38 replies to this topic

[HistoricMustang]

I am a little surprised that this distinguished group has not yet touched on Soap Box Derby cars and racing.

At least a search did not produce a previous discussion directed at this important form of racing.

Lets kick it off with this:

http://www.nascar.co...bull/index.html

And then, let the education begin.

Especially concerning old events and old "cars".

Henry

[URY914]

My wife grew up in Akron Ohio where the finals are held every year. it is a very big deal there.

Has any major drivers ever started in the seat of a Soap Box Derby car?

[D-Type]

The Goodwood Festival used to include a race for soapbox cars down the hill (I was told that the suggestion apparently came from a TNF member!).

Some race teams took it very seriously with carbon fibre bodies etc. and speeds were increasing. the race was discontinued when the organisers became concerned about safety. The funamental problem is the corners (the Akron race is in a straight line). As the vehicles are as light as possible, there is next to know impact resistance and at the speeds being reached a collision with the straw bales could cause a serious injury. Bicycle wheels are not designed for lateral forces: as a bike leans into a corner the stresses are largely radial while a 4-wheeled vehicle such as a soapbox cart relies imposes substantial lateral forces on the wheels to keep it on the road round corners so the risk of wheel failure is high.

[MODE]

Photos of Soap Box cars from Goodwood events are welcome, especially the "factory" teams, Lotus, Bentley, Mclaren ......There are not so many ones on the net, the 3 Lotus are well known but I only found one photo of the Mclaren.

Edited by MODE, 09 October 2009 - 20:20.

[D-Type]

On pages 60 and 61 of Motor Racing the golden age by John Tennant they shor pictures of the "Leighton Buzzard Derby Day races July 1952" featurig soap-boxes with steering wheels and rope steering. The start appears to have been a wooden ramp.

[2Bob]

Not soap boxes as such but HPVs (Human Powered Vehicles) race here. There is a 6 hour race on what used to be part of the Adelaide GP circuit and a 24 hour race at Murray Bridge, about an hour's drive from Adelaide. Supposedly the largest event of its kind in the world (some 25,000 spectators were expected for the last race). Vehicles are 3 wheelers. Teams are mostly from schools with classes for different age groups.

Some photos here:

http://www.news.com....014156,00.html#

Eagle eyed viewers may spot the most famous (in Australia anyway) flag waver.

[john medley]

Any nostalgia forum should contain nostalgic Billycart(so called in Australia) events.

We may, 2Bob, have been without Glen Dix but when I was very small Billycarts were Big in Bathurst where I lived. We did all that usual small boy stuff, building our own -- even one driver-lying-down weapon which predated Colin Chapman except he got it better than we did because we had our driver lying on his stomach headfirst close to the accident, which, when it happened, so dented the nose of the driver that he didnt go motor racing till late in life. Most of the rest of us did go motor racing later. We rushed down the big and little hills in Bathurst, even bravely dragging our vehicles all the way to Mount Panorama for the run down from Forrest's Elbow.

1950 was a very good year. There were state-wide Billycart competitions, based mainly, it appears, at Mt Keira nr Wollongong, and down from Forrest's Elbow at Mt Panorama. Organized by local Apex Clubs(I think-- what could they have been thinking!??), these events launched small boys down steep hills at even steeper speeds. I recall speeds of 60 + mph. I recall my friend John Scobie exiting through the post/wire fence to the right of ConRod Straight, the wire fence reducing the Billycart to matchbox size pieces in an instant -- but fortunately not John. That cart had rabbit trap springs for its IFS and a real steering wheel. A kid called Keith Burgess did well over 60 mph in a miniature 750 twin cam Austin, but sandbag-equipped, failed under brakes and went under a bus parked just before Conrod Straight's first hump. He too survived. Neither good design nor safety seemed to be of any significance ; my father would not let me go in the statewide competitions. All the other billycarts were terribly civilized, but my friend Andrew Ambrose in a tallwheeled no-bodied thing finished 3rd in one of these statewide events behind streamlined billycarts. We were then hit with more advanced technology when the kids from Mt Keira turned up for a State Championship with things made from aircraft bellytanks( just like the US salt lake hotrods we didnt even know about), and blew us all away. Whether our defeat in the face of new technology or whether some wiser head mentioned Occupational Health and Safety 1950 style I know not, but all that stopped and we went back to a few boys in Bathurst dragging our billycarts to whatever hill we could find, but still visiting hospitals often.

[Catalina Park]

There is a growing form of racing called the "Australian Illegal Gravity Racer Federation" this is not kids billycarts from the old days, this is modern adult stuff.
They work out a track that is usually made from public roads and they just turn up and have a race (this is where the "illegal" part of their name comes from).
Have a look at their blog at http://aigrf.blogspot.com/
Take a look at some of their videos on YouTube.

