49 replies to this topic

[mountford]

I've only just realised something after the Singapore GP

3 cars designed by Adrian Newey didn't finish, the 4th had bits failing off. And people called Kimi a killer whilst they were both at MM.

I'm not blaming Adrian, we all know that even Vettel admitted that he's an engine ruiner on the BBC forum.

Coincidence? Or not?


Let's flame discuss it like adults

Edit:

In fact, I can't remeber why the 2 TRs didn't finish. We can still discuss Newey's designs, faults and strengths.

Edited by mountford, 08 October 2009 - 12:34.

[Jackmancer]

In fact, I can't remeber why the 2 TRs didn't finish. We can still discuss Newey's designs, faults and strengths.

Brakes. And that was the issue with Webbers car too. Not Neweys fault I think.

EDIT:
Buemi had gearbox problem.

Edited by Jackmancer, 08 October 2009 - 12:44.

[FPV GTHO]

I think his genius can definately be his downfall; his singleminded focus on aerodynamics, compromising the packaging, cooling and other aspects, but more often than it fails it works brilliantly.

[Hippo]

I think I read the brake problems were due to all 4 cars using brake discs not of the maximum allowed size. If so they probably misjudged brake disc wear and thus ended up in trouble. That's not an inherent design flaw.

Also car #15 falling apart was partially because of Vettel. The diffuser that is. The mirror thing was coincidental imho. Looked like a material failure. Not a design flaw either, because if so it would happen more often.


Generally I think the myth about Newey's cars being fragile is bunk. It wasn't his fault the Mercedes engines used to blow up. At Red Bull we never had any significant problems with engines. Neither did Williams when he worked there. In 2007 the gearbox caused a lot of trouble. If I recall correctly that was not because of Newey, but because the casing just wasn't good enough to endure the required amount of races. Keep in mind, that the rules for gearbox mileage have been altered a couple of times. When this issue was addressed there was only 1 more gearbox failure: Singapore 08.

The meme has been circling around for a long time. It has always been very superficial though. Whenever one of his cars breaks up people raise the counter by one without actually caring about the real reason.

[glorius&victorius]

Generally I think the myth about Newey's cars being fragile is bunk. It wasn't his fault the Mercedes engines used to blow up. At Red Bull we never had any significant problems with engines. Neither did Williams when he worked there. In 2007 the gearbox caused a lot of trouble. If I recall correctly that was not because of Newey, but because the casing just wasn't good enough to endure the required amount of races.

why does an engine blow up.. because it gets hot.. why does it get hot.. because it is not optimally cooled... why is it not optimally cooled because there is not enough air reaching cooling elements (and that air is diverted for downforce purposes...)

i am not saying who is to blame as it is a team work, but surely aero affects engine reliability.

that is just one example...

maybe the same for the brake problems... not enough optimal cooling there?

[Big Block 8]

I've only just realised something after the Singapore GP

3 cars designed by Adrian Newey didn't finish, the 4th had bits failing off. And people called Kimi a killer whilst they were both at MM.

I'm not blaming Adrian, we all know that even Vettel admitted that he's an engine ruiner on the BBC forum.

I am blaming him. It can't be a coincidence that under his tenure the McLarens were fragile POSs and suddenly became bulletproof in 2007 when he left, as also today the Red Bulls are grenading Renault engines left and right while Renault team at the same time has had zero (?) engine failures.

As it's already said, too tight packaging of the Newey designs leads to inadequate cooling and they've also probably shaved a little bit too much from here and there to be as reliable as the others. As todays competition is so tight and 0 mechanical failures per season is entirely possible to achieve, his old recipe is way past it's best before date. Old dogs can learn new tricks though, but it's difficult.

[Greem]

why does an engine blow up..

How long have you got? Mechanical stress due to vibration, rotational stress due to the way the transmission is mounted, poor maintenance, poor carriage in transit, ECU mappings, unsuitable lubrication for the conditions, too little or too much cooling (yes, I'll give you that one).

