43 replies to this topic

[Music Lover]

Hi, what was the reason for the crash and why did he get a 5cm cut in the leg?

The car seems not taking steering. Looking at the onboard camera pictures, he turned the steering wheel right but the car didn't respond.
And the leg cut, what cased that? Something penetrated the safety cell? (carbon fibre monocoque)

[Ringo]

Hi, what was the reason for the crash and why did he get a 5cm cut in the leg?

The car seems not taking steering. Looking at the onboard camera pictures, he turned the steering wheel right but the car didn't respond.
And the leg cut, what cased that? Something penetrated the safety cell? (carbon fibre monocoque)

Took too much curb entering final corner, car started to oversteer, Timo corrected (thus why it looks like he's turning more than the car actually moves). Thought he was 50cm more to teh right than he was, ran onto grass, through gravel and into barrier.

Leg cut by aluminium struts that hold front wing onto nose. Came in through opening of cockpit.

It's all in his quotes from the Sunday at Suzuka on the autosport homepage.

[noikeee]

I guess Glock's explanation makes sense but that was a weird shunt none the less.

[stevewf1]

He just lost it. With the wide-angle lens of the in-car cameras, it's hard to really tell much of anything. Also, the "on-board" engine sounds aren't that good either.

[Music Lover]

Leg cut by aluminium struts that hold front wing onto nose. Came in through opening of cockpit.

But isn't the cut on leg under the knee?
Can a part bounce like that down into the cockpit?

[stevewf1]

But isn't the cut on leg under the knee?
Can a part bounce like that down into the cockpit?

Apparently. You'd be surprised what can happen in a crash.

[Tomecek]

In fact not only few drivers and engineers doubts it was driving error. It is thought Glock was forced to take responsibility so Toyota doesn't need to admit fault on home soil...

[tormave]

Glock had apparently suffered from 39C degree fever the night before qualifying. I remember reading a study, which found that driving in high fever is like driving drunk from reaction time point of view. Henri Toivonen and his co-driver died in Corsica in the 80s rallying despite Henri suffering from high fever - he drove straight off the road into a deep valley. I should think Glocks physical condition could've been the cause despite him being better than in the previous night - one needed either a sick driver or a sick car to go off there and if Toyota says the car was fine, I think it might've been just one lap too many for Timo the condition he was in.

[stevewf1]

Glock had apparently suffered from 39C degree fever the night before qualifying. I remember reading a study, which found that driving in high fever is like driving drunk from reaction time point of view. Henri Toivonen and his co-driver died in Corsica in the 80s rallying despite Henri suffering from high fever - he drove straight off the road into a deep valley. I should think Glocks physical condition could've been the cause despite him being better than in the previous night - one needed either a sick driver or a sick car to go off there and if Toyota says the car was fine, I think it might've been just one lap too many for Timo the condition he was in.

That's what I think, too. He really shouldn't have been out there. A physical injury is one thing, but a cold/flu/fever?

[Music Lover]

Regardess him being sick or not...the car sliding or not...despite the driving wheel being turned right quite a bit, the car continued stright on. How is that explained?

[Mauseri]

Regardess him being sick or not...the car sliding or not...despite the driving wheel being turned right quite a bit, the car continued stright on. How is that explained?

I think we had this thread already. Glock understeered out. When you accelerate, you don't have a lot front grip. The corner isn't a straight. It's possible to do mistakes.

[EthanM]

Regardess him being sick or not...the car sliding or not...despite the driving wheel being turned right quite a bit, the car continued stright on. How is that explained?

Isn't that the definition of understeer?

[Henrytheeigth]

It was Massa's revenge on Timo for Brazil 08...

[One]

It is hard to judge from the TV-video image, but I had this impression that Timo's Toyota just went straight while he was turning his steering wheel to the right!


??

Edited by One, 06 October 2009 - 14:24.

[One]

linky

[One]

A possibly a steering column failure?

[DanTheMan]

A possibly a steering column failure?

That is what they thought on SpeedTV at first, then they pulled an image from Kimi's Ferrari at exactly the same corner, where he made the turn, and the wheels looked to be turned exactly the same amount.

Seems to be just understeer, lack of grip and taking the kerb too high.

[Ruud de la Rosa]

A possibly a steering column failure?

make a few stills of the youtube movie and compare the angle of the tyres in the chicane with when he goes off track. Take into account the left and right tyres don't turn in the same amount when turning left or right and the camera is on one side of the car.

[Arska]

Also he ran too wide, got on the dirty part of the track and had even more understeer because of that.

[Kucki]

Isn't that the definition of understeer?

