82 replies to this topic

[JensonF1]

I am very sad to hear, not so much about Flavio's lifetime ban - which in itself is EXTREMELY harsh, but I am sorry to see F1 lose someone of Pat Symonds talent.

Here is one of the most respected engineers of recent times, and a manager right up there with Brawn.

Pat Symonds was offered immunity and suddenly he's handed a 5 year ban. That doesn't make sense.

Technical staff cannot stay out of a job for that amount of time and simply return later. Motorsport and F1 especially would have moved on too much.

It is a sad way to end a career. I am not saying what he did in Singapore wasn't bad, but a sense of perspective is needed here.

I certainly feel he's been made an example of so that the FIA could send a very strong message into the F1 community about this kind of behaviour. Yes it's important to maintain the integrity of F1, but I feel as an engineer and as a man Pat Symonds had a lot of integrity, one moment of madness in Singapore aside.

Can he appeal?

[mkay]

These things can make or break a career...

[Risil]

Career-ending? Surely Mr Symonds can get a job working in NASCAR or ALMS, or any other series working outside of FIA-sanctioning?

And I'd imagine Flav would fit right in at the Ducati MotoGP organisation.

[Clatter]

No sympathy whatsoever. He had the chance to take immunity but didnt.

[MegaManson]

He never accepted the immunity

He gambled black and it came up red

[JensonF1]

Why didn't he accept immunity? Is he crazy? Or just too loyal to Flav?

Edited by JensonF1, 21 September 2009 - 12:38.

[teewoods]

Why didn't he accept immunity? Is he crazy? Or just too loyal to Flav?

Both! And he deserved longer than 5years

[DanDectis]

I just want to point out that at the worst this is career ending but only in regards to FIA sports...there are plenty of other racing leagues not involved with the FIA...

[Rob]

No sympathy whatsoever. He willingly took part in a conspiracy to fix a race.

[pinnacle racing]

Why didn't he accept immunity? Is he crazy? Or just too loyal to Flav?

Maybe it was really Symond's idea?

[JensonF1]

Maybe it was really Symond's idea?

Do they have any evidence? It's pretty cut and dry that Flavio and Symonds instigated it, but why does Flavio get a lifetime ban and Symonds a 5 year one? Based on what evidence have they apportioned the blame? Because so far, I don't see this amount of detail in the evidence, unless Alonso spilled the beans?

Piquet and Alonso by the way, deserved at least some punishment.

Anyway, on a separate topic:

Here is a theory for you....cheating is okay if cheating becomes the game.

In F1 people push the limits of the rules. Putting a driver, marshals and spectators in danger for the sake of an advantage in the race is and always will be unacceptable, but just how bad is it to cheat?

If everybody is cheating, then the bending of rules becomes the game. It is a skill in itself to bend the rules, to be creative and to push hard to win.

What I don't accept is when pushing too hard endangers people's lives, obviously.

But I think Schumacher parking it at Monaco, Symonds 'fixing it' for Alonso or Schumacher ramming Hill off the road in Adelaide takes a certain amount of skill in itself and adds excitement, intrigue, drama and controversy to what can sometimes be a very politically correct sport.

In football, for example this weekend with United V Manchester City, Fergie bent the rules to his team's advantage and they scored 6 minutes into 4 minutes of added time. He did this by skilfully timing a sub, and the ref also added time on to account for the earlier goal celebration. But in the end the best team won (unfortunately for me. I'm a City fan).

Much as I love / hate them, I do admire the larger characters and their refusal to play it by the book.

[Seanspeed]

Top-level F1 technical director suddenly available to hire?

Yea, I dont think this is any way a career ender.

May just retire, though. He's probably built up a nice-sized bank account by this time. He's a little on the older side. Seems like a great opportunity to me.

[expert]

Am I right in thinking he can still work in IndyCar if he desires? (or NASCAR for that matter).

[Seanspeed]

Am I right in thinking he can still work in IndyCar if he desires? (or NASCAR for that matter).

Sure.

[shonguiz]

He deserved it, and btw i never understood his attitude, he did exactly everything to fouck up everyone, him and renault, he didn't take the immunity but he didn't deny anything, without this, Renault could have easily escaped the punishement.

[engel]

Do they have any evidence? It's pretty cut and dry that Flavio and Symonds instigated it, but why does Flavio get a lifetime ban and Symonds a 5 year one? Based on what evidence have they apportioned the blame? Because so far, I don't see this amount of detail in the evidence, unless Alonso spilled the beans?

Flav got a permanent ban cause he acted like an idiot in Monza (I m innocent, I have the full support of Renault, Renault have started legal action against the Piquets etc etc). Basically he lied after the Spa interviews.

Symonds didn't

[DanDectis]

He deserved it, and btw i never understood his attitude, he did exactly everything to fouck up everyone, him and renault, he didn't take the immunity but he didn't deny anything, without this, Renault could have easily escaped the punishement.

No I think he did OK. Flav really put them in it according to the FIA statements. The reason they gave Flav life but Symonds "just" 5 years is because Flavio vehemently denied everything.

