25 replies to this topic

[anthony says]

We have staggered grids so that the pole man is ahead of number two on the grid, who is ahead of number three, who is ahead of number four etc. But where you have a clean side and a dirty side, it doesn’t work.

On Sunday, Rosberg (3) easily got ahead of Vettel (2). Alonso (5) famously got ahead of Webber (4), Barrichello (9) passed Kovalainen (8), Button (11) passed Nakajima (10) and Buemi (13) passed Raikkonen (12). That’s five out of six odd-numbered starts passing the man ahead of them on the grid. Which makes a bit of a mockery of qualifying.

Also on Sunday Heidfeld going to the back of the grid suddenly put Barrichello and Button on the clean side, Raikkonen on the dirty. So having got lucky, they ended up 5th and 6th, he was 10th. If it had stayed the way they qualified, no way would Button have been 5th, he would probably have been behind Nakajima and Raikkonen the whole race. That’s how powerful the clean/dirty side differential is.

So why stagger the grid on circuits where there is such a clear dirty side? Staggering the grid just makes the dirty side problem worse, so why do it? If the slots were equal, so e.g., Vettel had been alongside Hamilton, maybe Rosberg wouldn’t have been able to overtake, etc. It’s completely stupid for qualifying third to be better than qualifying second, but it’s only because of staggered grids. So can anybody give me a good reason why we have them on clean/dirty circuits?

[ensign14]

Grids are stupid anyway. You don't line up the runners in a 100m race giving Usain Bolt a head start just cos he was faster in the qualifying rounds.

[JPW]

Grids are stupid anyway. You don't line up the runners in a 100m race giving Usain Bolt a head start just cos he was faster in the qualifying rounds.

Yes lets make the start/finish straights 150m wide so all the cars can start next to eachother

[pgj]

All drivers know that there is a clean and dirty side of the track yet there is never an effort by them to clean the dirty side during practice sessions. They probably do not want to get dirt into their tyres on short runs but on longer runs it would not take many laps to make a difference.

[RoutariEnjinu]

Maybe there should be a burnout machine that lays rubber equally over all the starting grid

A bit like a road sweeper, or one of those machines that resurfaces an icerink!

I bet the fans would enjoy the sight, sound and most importantly smell!

[ensign14]

Yes lets make the start/finish straights 150m wide so all the cars can start next to eachother

It would be much fairer. And would make for interesting first corners.

The problem is not so much the stagger side-to-side but the stagger front-to-back. Indeed does it make any sense to talk about "the third row" any more? The cars do not start side-by-side. 6th is the same distance from 5th as it is from 7th (I think). Grids are more a 1-1-1-1-1 line-up, staggered for the sake of safety so that one stalled car does not lead to everyone behind being concertina-ed up. But it would make just as much sense to replace the stagger with lines across for 1st, 2nd and so on and let the driver choose where on that line he starts and take that risk.

In the past it was a lot closer as well. You could start 15th and be in the lead by the first corner. The gap between the first four or five rows, encompassing up to 18 cars, would not be so great as the gap between 1st and 8th today.

Still, I'd go further. Abolish qualifying and just line them up in reverse championship order. Let's see how long it would take the Technical Working Group then to come up with an overtake-helpful formula...

[MinT]

Grids are stupid anyway. You don't line up the runners in a 100m race giving Usain Bolt a head start just cos he was faster in the qualifying rounds.

You would do if they all ran in one lane and he couldnt overtake the runner in front.

[Don_Humpador]

Hmm, I read this thread title as 'Staggered Girls'.

Note to self : Must make appointment with doctor's.



On topic, I don't have a problem with staggered grids, but the clean/dirty sides of the grid can be a bit of a race-killer, though I'm not sure what you can do about it really, other than equalising that part of the track somehow either by washing it before the race (err) or cleaning the dirty side in another way. Don't really know.

[Kooper]

Maybe there should be a burnout machine that lays rubber equally over all the starting grid

A bit like a road sweeper, or one of those machines that resurfaces an icerink!

I bet the fans would enjoy the sight, sound and most importantly smell!

Piquet Jr to drive F1 Zamboni in 2010!

[ensign14]

You would do if they all ran in one lane and he couldnt overtake the runner in front.

Thing is, someone would think "hey, it might make it a bit more interesting if someone could overtake...let's get on to that pronto."

[JPW]

It would be much fairer. And would make for interesting first corners.

It would also make for crappy spectating at the start/finish line and huge pile ups at turn 1

But it would make just as much sense to replace the stagger with lines across for 1st, 2nd and so on and let the driver choose where on that line he starts and take that risk.

Or just keep the stagger and let the fastest driver chose his favoured starting position then driver 2 choses then driver 3 and so on.

Still, I'd go further. Abolish qualifying and just line them up in reverse championship order. Let's see how long it would take the Technical Working Group then to come up with an overtake-helpful formula...

True that would be quite an incentive for the TWG but I like (low fuel) quallifying so no thank you.

