149 replies to this topic

[Nustang70]

I've heard before that Piquet was very unkind to other drivers such as Senna or Prost, but he had a special level of dislike for Mansell. Can anyone clue me in?

[canon1753]

Mansell was supposed to be his number 2. Mansell was faster (for the most part) and more popular with the English for his fighting spirit.

So, Mansell, I suppose its fair to say, made Nelson (first half of 1986) look bad or slow, and made him work a lot harder than he had expected. Since there were no team orders at Williams, even though Nelson had a number 1 clause in his contract, you can argue having to fight against Mansell cost Nelson the 1986 title and made 1987s much tougher.

I suspect that when Frank and Patrick write their memoirs the Mansell/Piquet pairing will be some interesting chapters....

Edited by canon1753, 21 September 2009 - 04:03.

[paulhooft]

One Keke Rosberg had a huge dislike for this Nelson P... too...
Pch

Mansell was supposed to be his number 2. Mansell was faster (for the most part) and more popular with the English for his fighting spirit.

So, Mansell, I suppose its fair to say, made Nelson (first half of 1986) look bad or slow, and made him work a lot harder than he had expected. Since there were no team orders at Williams, even though Nelson had a number 1 clause in his contract, you can argue having to fight against Mansell cost Nelson the 1986 title and made 1987s much tougher.

I suspect that when Frank and Patrick write their memoirs the Mansell/Piquet pairing will be some interesting chapters....

[Antti Salmi]

One Keke Rosberg had a huge dislike for this Nelson P... too...
Pch

Keke wasn't too fond of Mansell either...

[Victor_RO]

Keke wasn't too fond of Mansell either...

Maybe during 1984. In 1985 he was actually quite helpful at times, an example being in the European GP. In 1984 they did have quite a lot of hairy moments on track, particularly wheelbanging a few times in Dallas.

Edited by Victor_RO, 21 September 2009 - 07:12.

[goffer]

As indicated Piquet expected to get no1 treatment at Williams - he was after all a 2 x world champion by then, and Mansell had pretty sketchy form to say the least - so when Mansell started giving him the hurry up Piquet got nasty - even to the point of making derogatory comments about Nigels' Mrs .... and at Hungororing he conspired to keep certain set up info (re diff settings) to himself, pissing Nigel's side of the garage off no end. (shades then of Fernando & Lewis @ McLaren 2007)

Overall Nelson Piquet never really struck me as very pleasant person ...... certainly Alan Jones, as irreverent a F1 driver as there has ever been, took great delight in beating him.

Plus the two of them were very different characters - Piquet the larikin ladies man, Mansell the dour, serious, whinging Pom, with barely a relaxed bone in his body - they were polar opposites.

Edited by goffer, 21 September 2009 - 08:33.

[Stephen W]

Since there were no team orders at Williams, even though Nelson had a number 1 clause in his contract...

I suspect it wasn't so much that Piquet didn't like Mansell more that he thought that Williams let him down and didn't reign in the Number 2 driver.

It seemed odd to me that having paid Piquet the Number 1 salary why Williams seemed hell bent on having Mansell as champion!

[goffer]

I suspect it wasn't so much that Piquet didn't like Mansell more that he thought that Williams let him down and didn't reign in the Number 2 driver.

It seemed odd to me that having paid Piquet the Number 1 salary why Williams seemed hell bent on having Mansell as champion!

;)

I think Piquet displayed his dislike for Mansell by calling his wife plain & ugly = pretty unfriendly behaviour !!??

Williams were / are a team relatively unsentimental about drivers - through their history they have endeavoured to let the racers race - whoever wins out so be it. Although Piquet came into 1986 as clearly the 'man most likely to succeed' when Mansell outdrove him Williams refused to intervene - all that matters is a Williams winning. Though Mansell being the epitome of the British bulldog wouldn't have done him any harm in that circumstance !

[kayemod]

...all that matters is a Williams winning.