[JensonF1]

He admitted it and that it was to his eternal shame that he was part of it.

This according to the FIA accounts for his 5 year ban instead of a lifetime ban.

But I still like the guy and think its harsh on someone as talented and (previously) respected as him.

F1 was his life. Nascar & Indycar no consolation prize.

[Kucki]

Pat Symmonds always was a cheater. Illegal TC and Launch Control in Schumachers car in the early 90s, Schumachers car losing extreme weight during a race in 1995, letting a driver crash out to benefit from it. That guy doesnt deserve any respect and should be banned forever. He got caught cheating several times, who knows how often he did cheat without anybody finding out

[engel]

He admitted it and that it was to his eternal shame that he was part of it.

This according to the FIA accounts for his 5 year ban instead of a lifetime ban.

But I still like the guy and think its harsh on someone as talented and (previously) respected as him.

F1 was his life. Nascar & Indycar no consolation prize.

From the FIA announcement:
"In determining that such instructions should be effective for a period of five years the World Motor Sport Council has had regard: (i) to Mr. Symonds’ acceptance that he took part in the conspiracy; and (ii) to his communication to the meeting of the World Motor Sport Council that it was to his “eternal regret and shame” that he participated in the conspiracy. "

Can't figure out why Pat ignored the immunity on offer and just did a "communication" (presumably a formal letter) to the WMC

[Force Ten]

Ultimately Flavio was the boss and Symonds answered to him. Had Flavio not agreed it would have been just another crazy idea. So the buck stops at Flavio.

Edited by Force Ten, 21 September 2009 - 13:09.

[jcbc3]

Pat Symmonds always was a cheater. Illegal TC and Launch Control in Schumachers car in the early 90s, Schumachers car losing extreme weight during a race in 1995, letting a driver crash out to benefit from it. That guy doesnt deserve any respect and should be banned forever. He got caught cheating several times, who knows how often he did cheat without anybody finding out

I concur.

Symonds got of lightly. Too lightly imo.

[patreze]

Career-ending? Surely Mr Symonds can get a job working in NASCAR or ALMS, or any other series working outside of FIA-sanctioning?

he doesnt need to go in US, he can work in LMS or DTM

Edited by patreze, 21 September 2009 - 13:14.

[patreze]

Do they have any evidence? It's pretty cut and dry that Flavio and Symonds instigated it, but why does Flavio get a lifetime ban and Symonds a 5 year one?

its based on hyerarchy, briatore is capo di tutti capi, while symmonds is only middle management

Edited by patreze, 21 September 2009 - 13:17.

[expert]

Can't figure out why Pat ignored the immunity on offer and just did a "communication" (presumably a formal letter) to the WMC

Genuine contrition? Accepting culpability and wanting to go out with a shred of dignity?

[primer]

I don't understand why Pat Symonds is always hyped as this 'brilliant' engineer and manager. Purely on the basis of recent results, he does nothing special for Renault. And the guy is a cheat.

[chrisj]

I concur.

Symonds got of lightly. Too lightly imo.

I couldn't agree more. 5 year ban is a light punishment.

[Jackmancer]

Guess we will see him on Monster.com in 2014.

[Burai]

Even if he took the immunity, who's going to want to hire him within F1? His name is now trouble and the scrutiny you'd be under having him work for you would be immense.

[JensonF1]

Never trust a man who wears a gold chain.

[brunopascal]

No sympathy whatsoever. He willingly took part in a conspiracy to fix a race.

Exactly, I have no sympathy for Symonds. 5 year ban was light IMO, although it's probably enough to end his career in F1.

[JensonF1]

My head is still spinning over the immunity thing.

How can the FIA go from offering him immunity and letting him carry on in F1 to punishing him so harshly it ends his career.

And WHY didn't Symonds take the immunity option? Why why why?? Was he bribed not to?

[Force Ten]

I don't understand why Pat Symonds is always hyped as this 'brilliant' engineer and manager. Purely on the basis of recent results, he does nothing special for Renault. And the guy is a cheat.

Well he was 'somewhat' responsible for their success in 2005 and 2006. That makes him more brilliant than several other people working in F1 right now.

[glorius&victorius]

he was in on the conspiracy (although he might have a baby face)

btw... that whole flock around Briatore was corrupt like hell:
Symonds, Walkinshaw... who knows what Brawn and MS have been conspiring together with Briatore, Symonds, Walkinshaw in those Benetton days....

[F1Johnny]

My head is still spinning over the immunity thing.

How can the FIA go from offering him immunity and letting him carry on in F1 to punishing him so harshly it ends his career.

And WHY didn't Symonds take the immunity option? Why why why?? Was he bribed not to?

He probably didn't take it, because he may have been forced to reveal not just information on Singapore but on other issues too. He might have implicated other people in the team and he didn't want that on his shoulders.

He got off lightly. As did Piquet. In the context of the punishments handed out, Piquet should have gotten a 3 year ban had he not gotten immunity. Funny thing too, I think he would be more likely to get a drive in 3 years had he served a ban.

[Burai]

My head is still spinning over the immunity thing.

