89 replies to this topic

[Ijsman]

Somebody know this? And how was it measured? I'm just curious, because people who haven't heard it are apparently unimpressed by the sound on TV and can't obviously not hear how loud it is IRL. Somebody help me out please!

[mariner]

In the real world it is SERIOUSLY loud.

Lat year I was lucky enough to do Monaco practice (Swimming pool chicane) and Siverstone qualifying (Woodcote). To be honest the noise is loud at Silverstone but you are some way from the track and it is "wide open space"s so it is not painful. Monaco at the complex is very different as the pits exit is behind you as well, result lots of very high level noise at high frequency in full surround sound. After about an hour it gets tiring without ear plugs.

In terms of absolute intensity both pale in insignificance versus Top fuel dragsters at full launch, that quite literally physicaly shakes your stomach and teeth albeit for only 1 -2 seconds. Utterly addictive though!

[Ijsman]

Yeah I know how loud it is, I've been to F1 4 times IRL, but not in Monaco yet. At Spa you can hear the cars even when you're kilometres far off the track. Haven't been to dragsters though. But I think an F1 car in the garage fully revving comes close?

Anyways I just wanna know how much it is in DB so I can compare it to other stuff.

Edited by Ijsman, 14 October 2009 - 17:21.

[dank]

Typical F1 car ranges between 110 - 130 dB.

[Bill S]

Typical F1 car ranges between 110 - 130 dB.

At what distance?

I was at Brands Hatch in 1994 when Mansell was testing for his comback in the William I think, and he was the only car on the track. There was one point on the track where the car was pointing exactly away from me so I could see straight down the exhaust pipes, and even though the car was about 400 metres away it was remarkably loud.
Delightfully loud.

[gruntguru]

Haven't been to dragsters though. But I think an F1 car in the garage fully revving comes close?

Not even close - very different. Top fuel cars emit high amplitude infrasound - frequencies so low your ears don't hear them - your body feels them. HP you can feel without being in the car!

[Canuck]

Nothing quite so overwhelming as a TF car at full chat, and as somebody said - terribly addictive.

[GreenMachine]

Not even close - very different. Top fuel cars emit high amplitude infrasound - frequencies so low your ears don't hear them - your body feels them. HP you can feel without being in the car!

Crossing a footbridge over the Adelaide GP circuit, with open steps (no risers), the tubo F1 cars were accelerating hard out of the preceding corner - as I stood there, my diaphram was resonating with the 'noise', a most peculiar feeling, and a clear indicator of the power being generated from those tiny engines. And my ears were hurting, even with the earplugs in properly ... That was loud!

[Ijsman]

Typical F1 car ranges between 110 - 130 dB.

Source?

[dank]

Remember reading about it a few years ago. I'm sure a Google search will suggest pretty much the same?

[Ijsman]

I tried it, but everyone is saying something different. There are people at yahoo saying it's like 120. There are people saying that in the cockpit it's 130, but the most noise is behind the car so it should be around 140.

It's all guessing, you know, and I want something concrete. And I rather also know from what place or what method it is measured with.

[roadie]

I too have no hard figures, only personal experience. I was at the demo BMW put on in Hyde park a couple of years ago and was no more than 5m away from JV giving it full beans it was loud certainly, but because the car was gone so very, very quickly (even more impressive) it wasn't that bad.

[Wuzak]

Yes, they are very loud.

I find that in Melbourne during pactice with cars passing by infrequently I can usually get by without ear plugs, but come race when all the cars are on track ear plugs are necessary.

Never seen Top Fuel dragsters live, but have had the experience of watching a Top Doorslammer (alcohol engine) and recall a similar "feeling the sound" experince. Mind you, that was back when the Oz Doorslammers hadn't breached 7s, now they regularly run into the 5s.

[gruntguru]

I tried it, but everyone is saying something different. There are people at yahoo saying it's like 120. There are people saying that in the cockpit it's 130, but the most noise is behind the car so it should be around 140.

It's all guessing, you know, and I want something concrete. And I rather also know from what place or what method it is measured with.

SPL is so highly dependant on measurement location and method so you will always get different claims from different sources. Sure its 140db behind the car but at what distance? Its probably that loud at 10m if you are directly behind, and of course much louder as you get closer.

[mariner]

Just a comment on noise measurement from puting my "toy car" through the UK SVA test which includes a noise test.

The standard to pass was 101Db which is measured at 0.5 metres from each exhaust. Any differences between exhaust outlets cannot be averaged, the engine has to be a 2/3rd of full power revs.