Not enough? Ok then - drivers with a driving style which doesn't suit the engine, duff gearbox couplings, repeated out-of-spec gear change sequences, spending too long on the limiter... the list is quite literally endless.

Oh, sorry, you were asking a *rhetorical* question. OK, engines blow up because Newey looks at them.

[ThomFi]

...
I'm not blaming Adrian, we all know that even Vettel admitted that he's an engine ruiner on the BBC forum.
...

Can you provide a source for this claim ?

[hogstar]

Newey's cars seem to fast, yet fragile and marginal. Not the car to win you a WDC in my opinion. They will be there or thereabouts, but is that ultimately enough? This years RBR reminds me of the FW16 in some respects...

[Jay]

I agree with this massively..

Adrian Newey is a speed design genius... but when it comes to endurance, I think his designs are compromised for the former...

His designs are always tight, look good and perform well over one race... but they seem to have trouble carrying the momentum of a whole season.

J

[WebBerK]

I think I read the brake problems were due to all 4 cars using brake discs not of the maximum allowed size. If so they probably misjudged brake disc wear and thus ended up in trouble. That's not an inherent design flaw.

IMO, The brake problem was due to the brake duct width.
A bigger duct will provide more cooling to the disks at a cost of aerodynamic drag and lower the [top] speeds.
I guess they made the calculation wrong. Too greedy.

[ex Rhodie racer 2]

If iI was a F1 driver I would want to drive a car designed by Newey in a team run by Ross Brawn.

[pgj]

I am not so sure that it is bunk when talking of Adrian's cars as being fragile. He is always looking to innovate both with materials and construction methods. When he produces a race winning car it generally has a big advantage. When things go wrong they are obvious. People forget that Adrian has now produced winning cars for Williams, McLaren, STR and RBR. That is quite an achievement.

I am a big Adrian fan. Last years RBR clearly had an early season problem with its suspension. My feeling is, and I could be wrong here I am only going from memory, that the problem was soon engineered out of the equation. If he has been trying to cut weight by using undersized discs he will know about it and resolve the problem. Perhaps he needs a strong character alongside him, like Patrick, to argue/debate some aspects of car development.

[shonguiz]

we all know that even Vettel admitted that he's an engine ruiner on the BBC forum.

Wut ?

[fosters35]

I have no idea of the tech aspects but his car is still a potential championship winning one.

I'd rather this fragile car than a tank of a car running around in the midfield.

Isn't F1 about cutting edge and pushing things to the limit?

[Norm]

6 driver titles and 10 constructor titles.... says it all doesn't it?

[Jackmancer]

6 driver titles and 10 constructor titles.... says it all doesn't it?

Results achieved in the past are no garantee for the future.

Newey is the last of a kind. Only designer who doesn't design on a computer. I'm not sure how long he can continue doing that. Anyway, Newey missed the mark as well sometimes so, like some of the latter Mclarens he did.

[Norm]

Results achieved in the past are no garantee for the future.

Newey is the last of a kind. Only designer who doesn't design on a computer. I'm not sure how long he can continue doing that. Anyway, Newey missed the mark as well sometimes so, like some of the latter Mclarens he did.

Granted. Every designer produces a flop once in a while. Not many design cars of the caliber of Newey though. Only one other designer in F1 has enjoyed more success than Newey... so if I were a team boss and I had the dosh to pay a top designer(10 million), Newey would be my choice. Prost, Mansell, Hill, Villeneuve and Hakkinen, I am sure feel the same.

[nada12]

6 driver titles and 10 constructor titles.... says it all doesn't it?

Most of them were won in a time where reliability wasn't as crucial.

And btw, 10 constructor titles? Im counting six.

[JSDSKI]

Geoff Willis also moved on....

[Cool Beans]

Newey's cars seem to fast, yet fragile and marginal. Not the car to win you a WDC in my opinion.

Your opinion vs. two scorched WDC trophies in Häkkinen's cabinet?

[Colombo]

Your opinion vs. two scorched WDC trophies in Häkkinen's cabinet?

