42 replies to this topic

[D.M.N.]

So, today we seen quite a few incidents at the Degners in Japan - anyone think they will be reprofiled for next year? IMO, I think the gravel trap will be replaced with a tarmac gravel trap - although would that have stopped the cars from hitting the wall - or is a case of having a bigger 'trap'?

[undersquare]

Well tarmac is more effective at slowing the cars than gravel, and doesn't need a high kerb to contain the gravel that launches the car. I think these with the strip of astroturf at the edge of the track to make them slower are excellent.

[wingwalker]

That's pretty likely. I just hope they won't install a chicane there, like in Spain.

[Captain Tightpants]

I think the bigger problem with Denger is the shape of the run-off area. It's very restricted by the geography of the circuit, and there's very little in the way of space, particularly on the outsde of the second corner.

[The Truth]

D.M.N., on Oct 3 2009, 10:08, said:

So, today we seen quite a few incidents at the Degners in Japan - anyone think they will be reprofiled for next year? IMO, I think the gravel trap will be replaced with a tarmac gravel trap - although would that have stopped the cars from hitting the wall - or is a case of having a bigger 'trap'?

Gravel was fine there since the 60s, so it should be fine now but of course we know it will be changed because the sport has become to santified that the idea of drivers being punished for mistakes and actually hitting something, is simply no longer tolerated. I see rubens is already crying about the track being too dangerous. I expect some major revisions to ensure the drivers never hit anything.

[primer]

Hope not! if anything they should do away with tarmac traps, drivers have been using them far too freely.

Alternatively, make it a rule that whenever a driver visits the tarmac trap (all four wheels off the paved circuit and in the trap) they have to do a 10 second stop-n-go penalty.

[MaxFan1]

the issues seems to be with the kerbs at the first degner. kova took the corner well enough but was bouncing around like crazy

[Spunout]

I saw nothing wrong with Degner curves. Quite contrary.

Get rid of the kerbs because they make the corner more challenging? That´s insane. Also, I did not see particularly dangerous crashes there. Alguersuari was the only one to hit the wall at moderately high speed.

MaxFan1; Kova did not take the corner well enough, otherwise he would have managed to stay on track. Just like most drivers today. The fact that making two mistakes actually ended his qualifying sessions (instead of "oops, went 10 meters off the track...no biggie) is no reason to change anything, either.

They might want to check out the last corner, but Degner is ok.

Actually, let me rephrase that: Degner curves are awesome

Edited by Spunout, 03 October 2009 - 10:34.

[The Ragged Edge]

D.M.N., on Oct 3 2009, 11:08, said:

So, today we seen quite a few incidents at the Degners in Japan - anyone think they will be reprofiled for next year? IMO, I think the gravel trap will be replaced with a tarmac gravel trap - although would that have stopped the cars from hitting the wall - or is a case of having a bigger 'trap'?

I can see that happening.

[learningtobelost]

I don't think the run off is big enough, concrete or otherwise. There's nothing that can be done about that due to the layout of the flyover, so really they'll either live with it or ruin the corner by putting in a chicane or something.

[Kristian]

Its good to see Suzuka has not sanitised itself with asphalt runoffs, and suddenly Degner is getting a reputation as an awesome corner due to the accidents. It also means that tomorrow if drivers make a mistake in the race, they will be punished with a lot of time or damage, unlike much of today's tracks.

I'm sure some corners on Tilke's tracks would have similar reputations, but due to being surrounded by car parks there are never any incidents to give them reputations.

Spa is an example of a track that's been made much easier for drivers due to the introduction of asphalt. Eau Rouge is a corner that lives off past reputation; no incidents of note have happened there in years. Same with Blanchimont and Pouhon.

[Alonzo]

wingwalker, on Oct 3 2009, 07:20, said:

That's pretty likely. I just hope they won't install a chicane there, like in Spain.

This is what happens when medium drivers go to a proper racing track, not the slow corners circuits F1 is nowdays used to.

Degner is too challenging for F1, I suppose.

