40 replies to this topic

[Phucaigh]

Is it time to change the way races are restarted after a safety car period in F1?

Wouldn't it be more exciting if it was a rolling start with the cars lined up in order in double file which would be kind of similar to how the race itself is started?

Keep the present system or change it?
Yes or No.

[Hairpin]

Is it time to change the way races are restarted after a safety car period in F1?

Wouldn't it be more exciting if it was a rolling start with the cars lined up in order in double file which would be kind of similar to how the race itself is started?

Keep the present system or change it?
Yes or No.

It would be very messy to try to line them up like in NASCAR, the F1 tracks twist and turn in all directions. It would not just be messy, it would be practically impossible.

[Jackmancer]

The most fair way would be F1 cars to have a Safety limiter on the steering wheel, simulair to the pitlimiter, and when normally the Safety Car would go out, all drivers should go on the Safety limiter. For example, Vettel lost a 10 second lead in Suzuka and Rosberg lost only 1 place at his pitstop.

It brings excitement but it's not really fair. I don't know which direction to go, fair or excitement...

Anyway what I would like to see is people on a lap or more down, to be placed at the back of the field. To example Suzuka again, Grosjean was "2nd" behind Vettel and in front of Trulli. IMO he should let everybody passed during the Safety car except those on the same lap as him.

[Vilenova]

It would be very messy to try to line them up like in NASCAR, the F1 tracks twist and turn in all directions. It would not just be messy, it would be practically impossible.

They did it in Indycar without a problem.

[Hairpin]

The most fair way would be F1 cars to have a Safety limiter on the steering wheel, simulair to the pitlimiter, and when normally the Safety Car would go out, all drivers should go on the Safety limiter. For example, Vettel lost a 10 second lead in Suzuka and Rosberg lost only 1 place at his pitstop.

It brings excitement but it's not really fair. I don't know which direction to go, fair or excitement...

Anyway what I would like to see is people on a lap or more down, to be placed at the back of the field. To example Suzuka again, Grosjean was "2nd" behind Vettel and in front of Trulli. IMO he should let everybody passed during the Safety car except those on the same lap as him.

Problem is how to actually apply that limiter. They have to go on at the same time to avoid rear-ending and if they are applied at the wrong place, you can lose the car. If they put a "10 seconds to limiter", it could theoretically work, but then you need a 100% reliability because almost all drivers will keep the pedal down until the limiter kicks in, since each tenth they win or lose is won or lost.

[Jackmancer]

They did it in Indycar without a problem.

Yep and did do it in F1 before with rain races starting behind safety car.

[Scotracer]

It would remove the skill of the following (and lead driver) to judge when the opponent is going to bolt. Don't get it right? Tough!

[Kucki]

The most fair way would be F1 cars to have a Safety limiter on the steering wheel, simulair to the pitlimiter, and when normally the Safety Car would go out, all drivers should go on the Safety limiter. For example, Vettel lost a 10 second lead in Suzuka and Rosberg lost only 1 place at his pitstop.

It brings excitement but it's not really fair. I don't know which direction to go, fair or excitement...

Anyway what I would like to see is people on a lap or more down, to be placed at the back of the field. To example Suzuka again, Grosjean was "2nd" behind Vettel and in front of Trulli. IMO he should let everybody passed during the Safety car except those on the same lap as him.

Exactly.

Pretty silly having a lapped car in the way of the leaders on a restart.

[pacificquay]

Why is it silly having a lapped car there?

The lapped car was between them before the safety car came out, so why should it be moved?

[alfa1]

Pretty silly having a lapped car in the way of the leaders on a restart.

Actually its the way it should be.
The leader passed the lapped car under green racing conditions, probably losing time doing so, but I fail to see why the guy following should not have to do the same.
The point of a safety car is SAFETY, not (as you seem to think) to create more exciting closer racing.

