31 replies to this topic

[dbw]

hi folks...i'm new here and hope someone out there can help. i'm restoring a 1930 type 35b bugatti,engine#200t,chassis#4948.my research indicates it was entered at monaco by messr. bugatti as a team car,ran as #16 and finished third driven by guy bouriat.it was then sold by the factory as a "new" car to j von morgan, germany, and driven by him in several gp's in '30-'31.i am restoring it to it's monaco specifications and wonder if anyone would have access to photos,documents,etc.pertaining to this particular car at this particular race.any information would be welcomed.btw...i have the car up and running and while pretty crude and evil handling[don't believe everything you hear about gp bugs!!]it is fast and exhilarating to drive.
thanks in advance.

[jarama]

Hi, dbw, and welcome to the forum,

I can add only a little more stuff about your Monaco GP car, but hope it works.

Certainly, finished 3rd., lapped by the winner, René Dreyfus, lapping the Monaco round-the-houses circuit in 2min11sec, while the best lap was 2min7sec by the winner himself.

At half distance Guy Bouriat had an accident at the chicane, but recovered himself from his contretemps winning the fight for third placed man to Zehender.

1st.) R.Dreyfus, Bugatti, 53.64mph
2nd.) L.Chiron, Bugatti, @ 21.8sec
3rd.) G.Bouriat, Bugatti
4th.) G.Zehender, Bugatti
5th.) M.Doré, Bugatti
6th.) H.Stuber, Bugatti

[Marcel Schot]

If this is the Hans-Joachim von Morgen Bugatti, then it was probably the car that was later sold to Paul Pietsch, who started his racing career in it.

[Leif Snellman]

Is that the same Bugatti that Heinrich-Joachim von Morgen sold to Paul Pietsch in 1932?

Ok, now I remember that Hans Etzrodt sent the following info to me yesterday!: Pietsch's car was Bugatti T35B, chassis number 4948, with 2.3-liter 8-cylinder engine, it IS the same car!

(Thanks Hans)

[p][Edited by Leif Snellman on 10-31-2000]

[Hans Etzrodt]

At the 1930 Monaco GP, Bouriat drove a Bugatti T35C, as did Chiron and "Williams". If Bouriat drove chassis number 4948 in that race, the car must have had a 2-liter engine and was converted after the race from a T35C into a T35B.

As far as I know, Heinrich Joachim von Morgen went to Molsheim, where he traded his T35B, chassis number 4948, against a T51 of unknown chassis number (a converted T35 perhaps?) at the end of 1931. At that time, Paul Pietsch went to Molsheim and bought the formerly von Morgen Bugatti T35B, chassis number 4948. His first race with this car took place 1932 in Wiesbaden, where his engine stopped prematurely while leading, because of an empty fuel tank. He participated in 11 more races that year, winning the 4 km runs of the Sudeten Mountain Climb and at Litomerice in Czechoslovakia, all with the 4948 car. For 1933, he replaced his Bugatti, with the faster Alfa Romeo 8C 2300 Monza.

Well dbw, all our present cars handle better than those old racers but you may want to compare your Bugatti’s handling with that of a Mercedes-Benz SSK.

[Marcel Schot]

Hans-Joachim Stuck, Heinrich-Joachim von Morgen
Hans-Joachim Stuck, Heinrich-Joachim von Morgen
Hans-Joachim Stuck, Heinrich-Joachim von Morgen
Hans-Joachim Stuck, Heinrich-Joachim von Morgen

[Leif Snellman]

There are two pictures of the car in W. Schegelmilch's Grand Prix de Monaco (pages 29-30)

[Marcel Schot]

Leif, what number did it carry? I do have Schlegelmilch's book, but for some odd reason I didn't take it with me to work this morning

[Leif Snellman]

As dbw said, #16

[dbw]

yes,the car ran at monaco as a 2liter 35c and was converted at the factory to a 2.3 35tc [or more commonly]35b..indications are the presence of a "compression plate" under the cyl blocks and the correponding spacer to raise the mag up to match the cambox drive.......von morgan traded the 35 in on a t51 chassis #51138, engine#21.the t35b did indeed go to pietsch and then on to herbert wimmer in 1933who did some hillclimbs in it.....there is very sketchy evidense that the same car was later converted to a monoposto by e g burgaller....as the car appeared in the states post war in a state that strongly suggested a single seat configuration.....best of all, from a restorers view, the car appears to have never been in england!!!!the odd olive drab chassis paint suggests an exit thru holland...but i'm still working on that.the missing period seems to be from just pre-war to about 1956-7 when it appeared in the us and thus into unmolested storage till i got it in 1995....