Don't forget one WDC trophy for each of those guys: Mansell, Prost, Hill, Villeneuve.

GC

[J. Edlund]

why does an engine blow up.. because it gets hot.. why does it get hot.. because it is not optimally cooled... why is it not optimally cooled because there is not enough air reaching cooling elements (and that air is diverted for downforce purposes...)

i am not saying who is to blame as it is a team work, but surely aero affects engine reliability.

that is just one example...

maybe the same for the brake problems... not enough optimal cooling there?

No, in general engines doesn't blow up in because of heat. At McLaren I can only recall one engine failure due to heat, and that was when Montoya damaged one of the sidepods which restricted cooling airflow. Quality control of the engine components was a bigger issue, there were coatings that failed, incorrect tolerances for the dry sump pump and so on that caused most of the failures.

At Red Bull the Renault engine runs at the same temperature as at Renault so that isn't the reason for the engine troubles.

[Ruud de la Rosa]

Most of them were won in a time where reliability wasn't as crucial.

And btw, 10 constructor titles? Im counting six.

5 wcc:
williams 92, 93. 94, 96
mclaren 98

end 96 he went on gardening leave to join mclaren in 97

[nada12]

5 wcc:
williams 92, 93. 94, 96
mclaren 98

end 96 he went on gardening leave to join mclaren in 97

You're right, I was including 97 but he wasn't there anymore.

[Ruud de la Rosa]

You're right, I was including 97 but he wasn't there anymore.

wikipedia also says 6 and it seems the whole world believes it's 6, including the website of redbull:

1990 – Joined Williams as Chief Designer, overseeing the FW14 and the other Williams-Renaults which were the dominant force in the ‘90s, won 58 grands prix, four Drivers’ and five Constructors' titles

so maybe I'm wrong on 1997?

[Sakae]

I'm not blaming Adrian, we all know that even Vettel admitted that he's an engine ruiner on the BBC forum.

Could you provide a link, please?

[lbennie]

I'm not blaming Adrian, we all know that even Vettel admitted that he's an engine ruiner on the BBC forum.

yes he did, but he was being sarcastic
let's not leave the context out hey

[Tenmantaylor]

Adrian Newey designs cars that have amazing composure in long high speed corners. With a Merc in the back the Red Bull would have been untouchable this year in terms of pace. His cars have always seemed fragile and marginal but thats what gets him the great results like China, Silverstone, Nurburgring and Suzuka this year. The car dominated those tracks and should have dominated more with a better engine. Mechanical grip and setup is obviously the RBs weakness this year.

[JarnoA]

Don't forget one WDC trophy for each of those guys: Mansell, Prost, Hill, Villeneuve.

GC

Newey had nothing to do with Villeneuve's title. Given the fact he was on gardening leave the year before.

[Norm]

Most of them were won in a time where reliability wasn't as crucial.

And btw, 10 constructor titles? Im counting six.

Yah, sorry about that. Honest mistake. It should be 6 out of 10 WCC's during the 90's.

[Norm]

Newey had nothing to do with Villeneuve's title. Given the fact he was on gardening leave the year before.

The car was already designed for '97 before Newey left. He was on leave for the 97 season.

[FonzCam]

Your opinion vs. two scorched WDC trophies in Häkkinen's cabinet?

We all know Häkkinen has no WDC trophies.


Ron has them!

[Demo.]

Results achieved in the past are no garantee for the future.

Newey is the last of a kind. Only designer who doesn't design on a computer. I'm not sure how long he can continue doing that. Anyway, Newey missed the mark as well sometimes so, like some of the latter Mclarens he did.

but it is a sign of ability over someone who has helped a team win none.

lets not forget where his fragile designed cars are in the championship shall we.
We could just as easily say are the engines are failing due to renault cherry picking the best engines/parts when it comes to dispatching their customer engines.
To a team who are willing to order one of their drivers to crash surely cherry picking the best and leaving the rest for customers would not even be seen as cheating.