[wingwalker]

Was the rule about lapped cars getting back on the lead lap ditched with the introduction of new SC rules for 2009?

[jonpollak]

Hell Let's go for it!!!

DOUBLE FILE RESTARTS....SHOOTOUT STYLE
Jp

[Phucaigh]

A1GP has double file rolling starts to one of the two weekend races, it works fine.

[Frank Tuesday]

They already have the ability to give the drivers minimum time to the start finish line for the start of the safety car lap. Why not extend this over the entire course of the safety car period. Drivers would have a suitable amount of time to ensure that they got down to the correct speed, the time difference could be taken at the last section interval before the incident. At the end of each lap, drivers would have a time display on their steering wheels telling them how much time they have before they can cross the finish line. The same at the restart; drivers would have a time to reach the start finish line for the restart.

This allows the cars to proceed at a safe speed during the safety car period and for time gaps to be maintained. It also doesn't require any technology that isn't already implemented on the car or facilities.

[marcm]

Interesting suggestion. It's certainly not a problem for F1 cars to do double file restarts - plenty of other series do that.

It has worked well in Nascar - and it gives the better drivers a chance to use their skill to make up places. Just watch Montoya move forwards every restart!

It's not going to solve F1s problems alone - but it is a decent non-artificial way of improving the racing, albeit only applicable with a SC (although we seem to get plenty of those these days!)

[Hippo]

It works in Nascar because there the races take several hours and nothing really is decided before the last 10-20% of the race. Also there it's not called safety car but pace car. And there they cannot simply wave yellow flags because they're in an oval and running 250kph+ nonstop.

Not comparable to F1's safety car. This is for safety as the name says. Usually it's only deployed if someone wrecks his car on track or in a very dangerous spot or when there is a need for a medical car to use the track. It's not for the show. And the restart is already artificially spiced up, because it negates any gap and kills some drivers strategies.

Do we want random results really? Because that would be the effect of double file restarts in a series where overtaking is extremely difficult and where a SC rarely hit's everyones strategy window equally. Keep in mind, that double file restart means they have to line up and have to stay "in formation" until the green flag is waved. That's very different to the current restarts.

[BMW_F1]

Hell Let's go for it!!!

DOUBLE FILE RESTARTS....SHOOTOUT STYLE
Jp

[BMW_F1]

I am all for it since the starts are the most exciting part of a Formula 1 race, everything after the first few turns its a procession.

[marcm]

It works in Nascar because there the races take several hours and nothing really is decided before the last 10-20% of the race. Also there it's not called safety car but pace car. And there they cannot simply wave yellow flags because they're in an oval and running 250kph+ nonstop.

Not comparable to F1's safety car. This is for safety as the name says. Usually it's only deployed if someone wrecks his car on track or in a very dangerous spot or when there is a need for a medical car to use the track. It's not for the show. And the restart is already artificially spiced up, because it negates any gap and kills some drivers strategies.

Do we want random results really? Because that would be the effect of double file restarts in a series where overtaking is extremely difficult and where a SC rarely hit's everyones strategy window equally. Keep in mind, that double file restart means they have to line up and have to stay "in formation" until the green flag is waved. That's very different to the current restarts.

Pace car or Safety car - it's just a name. In Nascar and F1 they are both used to control the cars on track when there conditions are dangerous for the competetors or marshalls. They are comparable. You mention that the safety car negates any gaps and kills some drivers strategies - why not put an element of skill back into the safety car scenarios by making it possible for the better drivers to make positions. By allowing a good driver to make positions through race craft you make it less about the car and more about the driver.

Why would this make the results random? Skill will play a very large factor in whether a driver improves position on a restart or not.

Lining up and staying in formation won't be an issue - they manage it perfectly fine in sportscar series where the cars are bigger and more powerful. Why is F1 any different?

In an ideal world I'd rather we had no safety cars at all (they seem far too quick to deploy it these days) but I suspect they are likely to become more common not less therefore we might as well try and make them an opportunity for the best drivers to show their mettle.