[Don_Humpador]

Perhaps something should be done, but I really hope they don't turn it into those horrible tarmac runoffs. IMO corners like Pouhon or Spoon curve have had their character taken away.

If you make a mistake, you should be punished for it, but the gravel traps should at least do their job of slowing the cars down a bit.

Can't believe Barrichello is crying about it today - he's been racing for over a decade with plenty of gravel traps and he hasn't told the world how dangerous it all is at every race.

[Hippo]

The gravel looked a bit "concrete" today. As if it was compacted with a steam-roller. The cars were hardly slowed down by it. Maybe they should just have it "deeper"? Surely cars would get stuck in it then, but that's better than having em crash or installing a lame chicane.

Besides, I was positively surprised about the tyre barriers. They held back the cars quite good in Degners without getting penetrated.

[Rob G]

Hippo, on Oct 3 2009, 09:13, said:

The gravel looked a bit "concrete" today. As if it was compacted with a steam-roller.

Or a lot of intense rain...

I see no need to change the Degner curves. The kerbs are there to be used, not abused. Drivers should remember that the track is the black stuff, not the black stuff, the red and white stripey stuff, the hard green stuff and the black stuff beyond that.

[muramasa]

maybe they can use softer and more flexible and adhesive sand.

paved degner (or any corners actualy) is ridiculous and can be more dangerous actually rather than safer.

sth should be done to anything, as everything can be better and efforts should be made, but resorting to easy and hasty solution is the worst thing to do.

[Kristian]

They should used banked gravel like at Monza, i.e. it slopes upwards.

[glorius&victorius]

I was searching mansell's 92 crash at that corner and found his 87 crash:



looked horrible....

even piquet looked shaken:

Edited by glorius&victorius, 03 October 2009 - 14:36.

[Victor_RO]

glorius&victorius, on Oct 3 2009, 17:34, said:

I was searching mansell's 92 crash at that corner and found his 87 crash:



looked horrible....

That happened in the Esses, not at Degner.

[glorius&victorius]

Victor_RO, on Oct 3 2009, 15:36, said:

That happened in the Esses, not at Degner.

i know!

[Dragonfly]

Honestly I am sick of knee jerk reactions.
This track is one of the few remaining which make the difference between racing drivers and chauffeurs.

Why no one asks isn't it that without testing and limited number of races drivers are losing or cannot develop their skills?

[Koo]

I am actually enjoying these old school tracks where you get penalised for driver errors. Too many tracks nowadays is full of tarmac runoffs and quite literally too forgiving and thus boring.

Edited by Koo, 03 October 2009 - 14:45.

[Brawn BGP 001]

No, gravel punishes mistakes.

I want more gravel traps, not less.

[Kucki]

As we saw today in Degner even a high speed straight on hit without much braking at all into the tyre barrier is no problem in an F1 car. The driver just walks away. The corner is safe enough for F1 crashes, if they would put tarmac around the corner it will become more dangerous for motorbike accidents. If you have fallen off the motorbike at high speeds you would want to tumble along in a gravel trap and not on tarmac.

[milestone 11]

Tarmac runoffs should be banned forthwith.

[Hellenic tifosi]

The drivers made a mistake and paid the price.

That's exactly how a race track should be made

[Turn 1]

If anything the cars should be changed, not the tracks. Why should classic corners be destroyed just to make F1 safe. F1 is just one racing series at the end of the day.

[pRy]

One vote here for "don't change a bloody thing".

[Fudce]

The key to remember about the crashes at the Degner Curves is that none of the drivers were injured. The cars were damaged, but they hit the wall, of course they were damaged!

Pretty much all of the accidents started on the first part of Degner, and they slid wide onto the gravel and ended up in the wall at the second part. That is a long accident but it looks like a short runoff.

Improve the gravel trap, maybe similar to Monza as somebody said, but the corner itself isn't overly dangerous.