Edited by Catalina Park, 10 October 2009 - 11:52.

[Vitesse2]

Looking for something else, I discovered that from the 30s on, Popular Mechanics magazine was quite a supporter of the Soap Box Derby, printing rules and regs and giving hints on building racers. Here's a link to one of the earliest articles:

http://books.google....A...rby&f=false

You can find the rest by ticking the "search all issues" box on the left.

I also recall seeing a comprehensive report of the 1940 event in one of the English mags - probably Autocar - in an attempt to satisfy race-starved Europe.

[WDH74]

There is a growing form of racing called the "Australian Illegal Gravity Racer Federation" this is not kids billycarts from the old days, this is modern adult stuff.
They work out a track that is usually made from public roads and they just turn up and have a race (this is where the "illegal" part of their name comes from).
Have a look at their blog at http://aigrf.blogspot.com/
Take a look at some of their videos on YouTube.

I must emigrate and have a go at that! IIRC, the show "Wreckreation Nation" did a segment on gravity racing.

-William

[Catalina Park]

I keep watching the videos and I keep thinking that I should build something for that. It is so tempting. I think I would build something like this Cyclekart without the engine....

Edited by Catalina Park, 16 October 2009 - 10:57.

[Bauble]

http://lh6.ggpht.com...00/trolleyvatin


Any guess' as to the identity of this intrepid contributor to to TNF?

It was a long time ago.

[Tim Murray]

Well, if it's not you, Bauble, I reckon it can only be Eric Dunsdon.

[Bauble]

Well, if it's not you, Bauble, I reckon it can only be Eric Dunsdon.

Tim,
I must rate you right up there with Sherlock Holmes 'elementary' was it?

I did not realise just how famous Eric is, but I must point out that I built the trolley and took the picture!!!

Well done.

[Tim Murray]

'elementary' was it?

Bob, my 'leetle grey cells' reminded me about your recent posts about you and Eric cycling to Goodwood together in your youth, so I put two and two together ...

[Bauble]

Bob, my 'leetle grey cells' reminded me about your recent posts about you and Eric cycling to Goodwood together in your youth, so I put two and two together ...

Crikey, someone reads my posts? Well, well!

I might add Tim, that Eric hasn't changed a bit since I took that picture.

So you know the who, and roughly the when, but can you identify the where?

even you can't be that clever .........................surely?

Regards,

Bauble

[Tim Murray]

Somewhere in Bedfordshire, perchance?

[Bauble]

Somewhere in Bedfordshire, perchance?

Not a fair question, really is it Tim?

I'm afraid it's Barnet where we grew up (well sort of) it is on reclaimed ground that used to be the council tip, know universally as 'The Dumps', we raced 'track bikes' around the paths building chicanes and adding boulders to make it more interesting. We always loved racing!! Actually it is/was very close to the site of 'Barnet Fair' from which the cockney rhyming slang for hair originated, hence 'barnet' for one's tonsorial display. In my case now sadly lacking.

Any slang arising from Bristol City by any chance?

Bauble.

Just back from Silverstone and the HSCC Finals meeting.

[D-Type]

It says THE FOLLOWING ERROR(S) WERE FOUND
You are not allowed to use that image extension on this board. A valid format is: http://www.domain.com/picture.gif, an invalid format is: http://www.domain.com/picture.one.gif


Any guess' as to the identity of this intrepid contributor to to TNF?

It was a long time ago.

How much longer did that LH rear wheel last? It looks on the threshold of failure.

[plannerpower]

My son engages in modern gravity sports; here he is with his street luge which I have christened The Sled Of Death;




Here doing demonstration runs at Canberra Hillclimb;




Bathurst is the venue for Newton's Playground where gravity sports classes such as street luge, gravity bikes, billycarts etc run from Skyline to part-way down Conrod.

Speeds of over 100 km/hr are reached.

This year's event is in late November.

Googling such terms as "street luge" & gravity sports" will produce lots of photos & videos; for some really crazy stuff, Google "rollerman".



.

Edited by plannerpower, 17 October 2009 - 21:44.

[ken devine]

In Western Australia Soapbox racing is quite strong having three clubs that conduct regular meetings.The Perth club races down
Jacks Hill at the Wanneroo Raceway.The competitors are aged from 6 to 17 years.The cars are low slung with Fibreglass bodies
and small wheels,they are very competitive.

[Eric Dunsdon]

My son engages in modern gravity sports; here he is with his street luge which I have christened The Sled Of Death;




Here doing demonstration runs at Canberra Hillclimb;




Bathurst is the venue for Newton's Playground where gravity sports classes such as street luge, gravity bikes, billycarts etc run from Skyline to part-way down Conrod.