As for brakes failing due to wearing out who really thinks that the brake thickness for a race is decided by the designer of the car surely that is down to the team who decide the race weekend technical needs?
Airflow while it can be mainly down the the designer will not be all down to him due to all the cfd that is done on cars to ensure overheating does not occur ( as well as all the other work the cfd teams do) and clearly the cfd teams would be ensuring if any potentual problems were found that they never got onto the cars, not to mention it is only at this one track we saw the problem and as stated there was talk of the problem being down to the thickness of braking materials needed being under estimated.

Edited by Demo., 09 October 2009 - 01:37.

[Big Block 8]

No, in general engines doesn't blow up in because of heat. At McLaren I can only recall one engine failure due to heat, and that was when Montoya damaged one of the sidepods which restricted cooling airflow. Quality control of the engine components was a bigger issue, there were coatings that failed, incorrect tolerances for the dry sump pump and so on that caused most of the failures.

At Red Bull the Renault engine runs at the same temperature as at Renault so that isn't the reason for the engine troubles.

In F1 the engine is part of the load bearing structures of the chassis, unlike in most other cars where the engine just rests on it's stands. In F1 car the engine twists and bends just like any other load bearing chassis component. Although Mercedes surely made mistakes as well, problems with Renault engine clearly suggest that Newey has something to do with the problems. MacLaren-Mercedes problems were so persistent, that the origin of the problem must have been difficult to pinpoint, suggesting a combination of internal engine weaknessess combined with weaknesses in suspending the engine to the chassis.

Another coincidence is that his last title is from 1999 and even then his cars had huge reliability disadvantage compared with it's closest rival. And frankly I can't remember any other designer that has produced such a POS that it couldn't even be introduced for the season it was intended - MP4-18 anyone?

I do give credit to his achievements in the mid 90s, where he more often than not did a fine job, but since then he's apparently been repeating the same mistakes over and over and hence has become so overrated that it's annoying.

Edited by Big Block 8, 09 October 2009 - 06:54.

[bankoq]

Newey's cars may be fragile, but they are never slow. And are always fantastic in rain conditions.

That's why almost every team on the grid would dump its designer immediately if had a chance to contract Adrian.

[Big Block 8]

Newey's cars may be fragile, but they are never slow.

Ehh... 2002, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008?

And are always fantastic in rain conditions.

Shrugging different kinds of driver hatings/worshippings aside, the Newey cars have often been described as "twitchy bitches" even when they've generally been fast, so I believe the truth here is the same as when considering them "never slow".

That's why almost every team on the grid would dump its designer immediately if had a chance to contract Adrian.

I somehow doubt that for example McLaren would want him back.

[john ruston]

Certainly Ferrari tried to get him.

[se7en_24]

Anyone who can design a car that JVi can win a world title in has to be a genius.

[Hippo]

Ehh... 2002, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008?

Aww come on. Just because his cars didn't have a shot at WDC those years doesn't mean they were slow. In 2002 McLaren was new to Michelin. In 2004 they had some problems with the famous MP4/19. They still won at least one race those years. In 2006 they weren't very good, but hadn't Räikkönen crashed it in Hungary it could have been a winning car too. In 2007 and 2008 nobody seriously expected a winning car considering the competition. Still in Fuji 07 it was very close to victory only to be ruined by Vettel. And in 08 the car won in Monza...

By the way, the MP4/21 is considered a Newey-design, but he wasn't with the team anymore when the season was on.

I believe most other designers would be happy about such a record in their CVs.

[potmotr]

I thought RBR hired Geoff Willis to act as a foil for Newey's genius.

He would make sure Newey's ideas worked on the car in a reliable way.

Therefore I was highly surprised to see RBR had given Willis the arse a few months back.

[FPV GTHO]

We still dont really know what happened between RBR and Willis though.

[One]

I am still assuming that it was some sort of Fuel Tank dispute,...

[potmotr]

We still dont really know what happened between RBR and Willis though.

Yeah, it was pretty weird eh?

[One]

Did willis wanted make his car quicker by exploitingthe letters of the rule book and hit by the discussion on how exactly one reads the book?

