the demise of the sedan(ish) based lancer and impreza (along with the rise of the pug 206 and 307, citreon c4 etc - hatchback based), i don't see why mitsu and scooby didn't use the mirage/impreza hatch as the base.
admittedly, mitsu was pretty much on the back foot due to developing the grp A machine right to the very end (like fezz/macca through 08/09)
was that just trying to make a viable road platform work in the WRC rather than the other way around?


Absolutely....in fact Ralliart were in fact toying with the idea of the "Colt Evo" as a replacement for the Lancer Evo
Posted Image

But I believe your last sentence is correct, I think they were trying to get the platform they wanted to sell most of, to work, rather than bring in a new model....

However rumour has Mitsubishi working on a new EVO...using the 2009 Colt platform, if they do in fact return to rallying:
Posted Image

Edited by FlatOverCrest, 22 September 2009 - 06:03.


Advertisement

#40 FlatOverCrest

FlatOverCrest
  • Member

  • 2,823 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 22 September 2009 - 06:19

Some of you fellas will love this thing....

Possibly your perfect dream rallycar! ;)

and I have to say...hard not to like it....



Edited by FlatOverCrest, 22 September 2009 - 17:41.


#41 Matheen

Matheen
  • Member

  • 40 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 23 September 2009 - 11:37

Oh REALLY??

ONLY $100,000???


It's all relative - a bod standard, production Subaru WRX from the dealer in Kenya costs almost $60000 due to local taxes etc.

I agree that's it's still very expensive, but the days of someone buying a second hand Volvo PV544 and 'doing it up' over a few weeks then going on to beat Works teams (as happened in the 60's and 70's are gone, due to the control FIA has on the sport.

Classic rallies still have a huge following in some places, and they aren't cheap either. The Escort MkII used by Waldegaard to win the Classic East African Safari a couple of years ago cost almost as much as a modern Gp N car. It was a great rally though - watching a 911 vs Escort vs 240Z brought back the good old days.

The best solution is to have a budget cap but few rules(except crash protection), so creativity is rewarded without compromising safety.