Speeds of over 100 km/hr are reached.

This year's event is in late November.

Googling such terms as "street luge" & gravity sports" will produce lots of photos & videos; for some really crazy stuff, Google "rollerman".



.

The 'safety' gear as worn in the lower picture looks just a tad extreme to us old trolley boys.

[DJO]

Near to where I live (South Staffordshire) there is an annual. post Christmas downhill race organised by drinkers at the local pub. This year its on Wednesday 30th December. I attended for the first time last year. It really is a lot of fun and I would recommend it - especially as it centres around the pub, with the paddock, bar and food in the pub car park and finish line next to the pub. The organisers raise thousands of pounds for charity each year.

Organers web site (with piccies of previous years): ["www.themadclub.com"]
Pub web site(Meynell Ingram, Hoar Cross): [www.themeynell.co.uk"]

Edited by DJO, 18 October 2009 - 12:15.

[Bauble]

How much longer did that LH rear wheel last? It looks on the threshold of failure.

D-Type,

The trolley clearly demonstrates my grasp of teknolgee, I have not got a clue as to what you are talking about!!

I struggled to post a picture atall, are you trying to tell me I have erred somehow?

If so apologies to whoever such things should be addressed.
A VERY simple explanation would be most welcome.

Kind regards,

Bauble The Contrite

[D-Type]

I haven't managed to grasp how to load pictures. I don't know how you've done it, but I've never seen that error message before! Don't apologise.

Look at the back wheel - it seems to be about to give way. I managed to mangle three of the four original pram wheels on mine! Leading to one replacement wheel, then a replacement axle with two wheels.

[Tim Murray]

I haven't managed to grasp how to load pictures. I don't know how you've done it, but I've never seen that error message before! Don't apologise.

This is most strange. The system obviously allowed Bauble to post the picture in the first place, but if I now try to quote it I get the same error message that Duncan got. Can anyone explain?

[HistoricMustang]

Henry

http://aasbd.com/pic_gallery.htm

http://aasbd.com/SBD_history.htm

http://aasbd.com/doc...champs_1934.pdf

[scooperman]

I found two of my 2003 Goodwood FOS photos of gravity racers on this PC. My other photos are (hopefully) still on the PC at home, I will try to find them tonight.

[Bauble]

I found two of my 2003 Goodwood FOS photos of gravity racers on this PC. My other photos are (hopefully) still on the PC at home, I will try to find them tonight.

These things are not soapbox trolleys, modern rubbish, like D-Type noted if the pram wheels weren't hanging off it wasn't being pushed hard enough.
Going down hill in a carbon fibre, monocoque, projectile designed in a wind tunnel, that's for whimps! Crash hats and knee pads? Get real. Get a trolley!

We are talking nostalgia here.

[scooperman]

Bauble says: "These things are not soapbox trolleys, modern rubbish, like D-Type noted if the pram wheels weren't hanging off it wasn't being pushed hard enough.
Going down hill in a carbon fibre, monocoque, projectile designed in a wind tunnel, that's for whimps! Crash hats and knee pads? Get real. Get a trolley! We are talking nostalgia here."

Mode says: "Photos of Soap Box cars from Goodwood events are welcome, especially the "factory" teams, Lotus, Bentley, Mclaren ......There are not so many ones on the net, the 3 Lotus are well known but I only found one photo of the Mclaren."

so which is it? If I find more Goodwood photos, do you want them or not?

[D-Type]

Yes please

[scooperman]

I found 3 more Goodwood 03 pics on the PC at home. I know I took a few more photos, just have not found them.

[scooperman]

Found my pictures, here they are...

[MODE]

Thanks a lot, great photos

[WDH74]

scooperman, thanks for sharing, the gravity racers were quite cool! I particularly like the Bugatti and Bentley entries-they're quite good looking!

I have a vague recollection that McLaren got a DQ for using inappropriate parts-something about using an F1 steering rack that was headed for the dustbin. Am i getting that right?

-WDH

[Vitesse2]

I remember examining the VSCC entry. It was obviously built with no expense spared, to the extent that there was no (obvious) trace of woodworm anywhere and they had even (possibly) invested in a small tin of Nitromors. The wheels were - I believe - taken from two Silver Cross perambulators, but the two pairs didn't quite match, possibly because the fronts were from a 1953 model and the rears from a 1948. Note also the single-spar central chassis, based on a unitary piece of six by two and possibly inspired by either the Jowett Jupiter or the Bristol 450 (or maybe the other way round!) Eberan von Eberhorst, thou shouldst be living at this hour ....

The cockpit was best described as "spartan" - although any original Spartan who actually sat in it might have come away a little more wooden than he started. Especially around the posterior and other even more vulnerable lower areas

The pedals were particularly simple to understand. There weren't any.