I think that's true, Sir Frank has often said that the Constructor's title means more to him than the Driver's one. On Piquet Senior though, hasn't he always been a controversial figure? When he was racing, some loved him and some hated him, he was almost worshipped at Brabham, they called him 'The Indian', less so at Lotus as his career went into decline, and decidedly 'mixed' at Benetton, probably depending on his most recent performance, but as far as I know Frank didn't have too many problems with him, they seemed to get on pretty well for the most part. One story I do remember is that following his road car crash, Nelson went to some lengths to find an adapted phone that Frank would be able to use, an act greatly appreciated and often mentioned at the time by Sir Frank.

It has often seemed to me that the side of NP that the world sees is just the side that he wants them to see, I don't think that PR has ever been one of his priorities.

Edited by kayemod, 21 September 2009 - 09:17.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Stephen W
.....It seemed odd to me that having paid Piquet the Number 1 salary why Williams seemed hell bent on having Mansell as champion!

Williams didn't pay Piquet's salary...

Let's put it all into perspective, shall we? Williams had the gun chassis and Honda had the good engines, a great combination if you wanted a chance at the Championship. Piquet was chosen by Honda to win that title, paid a wad of money to take the drive and get the chance and then found Mansell in the way.

So with the best car and the best engine at his command, Piquet was finding opposition from a quarter he didn't expect. Other comments (above) about Williams' team orders, two previous titles and all that stuff is quite true, but Piquet was 'anointed' by Honda and expected to have it all his own way.

As for his personality, with Mansell, Jones and a number of others finding him not to their liking, maybe there was a reason for this?

[f1steveuk]

he was almost worshipped at Brabham,

Hmmm? I wouldn't say that was universal!

[kayemod]

Hmmm? I wouldn't say that was universal!

Yes, I meant in general, so maybe I should have qualified that statement, certainly not by the cleaning staff and the ones who looked after his racesuits...

[f1steveuk]

Yes, I meant in general, so maybe I should have qualified that statement, certainly not by the cleaning staff and the ones who looked after his racesuits...

Fair enough! There was a fair amount of "love and loathe" as well, as Nigel de Strayter thought he was a great driver, and a nice bloke, UNTIL Nelson would pull one of his stunts, and the love would go to loathing in seconds!

I can imagine the cleaners and racesuit washers were a tad concerned, and as for PK's "collection" under tha dash that Nigel found, Urghhhhh!!

[potmotr]

Plus the two of them were very different characters - Piquet the larikin ladies man, Mansell the dour, serious, whinging Pom, with barely a relaxed bone in his body - they were polar opposites.

Well put!

[Ross Stonefeld]

I reckon most drivers, especially team-mates, resented his overly dramatic antics. Andretti was no fan either.

[sonar]

In 1984 I had a very good friend who was a Piquet fan.
He also had a similar unpleasant character.
Always trying to provoke a reaction from other people by saying the most nasty things about them or their friends or family.
But in times of need he really was the one who would help me out and was there for me.
I suspect it was much the same with mr. Piquet.
I think only the people that he really liked got to see his good side.

[Henri Greuter]

Williams were / are a team relatively unsentimental about drivers - through their history they have endeavoured to let the racers race - whoever wins out so be it. Although Piquet came into 1986 as clearly the 'man most likely to succeed' when Mansell outdrove him Williams refused to intervene - all that matters is a Williams winning. Though Mansell being the epitome of the British bulldog wouldn't have done him any harm in that circumstance !

Williams was very sentimental about Alan Jones. When he was still with Williams the expression was that "The team is Jones' " As Reutemann found out in Las Vegas '81. The team celebrated Jone'race win mer than ruing the loss of the world title...
Other then that you statement pretty much says it all. Once Jones was gone the team became as focussed on the team and much less caring for a certain driver up to the extend that even the defending World champion was permitted to leave so a new driver could prove that the Wolrd champion had become so because of being in a Williams.
Who won didn't matter that much as long as WGPE won.
Even in 1982 when Keke had become world champion Frank uttered his disappointment about the team being only fourth in the constructors title....