Yes

[Henrytheeigth]

[Henrytheeigth]

Hey the wheels turned left b4 impact!

[potmotr]

Not the first time we've seen monster shunts at that corner.

Montoya had one in 2005 with a little help from Villeneuve..

JPM eats Suzuka final turn tyres

I think Webber crashed their too in 06

[pRy]

Hey the wheels turned left b4 impact!

They turn left when he hits the tyres.. the animated gif has a lower frame rate so the left tyre movement stands out more, but it happens when he hits the barrier.

[Henrytheeigth]

They turn left when he hits the tyres.. the animated gif has a lower frame rate so the left tyre movement stands out more, but it happens when he hits the barrier.

Yea I thought of that but it just seems so for a split second, but no biggy.

[uffen]

When I saw the slo-mo it looked like he turned the steering wheel but the front tires didn't move (or at least not as much as the steering wheel movement would suggest.)

[FlatOverCrest]

This was discussed at length in another thread, but I'll try to explain for those not understanding the principles of understeer, gravel and slick tyres.

The simplest comparison is if you take your road car, your coming to a righthand 45 degree bend in the road and there is black ice on the corner, once you hit the ice patch your car will head straight on, possibly even gaining a little speed as it no longer has friction of the tyres on tarmac, but now rubber on ice. The car will continue to understeer unless either grip is found again on the turning wheels OR the driver induces a greater slide/turn with a quick pull of the handbrake. In short....in your road car, there is a moment when you are a passenger.

Now with the concept in mind...look at the video.


Take an F1 car that acclerates cnsiderably faster than your road car, and observe the amount of run off area that there is on the outside of the turn. A simple speed+distance observation will show that there really is not much room for error on this corner.

Back to the video.

At the beginning of the video you see Glock making the chicane and all is well with the steering. At 5 seconds into this clip,Glock begins his turn for the corner. This corner is known as "running the wall". Unlike other corners, you dont hug the inside of the turn, you let the car almost take a straight line with just a slight turn on, thus allowing the car to accellerate as fast as possible, hence why he does not have a huge turn on the wheel.

7 seconds in, he is continuing the turn, but is getting a little deep into the corner. Why is this important, because he is then off the rubbered in line and so less traction. His car starts to understeer at this point. Many drivers were complaining of understeer (not oversteer as some have observed). The car is however turning and the amount of turn on the wheels is roughly what you would expect given the steering wheel input on an F1 car. Remember, this is not your raod car.... an F1 car has a very small turn to turn lock and the front wheels do not turn in direction as much as a road car.

From the moment he is offline 7 seconds in, "not even 1 second later" his front left has hit the gravel on the outside ove the white line, losing ALL traction on the front left and thus the momentum of the understeer increases. The right hand wheel becomes a passenger at this point. Once he is on the gravel/dust/grass he does not have a hope in hell of bringing that car back unless he had say.... 200 m of run off area. He doesnt, he has a tyre barrier LESS THAN 2 SECONDS after beginning to understeer. 2 seconds with traction equivalent to ice does not give you a hope in hell from keeping that car from going into the tyres.

As Timo knows, the margin for error on that corner in miniscule. You get off line at that speed you better pray your front left does not hit the lose dust on the outside...it did...he became a passenger end of story. His front left wheel turns to the left at the immediate point of impact with the tyre barrier band which is no surprise considering the angle he went in at and the friction between hot rubber tyre and rubber wall wrap.

In short.....the car failure conspiracy theorists need to drop this one. It was simply a case of driver offline, very fast corner, too much understeer, no traction on the loose and a wall immediately on the run off... From moment of understeer to end result took less that two seconds!!! No brakage, just bad luck and being probably no more than 2-3 inches off line.

NOW.....had the run off been tarmac instead of gravel immediately after the white line....Timo would NOT have ended up in the barrier that hard period. He would have most likely done a "Buemi" and bounced down along the wall or he might have even missed the wall altogther. THAT corner needs that gravel and dust/grass combo removed and replaced with tarmac IMHO.

Hopefully that helps those that are interested to see how such a corner understeer crash occurs....

[One]

The concept is all right, it is just that I saw little movements on the front wheels of Glock on TV. Perhaps then a deed of super wide angle lends???

[potmotr]

@FlatOverCrest: Great post man, well thought out read.

[Muz Bee]

@FlatOverCrest: Great post man, well thought out read.

I'm with you on this. Why does another conspiracy theory thread have to start over a simple incident? If a steering failure occurred there would be a very different trajectory of the car into the barrier. The car was still turning while it was understeering wide, it didn't just spear off at a tangent, that's surely obvious.