[Marcel Schot]

Originally posted by Leif Snellman
As dbw said, #16

Am I stupid or what?

A little compensation:

http://www.mediasoft.../bugatti_35.htm

[Hans Etzrodt]

Known 1930 racing record of Heinrich Joachim von Morgen and his Bugatti T35B, chassis number 4948:

• 11 May, Zbraslav-Jiloviste: 5th in racing cars, 2nd in class after Laszlo Hartmann
• 25 May, Rome GP: 3rd after Arcangeli in 1st, Bouriat/Chiron 2nd
• 15 Jun, Lyon GP: 2nd after Chiron's T35B
• 20 Jul, Eifelrennen: 1st
• 10 Aug, Klausen Pass Race: 5th in racing cars, 2nd in class after Bouriat
• 17 Aug, Schauinsland: 1st (fastest time of the day) beating favorites like Caracciola, Stuck and Stuber
• 24 Aug, Bernina Mountain Race: 2nd in racing cars behind Chiron in 16-cylinder, 3.8-liter Bugatti T45
• 31 Aug, Gaisberg Race: 1st (fastest time of the day)
• 7 Sep, Monza GP Heat 1: 2nd after Etancelin
• 7 Sep, Monza GP Final: DNF (tire defect)
• 14 Sep, Abbazia-Monte Maggiore: 1st
• 28 Sep, Masaryk Circuit: DNF (mechanical) car was taken over by Hermann Prinz zu Leiningen; v.Morgen won the race in Leiningen's T35B (chassis number unknown)

[p][Edited by Hans Etzrodt on 10-31-2000]

[Don Capps]

When I get home this evening, I will see what little I can add to the information above. I just found some "new" info on the 35 series (thanks to my trip to Watkins Glen), but I haven't had a chance to sort through all of it.

[dbw]

hans; unfortunatly i havn't driven an SSK but i have spent some track time in some pretty ancient crocks...from a 1908 cadillac hillclimb car to a 1935 fwd miller ford....as bugattis go my old t37[4cyl,1.5 liter] was a much better handling car than the t35b..... it just doesn't have the grunt.it's said that a hot supercharged t37 will out run a unblown t 35..i've seen it happen....as to the SSK i suspect the chassis falls under the "lorrie" catagory...i raced a 1928 4.5 invicta that was the antithesis of the bug....tons of torque and the nimbleness of a pickup truck....hats off to the real men who raced these cars in anger....

[Marcor]

Bugatti 35C serial number 4948.
Order number 346.

Registered 7625 NV on March 28, 1930 in the name of Ettore Bugatti Automobiles Molsheim.

Type 35, 11 HP. Although sold as a 2.3-litre later to von Morgen, it was indeed in 2-litre that the three official cars 4948, 4949 and 4950 were entered at the 1930 Monaco GP. 4948 had the number 16 ad was driven by Guy Bouriat who finished third.

Translation of page 206, Archives d’un passionné (Antoine Raffaëlli).

[dbw]

hey guys...thanks so much for the valuable information on my bug...it's pretty lonely being isolated in central california with a car whose active life was spent so far away with information seemingly so inaccessable.the bugatti brotherhood is always good for technical information but is sorely lacking when it comes to the actual history of particular cars,especially when the car has been out of circulation....i am truly amazed at how quickly specific information can be gathered...you guys are to be congratulated.one question remains..i have seen many photographs that seem to be "official" [as seen in the Raffaelli book]monaco grand prix documents.can these photographs be accessed in the form of clear prints?i am at the point in the restoration that all the small details the car wore at monaco need to be determined and implemented.there seems to be subtle visual changes on team cars that differ from "customer" cars.any information on how or who to contact as a possible source of prints would be of immense help.[i'm sure of all people you folks would understand spending hours with fuzzy photographs counting the number and position of louvers and panel screws on a particular car....no one will ever notice or care on the finished car..but i do!!] thanks again.