Henri

[RA Historian]

Title of thread: "Why did Piquet loathe Mansell?"

Quick answer: "who didn't?"

Tom
(Standing by for inevitable flack....)

[Chezrome]

Title of thread: "Why did Piquet loathe Mansell?"

Quick answer: "who didn't?"

Tom
(Standing by for inevitable flack....)

Flak is written with 'k'.

You deserve a lot of flak for that.

[kayemod]

Flak is written with 'k'.

You deserve a lot of flak for that.

I'm in a show-offy mood, so "Flugzeugabwehrkanone" to you all.

[f1steveuk]

I'm in a show-offy mood, so "Flugzeugabwehrkanone" to you all.

That can't be the German for 'flak' surely?

[Giraffe]

Quick answer: "who didn't?"

Well his poor long suffering wife for one! He's the sort of guy who could make a bishop kick in a stained glass window! A man who could light up a room simply by walking out of it. I'd rather watch paint stay wet than be in that man's company.
And yet an awesome driver with little natural ability, but a stupendous capacity for learning, and by doing so he built himself into a really worthy World Champion. Much respect for the man, but for all his achievement and wealth, I'm glad I'm not him!

Edited by Giraffe, 21 September 2009 - 14:16.

[f1steveuk]

Airplane defense cannon? Nice!!

Back on thread, as a well known and respected figure in F1 once said, in my ear shot (not actually to me)

"Mansell, a real man, brave, courageous, commited, I'd have all the time in the world for him, but then he has to ruin it by getting out of the car"

To me, that sums him up.

[kayemod]

That can't be the German for 'flak' surely?

That comment ranks alongside what George W Bush is reported to have once said, that the French don't have a word for 'entrepreneur'.

[RStock]

Title of thread: "Why did Piquet loathe Mansell?"

Quick answer: "who didn't?"

Tom
(Standing by for inevitable flack....)

Agreed . Loathe isn't a strong enough word . Hate , despise , I wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire are some that come to mind .


Nelson tried to get into Nige's head with his comments , and it pretty well worked . All is fair in love and war I suppose , and as Sir Frank once said "Formula One drivers are ruthless bastards because they have to be"

But Nelsons remarks about Nige's wife were bush league , low class and below the belt . Nige should have given him a sound thrashing .

Sir Frank has some remarks on the situation here -

[f1steveuk]

That comment ranks alongside what George W Bush is reported to have once said, that the French don't have a word for 'entrepreneur'.

I aim to please!

If the we have de ja vue, what do the French have?

[flat-16]

Even when NP had 2 WDC titles to his name in 86/67, Senna seemed to command more supporters at home in Brazil. I witnessed this for myself and it struck me as somewhat odd at the time. Maybe this isn't a reflection on NP's personality, but it's certainly odd - despite Senna's obvious ability.

Justin

[Chezrome]

I aim to please!

If the we have de ja vue, what do the French have?

A certain 'je ne sais quoi?'



On topic: I remember reading an interview in Grand Prix International with Mansell in 1986 (or thereabouts, just after when he had just won his first Grand Prix) and at that moment he really seemed like a nice, modest bloke. Did he change after that, or was he unbearable twit all his life?

[Phil Rainford]

I think that's true, Sir Frank has often said that the Constructor's title means more to him than the Driver's one.

Which is just as well really as the "in-fighting" between Mansell and Piquet in 1986 let Prost sneak the Driver's World Championship

PAR

[john aston]

As the old saying goes, judge the art not the artist.Mansell was a tough streetfighter of a racer, but also was gauche and paranoid .But God he was quick.If I wanted to have a driver as a dinner party guest it'd be a Damon Hill, an Alesi , a Rahal or - if possible- a Revson.But the sport is about what you do on the track- end of.