[Clatter]

Is it time to change the way races are restarted after a safety car period in F1?

Wouldn't it be more exciting if it was a rolling start with the cars lined up in order in double file which would be kind of similar to how the race itself is started?

Keep the present system or change it?
Yes or No.

Are you talking purely on making it more exciting to watch? What about fairness? Many of the drivers would have already lost well earned leads, and now your saying that the following cars should have even more oppurtunities to get by.

Edited by Clatter, 05 October 2009 - 15:30.

[primer]

The only thing they should change is this: The lead driver (or any other driver) is not allowed to slow down once they come out of the final corner onto the start finish straight. If they slow down after the final corner on the restart lap, it should be okay to overtake them even if the lead car has not crossed the start/finish line.

No, no one has done it yet, but I can see some smart guy tapping his breaks just before start/finish line and causing a 15 car mayhem behind him while he races to win. All the acceleration and decelration games should be played before the last corner of the track.

Otherwise the current system's fine.

[Dolph]

It would be very messy to try to line them up like in NASCAR, the F1 tracks twist and turn in all directions. It would not just be messy, it would be practically impossible.

It wasn't impossible in Champcars, IndyCars and A1GP. Why wouldn't the worlds best drivers manage it?

Edited by Dolph, 05 October 2009 - 15:42.

[Kucki]

It wasn't impossible in Champcars, IndyCars and A1GP. Why wouldn't the worlds best drivers manage it?

May I add Superleague Formula to the list

[BMW_F1]

May I add Superleague Formula to the list

and NASCAR on road races . (Sonoma, Wakins Glen)

[ex Rhodie racer 2]

Depends if you want artificially created excitement, or a fair result. I tend to lean to the latter personally.
What´s so wrong with the following scenario?
Instead of a safety car, the race is immediately red flagged. The cars return to the grid where they line up in single file as per the order of the last recorded lap. The only thing the mechanics are allowed to do is fit brake coolers and tyres warmer. When the track is cleared, the race is restarted with the drivers dispatched one by one according to the time differences when the race was halted.
No one gains or loses.
But I suppose it´s too simple, so it would never be considered.

[blackonyx4]

No, no one has done it yet, but I can see some smart guy tapping his breaks just before start/finish line and causing a 15 car mayhem behind him while he races to win. All the acceleration and decelration games should be played before the last corner of the track.

Schumacher brake tested the rest of the field moments before the restart of the race at 2000 Italian GP. Only luck prevented total mayhem behind. Jenson was the only casualty then...

[Risil]

I thought NASCAR adopted double-file restarts as a panicked face-saving midseason rule change because the CoT produced such bizarrely awful oval racing? Indycar had a similar problem, for once they actually handled something better, if you could call cars running side-by-side, throttle open at 200mph a change for the better. And not, for instance, an invitation to exhume the horrors of the 1955 Le Mans 24 Hours.

[Clatter]

Depends if you want artificially created excitement, or a fair result. I tend to lean to the latter personally.
What´s so wrong with the following scenario?
Instead of a safety car, the race is immediately red flagged. The cars return to the grid where they line up in single file as per the order of the last recorded lap. The only thing the mechanics are allowed to do is fit brake coolers and tyres warmer. When the track is cleared, the race is restarted with the drivers dispatched one by one according to the time differences when the race was halted.
No one gains or loses.
But I suppose it´s too simple, so it would never be considered.;)

TV Schedule.

[Hairpin]

Discussion about double file restart


"Every time we had a restart we had a lot of action, including a lot of people wrecking, the leaders running all over each other, running into each other and I think that's what race fans wanna see. They want to see contact, close competition"

If that is what we want to see in F1, then I guess it is a great idea. But I have never watched a race hoping to see someone wrecking and if that becomes the prime entertainment value I will look elsewhere.