As far as I can recall, it didn't have any brakes either - although that odd bit of wood in front of the rear wheels might have fulfilled that function. Or not ....

As you can see, it was impeccably sign-written (at least on one side). It's no mean achievement to use stencils that well and all that paint must have cost at least 79p. I did think of suggesting that they should have used Letraset, but that was always difficult to apply to anything other than a smooth surface and would have been far too modern for the VSCC anyway. A woodburning kit might have been another option, but then the whole bloody thing might have caught fire!

In short - a real soapbox!

[wolf sun]

I have a vague recollection that McLaren got a DQ for using inappropriate parts-something about using an F1 steering rack that was headed for the dustbin. Am i getting that right?

-WDH

Didn't some of the Goodwood specials have some sort of KERS installed as well?

[Bauble]

I remember examining the VSCC entry. It was obviously built with no expense spared, to the extent that there was no (obvious) trace of woodworm anywhere and they had even (possibly) invested in a small tin of Nitromors. The wheels were - I believe - taken from two Silver Cross perambulators, but the two pairs didn't quite match, possibly because the fronts were from a 1953 model and the rears from a 1948. Note also the single-spar central chassis, based on a unitary piece of six by two and possibly inspired by either the Jowett Jupiter or the Bristol 450 (or maybe the other way round!) Eberan von Eberhorst, thou shouldst be living at this hour ....

The cockpit was best described as "spartan" - although any original Spartan who actually sat in it might have come away a little more wooden than he started. Especially around the posterior and other even more vulnerable lower areas

The pedals were particularly simple to understand. There weren't any.

As far as I can recall, it didn't have any brakes either - although that odd bit of wood in front of the rear wheels might have fulfilled that function. Or not ....

As you can see, it was impeccably sign-written (at least on one side). It's no mean achievement to use stencils that well and all that paint must have cost at least 79p. I did think of suggesting that they should have used Letraset, but that was always difficult to apply to anything other than a smooth surface and would have been far too modern for the VSCC anyway. A woodburning kit might have been another option, but then the whole bloody thing might have caught fire!

In short - a real soapbox!

Viewers might care to take a second look at the picture of Eric Dunsdon on/in his trolley, this also used a 2"X2" central spar extended at the rear by a short length of plank, on to, which was bolted a cross member. The rear pram axle was held on to the cross member by four inch nails bent into a hoop. The front end consisted of a similar arrangement, with a hole drilled through the cross member to match a hole in the front of the central spar and a large bolt held the two pieces togther and allowed steering of the front wheels using the yoke mechanism as shown. This yoke was pushed from side to side to change direction, and the wheel held by the driver was mainly to look flash. Later models had a simplified system that utilised a lenght of rope tied either side of the front axle, while the drivers feet, resting on the cross member provided 'feel' and stability. An old box nailed on the the plank extention served as a seat. An attempt to provide a degree of driver comfort by nailing some old socks to the sides of the box,caused Eric to declare contemptuoulsy that it was 'a racing trolley, not a graveyard for condemned socks'. Such gratitude.
Of course back in the fifties we didn't have carbon fibre!!.

Chief Designer, Bauble.

[Eric Dunsdon]

Viewers might care to take a second look at the picture of Eric Dunsdon on/in his trolley, this also used a 2"X2" central spar extended at the rear by a short length of plank, on to, which was bolted a cross member. The rear pram axle was held on to the cross member by four inch nails bent into a hoop. The front end consisted of a similar arrangement, with a hole drilled through the cross member to match a hole in the front of the central spar and a large bolt held the two pieces togther and allowed steering of the front wheels using the yoke mechanism as shown. This yoke was pushed from side to side to change direction, and the wheel held by the driver was mainly to look flash. Later models had a simplified system that utilised a lenght of rope tied either side of the front axle, while the drivers feet, resting on the cross member provided 'feel' and stability. An old box nailed on the the plank extention served as a seat. An attempt to provide a degree of driver comfort by nailing some old socks to the sides of the box,caused Eric to declare contemptuoulsy that it was 'a racing trolley, not a graveyard for condemned socks'. Such gratitude.
Of course back in the fifties we didn't have carbon fibre!!.

Chief Designer, Bauble.

That 'Yoke' steering mechanism was actually an old pair of cycle forks which were skillfully moulded into shape by bending them around the downflow drainpipe of my mum and dads house. No self respecting 'trolley ace' ever bothered about brakes.. Like our hero Nuvolari we wanted to find ways of going faster not slowing down!.
The best way of stopping in an emergency was to aim for something soft such as a privet hedge or, as on one dramatic occasion, a parked Austin 7 Ruby..Happy days!.