[David McKinney]

If I wanted to have a driver as a dinner party guest it'd be a Damon Hill, an Alesi , a Rahal or - if possible- a Revson.But the sport is about what you do on the track- end of

One of the surprises of my life was in just such a dinner-party situation with Mansel. Perfectly affable and charming. But I knew then as I know now, he wasn't always like that

[RA Historian]

Flak is written with 'k'.

You deserve a lot of flak for that.

..........even some I didn't expect!
Tom

[Giraffe]

Even when NP had 2 WDC titles to his name in 86/67, Senna seemed to command more supporters at home in Brazil. I witnessed this for myself and it struck me as somewhat odd at the time. Maybe this isn't a reflection on NP's personality, but it's certainly odd - despite Senna's obvious ability.

Justin

The Brazilians are very canny when it comes to sussing out where their loyalties lie with their own drivers. Poor old Reubens, rightly or wrongly is a laughing stock with his home supporters..............

[RA Historian]

I have to agree with the above comments. Expanding on my short and flippant comment above, I will quote what I said about a year ago on another thread, but about Mansell.

"In the car he could be and often was absolutely brilliant. Out of the car he was insufferable."

I was able to observe him a number of times in his two years in CART. It is interesting that his first year, when he won five events and the title, he was the center of attention--which, of course, suited him completely. The second year, when things did not go well at all, he reverted to his petulant, pouting, obnoxious personality and the crowds drifted away. He had already lost the support, and more importantly the respect, of his teammate and his team early on. When Mansell won the Michigan 500 in mid 1993 he pulled one of the all time classic dying swan acts in victory circle. Teammate Mario Andretti's displeasure and disgust was evident. From that time on Mario was very dismissive of Mansell, and on more than one occasion simply referred to him as "that son of a bitch!" Team owner Paul Newman remarked that Mansell was one of the great actors of all time. It did not take long for him to lose the respect of the team also, as they were sick and tired of his 'the car is rubbish and I had to carry it on my back' rhetoric. In short, he wore out his welcome rather quickly.

An absolute jerk, but man, he could race!

Having said all that, Piquet, on the other hand, had more than his share of jerk in him. He had a impish sense of humor, but I do not think he knew when to quit. Too often he went over the top, either by design or ignorance. As Robby says, his remarks about Nigel's wife went far beyond anything that is acceptable in a civilized world. One can easily see how the two of them could never get along. Chalk and cheese and all that.

Senna and Prost, Mansell and Piquet-----certainly not the same as Moss and Fangio or Stewart and Cevert......

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 21 September 2009 - 21:10.

[giacomo]

Even when NP had 2 WDC titles to his name in 86/67, Senna seemed to command more supporters at home in Brazil. I witnessed this for myself and it struck me as somewhat odd at the time. Maybe this isn't a reflection on NP's personality, but it's certainly odd - despite Senna's obvious ability.

Not that odd. One of them did lots of PR work in Brazil, the other one took the piss out of the journos.

[RStock]

The Brazilians are very canny when it comes to sussing out where their loyalties lie with their own drivers. Poor old Reubens, rightly or wrongly is a laughing stock with his home supporters..............

How do they feel about Piquet Sr. ?

Do they still have love for him after what he said about Senna ? Anyone know ?

[Tony Matthews]

An absolute jerk, but man, he could race!

I remember that the general reaction of the American motor sport press was - "Why do you Brits say such terrible things about Mansell? He seems great, fantastic racer and easy to talk to!" Followed, a year later, by "We see what you mean..."

[WDH74]

I can imagine the cleaners and racesuit washers were a tad concerned, and as for PK's "collection" under tha dash that Nigel found, Urghhhhh!!

Anyone care to elucidate on this one? A quick Google 'round the interwebs doesn't throw up any answers. Feel free to PM me the answer if it's unsuitable (ha! I made me a funny!) for a family friendly forum.

-William

[Peter Morley]

Anyone care to elucidate on this one? A quick Google 'round the interwebs doesn't throw up any answers. Feel free to PM me the answer if it's unsuitable (ha! I made me a funny!) for a family friendly forum.