[SRi130Brett]

I agree, looks like understeer to me. I also think his inputs into the steering wheel would have been different if the steering failed. If you bear in mind theres a differnce between having no feel due to lack of grip, and having no feel becuase the steering is not working, the way he turns it it looks like he is still trying to feel the road to start with, in the event of a failure I think he would have reacted with a more agressive turn due to not being able to feel anything.

[FlatOverCrest]

@FlatOverCrest: Great post man, well thought out read.

TY sir

[stevewf1]

Looks like understeer to me... He forgot one of the most important rules of crashing, though - just before the impact, let go of the steering wheel!

[pgj]

Looks like understeer to me... He forgot one of the most important rules of crashing, though - just before the impact, let go of the steering wheel!

Not all drivers agree in letting go of the wheel. JV, I think, was one driver who always promoted keeping hands pushed against the outside of the wheel. The important thing is to get the thumbs out of the wheel and apply pressure to the outside of the wheel. They claim that having the upper body tense prevents whiplash injuries. It is becoming more popular with the side of the car now being so close to a driver's head. I heard an ex-driver talking about it at the weekend.

[Velocifer]

Clock walks about in the throngs of the city before the weekend, gets the flu and in a feverish state misjudges the turn.

Glock crashes car, cuts leg, costs Toyota likely points and a small fortune.

Lesson learned: Let the drivers do walkabouts AFTER races.

[FlatOverCrest]

Intresting thing I just noticed...

You see him reach for the visor immediately after impact... looks to me like it flew open slightly and he instantly closed it with all that crap flying around... I remember Jenson had a problem with a visor that would no stay down in Monza I think? a few years back, he had to hold the damn thing shut on the straights!

I think visors is certainly an area of helmet design that could be looked into further. I currently use the Stilo lid and love the internal pull down dark visor. Obviously that doesnt work for single seaters but I wonder what we will see in changes to visor design especially in light of the Massa accident.

Maybe nothing, but I just noticed him grabing I believe for the visor and wonder if indeed it did open on impact...in which case...thats not good!

[Henrytheeigth]

I remember Jenson had a problem with a visor that would no stay down in Monza I think? a few years back, he had to hold the damn thing shut on the straights!

I think that was Hockenhiem 2004 or smthin...

[FlatOverCrest]

I think that was Hockenhiem 2004 or smthin...

Ahh yes you could be right....I knew it was one of the quick ones...lol

[potmotr]

Looks like understeer to me... He forgot one of the most important rules of crashing, though - just before the impact, let go of the steering wheel!

I reckon he would have been thinking: "This isn't happening! This is happening!" Crash!

[Music Lover]

I agree, looks like understeer to me. I also think his inputs into the steering wheel would have been different if the steering failed. If you bear in mind theres a differnce between having no feel due to lack of grip, and having no feel becuase the steering is not working, the way he turns it it looks like he is still trying to feel the road to start with, in the event of a failure I think he would have reacted with a more agressive turn due to not being able to feel anything.

Good point!

[Henrytheeigth]

Wow! Talk about oposite lock...

[Spa95]

http://www.motorspor...s_09101101.html

Glock will also miss the Brazilian GP - Apperantly the wound got inflamed and he was also diagnosed with a back injury. Kobayashi will be the replacement.

[Henrytheeigth]

http://www.motorspor...s_09101101.html

Glock will also miss the Brazilian GP - Apperantly the wound got inflamed and he was also diagnosed with a back injury. Kobayashi will be the replacement.

Wow! I hope he brings us entertainment with a few bingles during the race

[midgrid]

Intresting thing I just noticed...

You see him reach for the visor immediately after impact... looks to me like it flew open slightly and he instantly closed it with all that crap flying around... I remember Jenson had a problem with a visor that would no stay down in Monza I think? a few years back, he had to hold the damn thing shut on the straights!

I think visors is certainly an area of helmet design that could be looked into further. I currently use the Stilo lid and love the internal pull down dark visor. Obviously that doesnt work for single seaters but I wonder what we will see in changes to visor design especially in light of the Massa accident.

Maybe nothing, but I just noticed him grabing I believe for the visor and wonder if indeed it did open on impact...in which case...thats not good!

Button had a problem with his helmet at the 2004 German Grand Prix, but it wasn't the visor that caused it. It was actually the strap coming slightly loose and causing the helmet to lift up on the straights that was causing him discomfort. IIRC, he didn't tell the team what the precise problem was, and since he was holding the side of his helmet on the straights with one hand to keep it pressed down, it looked like he was holding the visor in place, but it was definitely the strap.

Visors can come off or become loose in heavy crashes, although it usually happens in rearward impacts, for example Ralf Schumacher at the 2004 United States Grand Prix.