[ch103]

Doesnt the pole winner get to decide which side of the grid they start on? Then second place by default is the other side?

Its something that has always been a part of F1, except with todays level of technical advancement, the slight difference of a clean side versus a dirty side is magnified immensely.

I do recall a couple GP's ago, SPEEDtv, in the USA, highlighted Vettel doing burnouts on the start finish straight in front of his starting spot to reduce the wheelspin caused by a dirty line.

An alternative, albeit a bad one, would be to have a "green flag rolling start" ala US racing.

I say no changes. Keep it as is, the starts are exciting.

[stevewf1]

Drivers used to "switch" sides when lining up for the start. If I recall, it was the pole-sitter's option(?) This practice probably stopped when the staggered grid came in.

Regarding the infamous Senna/Prost first corner crash at Suzuka 1990, here's a quote from Autocourse 1990-91...

The trouble began on race morning. At the drivers' briefing, the stewards reiterated the organizers' decision not to move pole position from the right to the left. On the Wednesday before, Senna had requested that pole be moved to the cleaner side of the track and Prost, ironically as it turned out, had agreed with him. The officials refused because the grid positions had already been marked out, with pole on the right to correspond, in the traditional manner, with the first corner.

[Madras]

All drivers know that there is a clean and dirty side of the track yet there is never an effort by them to clean the dirty side during practice sessions. They probably do not want to get dirt into their tyres on short runs but on longer runs it would not take many laps to make a difference.

It would waste a set of tyres, and other drivers wouldn't bother so they gained advantage in practice. The only fair way is for the FIA to clean it properly before the race.

[Madras]

Doesnt the pole winner get to decide which side of the grid they start on? Then second place by default is the other side?

Eh, no...

[Kalmake]

All drivers know that there is a clean and dirty side of the track yet there is never an effort by them to clean the dirty side during practice sessions. They probably do not want to get dirt into their tyres on short runs but on longer runs it would not take many laps to make a difference.

Because they don't know which side they will start! Back when there was Sunday warm-up they would run over their grid spot every lap trying to clean it.

[Colombo]

Up until the 1980 or 1981, IIRC, th grids were not staggered - people on the same row started one next to each other. A few years ago, the stagger was increased. I have no idea why, especially considering that little overtaking occurs after the first few corners.

GC

[MoebiusPT]

All drivers know that there is a clean and dirty side of the track yet there is never an effort by them to clean the dirty side during practice sessions. They probably do not want to get dirt into their tyres on short runs but on longer runs it would not take many laps to make a difference.

They used to do it, when you had FP3, on Sunday mornings before the race. I guess this rotine ended some years ago with these qual format changes.
I wonder if a F1 team could pay a GP2 team to do more laps on the dirty side of the start straight? hehe

[ATM_Andy]

Classic Le-Mans starts would be better.

[potmotr]

Classic Le-Mans starts would be better.

There's be a bit of buckling going on I'd imagine.

[ATM_Andy]

There's be a bit of buckling going on I'd imagine.

Nah, you can buckle as you drive, shhh ;).

[Radoye]

Grids are stupid anyway. You don't line up the runners in a 100m race giving Usain Bolt a head start just cos he was faster in the qualifying rounds.

Yes lets make the start/finish straights 150m wide so all the cars can start next to eachother

Even then some gridslots would be better than the others, depending on the first turn. The insidemost position will have an advantage over the outsidemost.

This could be somewhat negated with a very long straight (like, 10 km) which progressively narrows on both sides, but this would favor the gridslots in the center.

But, a 300 km straight 150 m wide could do it.



(Yes, i am aware that the post i quoted was tongue-in-cheek; so is mine!)

[anthony says]

Up until the 1980 or 1981, IIRC, th grids were not staggered - people on the same row started one next to each other. A few years ago, the stagger was increased. I have no idea why, especially considering that little overtaking occurs after the first few corners.
GC

Thanks, I thought it was until about then.

My point in starting the thread is that reverting to starting alongside would make for a better and fairer start at those tracks where there is a 'dirty side' problem.

I asked whether anybody could suggest a sensible reason why the staggered grid is used on those tracks, and nobody has come up with anything.

[alecc]

Thanks, I thought it was until about then.

My point in starting the thread is that reverting to starting alongside would make for a better and fairer start at those tracks where there is a 'dirty side' problem.

I asked whether anybody could suggest a sensible reason why the staggered grid is used on those tracks, and nobody has come up with anything.

It's a very interesting thread and question, but I think, there are much more serious problems in the F1 now than the start, that in fact, is quite unjust, but it keeps in suspense too. Overtaking, more battle between teams (not only between two of them), politics, *-gates, tracks, those things, and more, that I not remember right now, seems more important.

[Rob G]

Yes lets make the start/finish straights 150m wide so all the cars can start next to eachother

Land rush!!!

[Louis Siefert]

Piquet Jr to drive F1 Zamboni in 2010!

wasn't Hekki just photographed training for the position in Hungary