-William

At the Revival Robs Lamplough's mechanic John told me that he worked on Piquet's car when he was at Williams, said he was a great bloke and a serial practical joker.
When lined up on the grid with everyone around the car being terribly serious PK would gesture to a problem down in the cockpit, having inserted his head into the cockpit he'd discover the problem was a gaseous emission from the driver... or PK would point out a fluid leak which turned out to have emanated from the driver...

[Tim Murray]

... and for the "collection" see this earlier post from Steve:

Working at Formula One Management, I had the the chance to find out an awful lot from the ex Brabham boys who Bernie kept on into his next phase. One, Piquet's chief mechanic told me of many arguments with the driver regarding the puddles left in the seat. He also used to keep a collection of, er, well the findings from his nose, added to each other under the dash panel. and got very upset when the lucky "pile" was cleaned off. yuk!!!!!

[kayemod]

At the Revival Robs Lamplough's mechanic John told me that he worked on Piquet's car when he was at Williams, said he was a great bloke and a serial practical joker.
When lined up on the grid with everyone around the car being terribly serious PK would gesture to a problem down in the cockpit, having inserted his head into the cockpit he'd discover the problem was a gaseous emission from the driver... or PK would point out a fluid leak which turned out to have emanated from the driver...

The 'fluids' were a fairly regular thing, but at least once there were 'solids' involved...

[Allan Lupton]

"In the car he could be and often was absolutely brilliant. Out of the car he was insufferable."

I seem to remember a similar sentiment being voiced by Frank Williams . . . .

[David Force]

I remember that the general reaction of the American motor sport press was - "Why do you Brits say such terrible things about Mansell? He seems great, fantastic racer and easy to talk to!" Followed, a year later, by "We see what you mean..."

During Nigel's greatest days we raced a lot in Italy and often wondered why they revered him so much and christened him El Leone. Eventually we twigged, it was because, like the Americans, the Italians simply couldn't understand what Mansell was saying ! They didn't hear the endless whinging instead they just saw the on track performances of one of the great RACERS of recent years...

And anyone who saw Piquet hanging on the the Brabham BMW on full boost on a qualifying lap through Paddock bend at Brands would have no doubt about his bravery and commitment.

A shame they had to get down and personal in the gutter at times.

Just remind me what happened to that very tall ex girlfriend of Nelson's ?

[Doug Nye]

NM at his best was a great racing animal. It was out of the car that he came to be regarded as - ahem - singularly unlikable.

One team's chief mechanic told me dispassionately that nobody within the team minded a driver who whinged, but what they couldn't stand was one who whinged in a Birmingham accent...

Sorry Brummies ... but perhaps the rest of the English-speaking world will know what he meant.

DCN

[Ross Stonefeld]

It sounds like an elephant seal, I reckon.

[ensign14]

The accent of Shakespeare. We can't help it if you all speak some strange perversion of the Bard's tongue.

[frp]

Mansell was born in Upton-on-Severn, a long way from Birmingham. He's definitely not one of us, Ens.

Edited by frp, 24 September 2009 - 19:11.

[Mal9444]

I aim to please!

If the we have de ja vue, what do the French have?

Isn't it de ja vu? Or do I just think I've seen that before, somewhere?

Edited by Mal9444, 25 September 2009 - 09:32.

[lowdrag]

It's all déjà vu anyway! As an aside, I played a pro-am golf tournament with Mansell at Woburn once. On the 7th he explained to the crowd exactly how he was going to play the drive, then promptly topped the ball left into a laurel bush. not one of the team helped him look for the ball, so fed up were we all. I suupose you could call it a fait accompli really.

[SEdward]

As someone once said about Mansell: "Great in the car, grates out of the car".

In a clear case of Schadenfreude, I do remember jumping around and whooping with laughter when his wheel nut dropped off in Hungary in 1987.

How did they ever lose the championship in 1986?

Edward