How can the FIA go from offering him immunity and letting him carry on in F1 to punishing him so harshly it ends his career.

Because that's the point of immunity. Why would you offer someone immunity if the punishment they are supposed to get isn't harsh?

[bob sacramento]

My head is still spinning over the immunity thing.

How can the FIA go from offering him immunity and letting him carry on in F1 to punishing him so harshly it ends his career.

And WHY didn't Symonds take the immunity option? Why why why?? Was he bribed not to?

To make a point to the next guy that is offered immunity that you'd better take it or else.

I admire the guy for at least showing some loyalty and not ratting out Flavio

We dont know what really what happened, did Symonds persude Flavio and NP or was it NP or was it Flavio. Maybe Favio was against it to start with or kept in the dark, who knows.

[Force Ten]

who knows what Brawn and MS have been conspiring together with Briatore, Symonds, Walkinshaw in those Benetton days....

Who knows? It's not exactly a close guarded secret that a fully functional traction/launch control software was on Michael Schumacher's 1994 Benetton that was just "never activated, scout's honor!" - as Ross Brawn testified. So, everybody knows.

[pedrovski]

Do they have any evidence? It's pretty cut and dry that Flavio and Symonds instigated it, but why does Flavio get a lifetime ban and Symonds a 5 year one? Based on what evidence have they apportioned the blame? Because so far, I don't see this amount of detail in the evidence, unless Alonso spilled the beans?

Piquet and Alonso by the way, deserved at least some punishment.

Anyway, on a separate topic:

Here is a theory for you....cheating is okay if cheating becomes the game.

In F1 people push the limits of the rules. Putting a driver, marshals and spectators in danger for the sake of an advantage in the race is and always will be unacceptable, but just how bad is it to cheat?

If everybody is cheating, then the bending of rules becomes the game. It is a skill in itself to bend the rules, to be creative and to push hard to win.

What I don't accept is when pushing too hard endangers people's lives, obviously.

But I think Schumacher parking it at Monaco, Symonds 'fixing it' for Alonso or Schumacher ramming Hill off the road in Adelaide takes a certain amount of skill in itself and adds excitement, intrigue, drama and controversy to what can sometimes be a very politically correct sport.

In football, for example this weekend with United V Manchester City, Fergie bent the rules to his team's advantage and they scored 6 minutes into 4 minutes of added time. He did this by skilfully timing a sub, and the ref also added time on to account for the earlier goal celebration. But in the end the best team won (unfortunately for me. I'm a City fan).

Much as I love / hate them, I do admire the larger characters and their refusal to play it by the book.

Your far too naive, as I was and I've been following F1 since the late eighties. This was all about max getting rid of Briatore hence the ridiculous immunity offered to symonds who was the main planner of it.

[Buttoneer]

Sad, but I think he deserved it.

[potmotr]

Sad, but I think he deserved it.

Afraid I agree.

And Symonds had been implicated in many shady incidents over the years.

[postajegenye]

I'm sad to see him go, but I don't feel sympathy, I'm disappointed.

[Snap Matt]

I'm sad to see him go, but I don't feel sympathy, I'm disappointed.

Yes, he did seem as though he would have more integrity.

[EVO2]

Like most British F1 enthusiasts I feel ashamed that a fellow Brit has taken part in this appalling act of cheating.

Briatori I can understand but Pat Symonds not. At least he had enough honour left not to save himself by ratting on Flavio.

The five year ban is fair in the circumstances as is the life ban for Flavio.

The suspended sentence on Renault was also fair but it does show that the McLaren $100m fine was grossly disproportionate as well as particularly vindictive.

Flavio simply left the door wide open for Moseley to settle an old score by finishing him off.

[Atreiu]

So, will Renualt pull out or not?

[EVO2]

So, will Renualt pull out or not?

I doubt it, after all they would be leaving under a huge cloud - staying in allows them to put the problem behind them.

Also they are locked into the new concorde agreement so would have to sell the team. Are there any likely buyers out there at the moment ?

[Buttoneer]

Like most British F1 enthusiasts I feel ashamed that yet another fellow Brit has taken part in this appalling act of cheating.

Just a small change...

But of course there were three perpetrators.

[Bouncing Pink Ball]

Deserved. A one year or multi-year ban is standard punishment for cheating in many sports. It's common practice to ban athletes and team principles when this type of thing happens (see cycling, athletes, etc). OTOH, I find Flavio's punishment unusually harsh.

[Tenmantaylor]

I think the OPs argument is more emotive than factual. Briatore is the ageing playboy who hires and fires top racing drivers (and Piquet Jnr) at whim, been involved with many underhand deals and tactics down the years. Symonds is the honest salt of the earth greasy mitted chief engineer that has had his name dragged through the mud. Unfortunately the truth has come out and Pats involvement cannot be overlooked. Pat was involved with many of the suspected cheatings of Briatores past aswell as this present.

Im sure pat has earned enough over the last 25 years to see him through the next 5 years if he cant find something in another high technology sector. Even in the circumstances Im sure he's still highly employable in aerospace or high engineering sectors at managerial level.