Edited by Hairpin, 05 October 2009 - 18:06.

[Rob G]

The safety car periods already take away too much of a dominant driver's advantage over the car behind. There's no need to exacerbate the situation by bunching them all up double-file.

[Juan Kerr]

I thought lapped cars were allowed to overtake ? Why was Grosjean second in line ?? OR is it another way of prolonging the championships ???

[le chat noir]

surely if the drivers want to start in a a staggered 2x2 they can, even now. all that has to happen is for the guy behind to come almost level. but i guess it's harder than simple as the guy ahead wants to stay ahead, they don't want to hover on the throttle waiting to see if the guy he's beating is close enough yet to excite the couch potato. which is how it should be. put the onus of exciting the couch potato on the guy behind with everything to gain. see indy 2004.

and if you look at it like that, then there's already loads of exciting non-action going on already. woop!

[Shevek]

I thought lapped cars were allowed to overtake ? Why was Grosjean second in line ?? OR is it another way of prolonging the championships ???

According to Pedro de la Rosa, Charlie Whiting said in the last drivers meeting that having the lapped cars running along the circuit at greater speed to catch the line could be very dangerous and he might not give permission, depending on the circumstances (people on the track, debris, medical car, etc.). It seems that he made use of that power.

[Clatter]

According to Pedro de la Rosa, Charlie Whiting said in the last drivers meeting that having the lapped cars running along the circuit at greater speed to catch the line could be very dangerous and he might not give permission, depending on the circumstances (people on the track, debris, medical car, etc.). It seems that he made use of that power.

I wonder if the low number of remaining laps also played a part in the decision.

[BMW_F1]

According to Pedro de la Rosa, Charlie Whiting said in the last drivers meeting that having the lapped cars running along the circuit at greater speed to catch the line could be very dangerous and he might not give permission, depending on the circumstances (people on the track, debris, medical car, etc.). It seems that he made use of that power.

they don't have to drive very fast to go around. - after all the race is stopped at that point and the lead cars are behind the safety car..

[FlatOverCrest]

What would be even better is to keep the existing system and simply have the drivers learn how to do a rolling restart!!!

I cannot believe the distances some drivers allow themselves to the car ahead when coming into the final couple of corners before the SC pulls in... Some of them could use a few tips from the Touring Car boys...i.e. get that car positioned right on the 3/4 of the car ahead so that their nose is alongside the car aheads sidepods....not 20 feet back, then when he goes...you tuck back in on the straight....try to catch the drag and dive out for the first corner....

Some of the restarts by some drivers this year have been truly shocking.... with many being further back from the car ahead even before the safety car came out...

[Lazarus II]

What ever it takes to bring some chance of overtaking into F1.

People need to get over the idea that this is somehow a sport, it is clearly entertainment. If you want to call it an entertainment sport or whatever then fine, but if it is to survive it better entertain its audience or it will die.

[Clatter]

they don't have to drive very fast to go around. - after all the race is stopped at that point and the lead cars are behind the safety car..

Yeah, we all want to watch more laps behind the SC while a lapped car poodles round to the back of the train.

[ryan86]

But surely if the debris are all cleared up, ie, there's no marshals on the circuit, it's better for Grosjean to use Sunday's example to be 40 seconds down and rounding Spoon as they take the green flag than being a lap down and then having to let the whole field by in one straight as he would just be getting in the way.

But no, I don't think there's anything wrong with the current SC rules. I am OK with people losing leads, because it's better than others losing their lives.

[BMW_F1]

Yeah, we all want to watch more laps behind the SC while a lapped car poodles round to the back of the train.

So you rather speed up the race than reduce the potential for a tragedy?

[Paul Taylor]

What happened to the rule about letting lapped runners through?

In order to make it more exciting, they could always hold them at a fixed speed once the safety car goes into the pits and not let them go until the green lights are shown at the start/finish line. Make it like a rolling start like we see in American racing.