[raiseyourfistfor]

I really hope not

[OSX]

Kimi Raikkonen in Turun Sanomat:

"This is still a nice track and it takes a lot to get a good lap time. It's a completely different system compared to the new circuits where you can make a mistake and it doesn't affect you. Here it is like it's supposed to be. The car must remain on track or otherwise you hit a wall, Raikkonen said."

http://www.ts.fi/f1/uutiset/78688.html

[SmercH]

They shouldn't. But I am afraid they will

And in a few years we will get another situation, when taking route outside track limits on more grippy run-off tarmac would actually be the fastest way of making that turn

[ashnathan]

Today was a wake up call to all the drivers, the first track we go to that is more of an actual race track with no tarmac run off and half the field bins it, all tracks should revert back to gravel its more difficult.

And they shouldn't change anything, if drivers keep crashing there then its simple, don't go so fast through that one corner. Great track, entertaining session in a weird way.

[se7en_24]

OSX, on Oct 3 2009, 21:30, said:

Kimi Raikkonen in Turun Sanomat:

"This is still a nice track and it takes a lot to get a good lap time. It's a completely different system compared to the new circuits where you can make a mistake and it doesn't affect you. Here it is like it's supposed to be. The car must remain on track or otherwise you hit a wall, Raikkonen said."

http://www.ts.fi/f1/uutiset/78688.html

I didn't realise Kimi could do irony.

[Rob G]

SmercH, on Oct 3 2009, 18:00, said:

And in a few years we will get another situation, when taking route outside track limits on more grippy run-off tarmac would actually be the fastest way of making that turn

That situation has existed ever since they redesigned Hockenheim several years ago.

[Supersleeper]

D.M.N., on Oct 3 2009, 21:08, said:

So, today we seen quite a few incidents at the Degners in Japan - anyone think they will be reprofiled for next year? IMO, I think the gravel trap will be replaced with a tarmac gravel trap - although would that have stopped the cars from hitting the wall - or is a case of having a bigger 'trap'?

The gravel traps should remain - the issue with them was the rain that fell and compacted them - had the gravel traps been "ripped" after the rain - their retardation would have been normal and slowed the drivers down to a level you would have normally expect. It was a lack of raking that caused the issue, not that the gravel traps are fundamentally flawed.
Perhaps moving the barrier back, combined with tarmac might be a better solution. I'm sure that the FIA and the GPDA will discuss this issue and you might find a different looking corner next season.

[slideways]

Don't change it.

[travbrad]

Hellenic tifosi, on Oct 3 2009, 10:17, said:

The drivers made a mistake and paid the price.

That's exactly how a race track should be made

QFT. They need to get rid of tarmac runoff areas, not add them.

That being said, I'm sure the whole track will be surrounded by runoff areas wider than the track itself next year, if recent trends are anything to go on

[jondon]

Regarding both gravel traps and tarmac runoffs...
Why not have an incredibly sticky coating applied to a solid run off area instead of the outdated gravel traps?
Something so progressively tacky as to arrest a car should it leave the track, and ... the MEN will stay on track and the boys will end up like flies stuck on flypaper...
The skill of a true racer should be primarily be to keep the car completely on the race track while still pushing to extremes.... Hopping over kerbs would still be the spectacle it has been, but only the experienced and more talented drivers will be able to do so consistently over the course of a race.
Makes a little bit of sense to me at least.

Edit: all four wheels off circuit should result in being beached in such a high tack substance.

Edited by jondon, 04 October 2009 - 01:14.

[V8 Fireworks]

jondon, on Oct 4 2009, 01:11, said:

Something so progressively tacky as to arrest a car should it leave the track, and ... the MEN will stay on track and the boys will end up like flies stuck on flypaper...

Won't that just provide a HUGE amount of grip and extra traction, allow them to drive on and accelerate with much more grip than the proper race track. The point of racing car tyres and the rubber they put on the track is that they are literally "sticky" is it not?

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 04 October 2009 - 01:37.

[pingu666]

and how do you maintain that tacky surface? muck will stick to it and it will become slick...

[Aubwi]

How about pits filled with styrofoam peanuts?

Oooh... or those colorful plastic balls that children play in.

Edited by Aubwi, 04 October 2009 - 07:42.

[raiseyourfistfor]

Unfortunately what might happen is that they put a chicane in degner 1