The point is that we do not know...

Edited by One, 09 October 2009 - 13:11.

[Big Block 8]

Aww come on. Just because his cars didn't have a shot at WDC those years doesn't mean they were slow. In 2002 McLaren was new to Michelin. In 2004 they had some problems with the famous MP4/19. They still won at least one race those years. In 2006 they weren't very good, but hadn't Räikkönen crashed it in Hungary it could have been a winning car too. In 2007 and 2008 nobody seriously expected a winning car considering the competition. Still in Fuji 07 it was very close to victory only to be ruined by Vettel. And in 08 the car won in Monza...

By the way, the MP4/21 is considered a Newey-design, but he wasn't with the team anymore when the season was on.

I believe most other designers would be happy about such a record in their CVs.

Now we are talking semantics. No F1 car is slow, as they all could run rings around any supercar you can find on the street. Regardless, compared to the top contenders of those years, overall the cars of the aforementioned years were slow by F1 standards.

MP4-19 didn't win any races, that was the MP4-19B which was a totally revised new version. MP4-19 was slow.

[Simon Says]

Aww come on. Just because his cars didn't have a shot at WDC those years doesn't mean they were slow. In 2002 McLaren was new to Michelin. In 2004 they had some problems with the famous MP4/19. They still won at least one race those years. In 2006 they weren't very good, but hadn't Räikkönen crashed it in Hungary it could have been a winning car too. In 2007 and 2008 nobody seriously expected a winning car considering the competition. Still in Fuji 07 it was very close to victory only to be ruined by Vettel. And in 08 the car won in Monza...

By the way, the MP4/21 is considered a Newey-design, but he wasn't with the team anymore when the season was on.

I believe most other designers would be happy about such a record in their CVs.

The Torro Rosso is also made by the hands of Newey?

[Simon Says]

Now we are talking semantics. No F1 car is slow, as they all could run rings around any supercar you can find on the street. Regardless, compared to the top contenders of those years, overall the cars of the aforementioned years were slow by F1 standards.

MP4-19 didn't win any races, that was the MP4-19B which was a totally revised new version. MP4-19 was slow.

A F1 car on the street is very bad. I watched some demo runs of F1 cars in the city and they couldn't go flat out because it was too bumpy for them while rally cars were extremely stable.

[DanDectis]

I think I read the brake problems were due to all 4 cars using brake discs not of the maximum allowed size. If so they probably misjudged brake disc wear and thus ended up in trouble. That's not an inherent design flaw.

Also car #15 falling apart was partially because of Vettel. The diffuser that is. The mirror thing was coincidental imho. Looked like a material failure. Not a design flaw either, because if so it would happen more often.


Generally I think the myth about Newey's cars being fragile is bunk. It wasn't his fault the Mercedes engines used to blow up. At Red Bull we never had any significant problems with engines. Neither did Williams when he worked there. In 2007 the gearbox caused a lot of trouble. If I recall correctly that was not because of Newey, but because the casing just wasn't good enough to endure the required amount of races. Keep in mind, that the rules for gearbox mileage have been altered a couple of times. When this issue was addressed there was only 1 more gearbox failure: Singapore 08.

The meme has been circling around for a long time. It has always been very superficial though. Whenever one of his cars breaks up people raise the counter by one without actually caring about the real reason.

I am in agreement with most of what you are saying. Solid points for sure.

I'd just like to say, though, that the Mercedes engines letting go and now the Renaults in the RBR's letting go Newey's design may actually play into that somewhat. It may be a bit of a stretch, but I suspect that adequate cooling of the engines is paramount to their longevity.

Might it be possible that in his, as you rightly pointed out, single minded quest for aerodynamics he cuts the margins danger close in terms of cooling?

Speculation on my part...but something to consider I think

[newbie]

The Geoff Willis situation, as I understand, was that he left simply because his two-year contract ran out and was not extended. Nothing unusual if you ask me, and nothing warranting any sort of press release on the part of Red Bull Technology.