[Boniver]

Hans,

was the Masarykuv Okruh race on
21 september 1930
of 28 september 1930

[Hans Etzrodt]

The Opening Masaryk Circuit Race, or Masarykùv okruh – Velká cena Ceskoslovenska if you prefer local tongue, had always been planned for 28 September 1930. There had been no alternative dates.

[Marcor]

Hans,

If you're right, Paul sheldon made a little mistake, also dated the race from 21 September 1930.

And was the Eifelrennen not on 6 July 1930 ?

[Hans Etzrodt]

All my dates have been checked, double-checked and re-checked again.
From own experience I know how easy it is to slip with dates, by just making a typo. The Eifelrennen was indeed on 20 July 1930. The date for the event, originally set for 1 June, was changed in April to 20 July by the OMS (Oberste Motorrad Sportbehörde).

[dbw]

whew...with that out of the way.....can anyone help me with monaco "official" photos????

[Dennis David]

Have you tried the club?

Automobile Club de Monaco

Contact:
Automobile Club de Monaco
23, Bd. Albert 1er
MC98012 Monaco
Tel: +377 93.15.26.00
FAX: +377 93.25.80.08

[John Cross]

Here's one at the start (the artifacts are due to the descreening):



and one during the race:

[dbw]

cool....

[Michael Müller]

Searched on #4948 and found this old thread.

No, this car is not identical with the Burggaller T51A monoposto. This was originally the T35B of Emil Bremme (somebody knows the s/n?), which 1932/33 was converted to T51A monoposto and renumbered #51134.

To David (and all other of course also) :
Did you find out more about the cars history in the early postwar years?

[dbw]

wow! thread from the past!!...yes- i have eliminated any connection with the burggaller car..in fact the last solid pre-war history found was with wimmer...the earliest post-war information on the car[or it's remains] was it was connected with richard teague, well known collector on the east coast in the early fifties...the evidence still strongly suggests that a; it was run as a monoposto-b;never run or worked on in the states or the uk...all the bugatti parts and fasteners were intact when i got it....an interesting detail i'm exploring is the marking on the gearbox "PB104" in hand painted lettering..and a factory photo of a porsche 550 coupe at lemans in 1952 with "PB 126' lettered on the transaxle in the exact style....certainly a german connection there somewhere.....

that being said..the car has been fully returned to monaco livery and vintage raced with great vigor. [altho currently the restoration of a 1914 ford occupies most of my time..]

[Michael Müller]

The history of some German racing Bugattis is difficult to trace, because they had been seldomly used in the 2nd part of the 30's, and if only in secondary or only local events. Therefore I do not have much about Herbert Wimmer. The interesting thing is that in 1933 he is listed with a T51 instead of T35B, incl. the Nürburgring Eifelrennen. Possibly he mounted a DOHC engine in the car, but this is pure speculation.

When after the war in Germany racing started again, despite chaos, destruction, hunger, and shortage of almost everything, some hard headed souls pulled out of sheds, cellars, and other hiding places everything which looked raceable, including some ancient Bugattis. The very first postwar race was the Ruhestein hillclimb on 21 June 1946, held near Reutlingen in the French Zone in southwest Germany.

First in the racing car class was Fritz Georg Martin (other sources say Hansgeorg Martin) from Rottweil in the old Burggaller monoposto #51134:


(source Stadtarchiv Reutlingen)



Martin later entered this car at the Dreiecksrennen Karlsruhe (29 Sep 1946), then he disappeared.
Possibly #51134 went to Fritz Gerster, but that is unclear. His car is only described as "ex Steinweg Bugatti", but before his fatal accident in 1935 Rudolf Steinweg did not only own #51134 but also the ex-Kappler ex-Prinz zu Leiningen T35C.

Also present at the Ruhestein was Egon Brütsch with a car I believe was von J. von Morgen's T51 #51139. There is a press report from 1949 in "Motorsport + Motorradwelt" that Brütsch's ESB Special is based on the von Morgen Bugatti.



Without doubt a T51 engine, and there had been not so much around in Germany.

Another starter at the 1946 Ruhestein hillclimb was Heinrich Herbster from Lörrach, reportedly in a T35B:


(source Stadtarchiv Reutlingen)

Herbster raced this car also at the 1947 Maipokalrennen at Hockenheim, where it was reported as T51. In 1948 he was the very first customer for the new Veritas F2 monoposto, but because the engine was not ready yet they put for the Eggberg hill climb Herbster's Bugatti engine in it:



Later this was removed again and the standard engine was installed. Clearly a SOHC engine, no T51 DOHC.

This all happened within a limited area of southwest Germany. The Eggberg and Ruhestein hills and also the Hockenheim circuit are located in the area, as well as the drivers Wimmer, Martin, Brütsch, Herbster, and Gerster. Wimmer was no active driver anymore, but he was still present on the scene. There's a photo showing him standing around at the 1948 Eggberg HC together with Hummel, Gerster, and Troeltsch (Ernst Troeltsch owned the Burggaller monoposto after Steinweg's death before he sold it to Leonard Joa). Therefore it could well be that the Herbster Bugatti in fact was #4948 which he bought from Wimmer. Remarkably Wimmer and also Herbster in the entry lists vary between T35B and T51, which may be a hint that their car was a T35B converted to T51. I will not exclude that the original engine went with the car, and was then used for Herbster's Veritas, but this is pure speculation. It is reported that at the Eggberg 1948 Herbster's Veritas-Bugatti was not running well, and it had been rapaired at Gerster's nearby workshop (he called it "Polyclinic for race and sports cars"). It seems that Gerster was a kind of regional Bugatti specialist, so it would make sense that he took over also #51134 from Martin. And also the Herbster car may have found his final home at Gerster's premises. But again, all highly speculative. And even more speculative would be that the monoposto body of #51134 was fitted by Gerster to the Herbster car...!

However, all these speculations invite further research. Any contributions...?

By the way, David, I have some photos of #4948 with Pietsch in 1932. Any interest?

[dbw]

i have been looking closely at the photos you posted..a commentary will follow soon....yes i would love to see pictures of pietsche with the car!!!!

thanks!

[Michael Müller]

Originally posted by dbw
yes i would love to see pictures of pietsch (without "e") with the car!!!!
thanks!

Let me have your mail address please.

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by Marcel Schot


Am I stupid or what?

A little compensation:

http://www.mediasoft.../bugatti_35.htm

That's what happens when you don't have your coffee before posting

[dbw]

the photos i have of von morgan's 4948 in piestch's hands still show the car with alloy paddle wheels with integral brake drums...the car shown as herbster's in 1946 has wire wheels...these were available on 35a's or often converted..the conversion was not easy or inexpensive as it included new hubs and brake drums as well as wheels...the herbster car also shows alloy backing plates that were available on late t-51's... [note the standard pressed steel backing plates on the martin car]...from this angle it is impossible to tell if the herbster car is a t-35b or a t-51.

the single cam engine shown in the veritas has few unique features.. it is difficult to tell unless a major modification can be noted..however, my engine was equipped with a mn8 scintilla magneto as seen in the veritas...the factory delivered 35b had a bosch- but the catch is that a standard t-51 had the scintilla as standard equipment!!! unfortunately the two mags were interchangable..and as the bosch was notoriously unreliable a scintilla conversion was not uncommon in the years following delivery of many cars.

the bugatti transmission shown in the veritas does not reveal the type of driveshaft but one would assume that it was not a standard bugatti as it was well known they were not too good..my gearbox had a special flange on the output side that adapted to a standard spicer u-joint...again, this was not an unusual conversion...it could well be that there was 4948-a 35b ,an unknown t 51, and the veritas and things were exchanged..

thanks for the wonderful photos and information! keep searching!

[Michael Müller]

It seems that David has sold #4948:

http://www.rmauction...=r292&Currency=

It's really a pity that the best German Bugatti driver ever, Heinrich Joachim von Morgen, also in the auction text has been spelled wrong...!!