The tough part is how close the noise is measured, as mentioned above the readings vary with distance and the drop off is very noticable. I have hand held meter which gave reasonably close results versus the SVA fully calibrated one ( off by 1- 2 DB.)Even coming back from 0.5 metres to 1.0 metres drops it 1 0r 3 Db. given that it is a log scale that is a big variation. Fortunately I use Super Trapps which have a variable number of discs so you can choke down the exhaust by going to very few discs, that richens the air/fuel ratio so it is a case of juggling Db versus Co but it did work.

So I agree with the comments above on the difficulty of measuring F1 noise levels. I recall that Ferrari got a University ( Bolgona?) to do clever things on track sped analysis using competitors exhaust noise off the TV feed but that used frequency which does not change.

If F1 ever followed amateur racing and imposed noise limits I can just imagine the test rules complexities the teams and the FIA would dream up!

[Greg Locock]

The simple rule, for a point source, is that for every doubling of distance gives a 6 dB drop. For a line source (probably not applicable) 3 dB.

However in the near field things are more complex.

Also you need to add in the effect of the weighting field that you are using, A weighting, typically.

Also there is no particular correlation between full throttle noise and no throttle noise at the same revs. And there is no correlation between noise at different revs. And the noise varies depending on which direction you are measuring.

Apart from that, yes everything that has been written thus far is helpful.

Edited by Greg Locock, 17 October 2009 - 11:51.

[GeorgeTheCar]

many years ago I stood 3 feet behind a McLaren M8A, 430 Chev V8, with a friend who was a co-op student at a steel works.

He was doing sound analysis work and brought a very large Bruel & Kjer sound meter and recorded 134 dba peak

I can tell you my ear drums were dancing!

It was loud but not nearly as loud as a top fuel car, unfortunately no sound level meter.

Edited by GeorgeTheCar, 17 October 2009 - 22:32.

[gruntguru]

many years ago I stood 3 feet behind a McLaren M8A, 430 Chev V8, with a friend who was a co-op student at a steel works.

He was doing sound analysis work and brought a very large Bruel & Kjer sound meter and recorded 134 dba peak

I can tell you my ear drums were dancing!

It was loud but not nearly as loud as a top fuel car, unfortunately no sound level meter.

How was the car being operated to produce that sound level? Throttle blips, steady no-load revs?
Since you were standing behind it, I assume it wasn't operating at peak hp with the wheels turning 100mph (which would produce far greater sound levels) - unless it was on a chassis dyno.

[GeorgeTheCar]

Just being run up by the mech prior to qualifying

[McGuire]

Yes, they are very loud.

I find that in Melbourne during pactice with cars passing by infrequently I can usually get by without ear plugs, but come race when all the cars are on track ear plugs are necessary.

Never seen Top Fuel dragsters live, but have had the experience of watching a Top Doorslammer (alcohol engine) and recall a similar "feeling the sound" experince. Mind you, that was back when the Oz Doorslammers hadn't breached 7s, now they regularly run into the 5s.

Top Fuel/FC engines are the loudest things I've ever heard, which includes jet and rocket engines and standing a foot in front of Ted Nugent's amps. You can feel the noise in your chest and feet. Makes your chest sorta hurt. Far louder than an alcohol motor, like an order of magnitude.

I wouldn't consider current F1 engines particularly noisy. NASCAR and IRL engines are considerably louder. The most memorable exhaust I've heard might be the Mercedes M163. Really piercing. When Jochen Maas revved it up the mob scattered with their fingers in their ears, but I just stood there grinning like an idiot. That gave him a laugh and he gave me the first ride. Also got to ride in the SSKL the same day. Interesting car, has a big foot pedal on the floor to engage the blower. The blower's sound is not at all loud, of course, but it is entertaining and distinctive.

[Tony Matthews]

Top Fuel/FC engines are the loudest things I've ever heard, which includes jet and rocket engines and standing a foot in front of Ted Nugent's amps. You can feel the noise in your chest and feet. Makes your chest sorta hurt. Far louder than an alcohol motor, like an order of magnitude.

I wouldn't consider current F1 engines particularly noisy. NASCAR and IRL engines are considerably louder. The most memorable exhaust I've heard might be the Mercedes M163. Really piercing. When Jochen Maas revved it up the mob scattered with their fingers in their ears, but I just stood there grinning like an idiot. That gave him a laugh and he gave me the first ride. Also got to ride in the SSKL the same day. Interesting car, has a big foot pedal on the floor to engage the blower. The blower's sound is not at all loud, of course, but it is entertaining and distinctive.

I haven't heard a Top Fuel engine, I hope to some day, and I'm sure they are loud. F1 engines grab the attention with pitch rather than decibels, I think. Some engine noises are unbearable even though they are not the loudest - much with rock bands, I suggest. I saw a band called Terraplane or something, a support act for some one better known, and I tore up bits of burger wrapper to stick in my ears. The main act was even louder, but bearable, and enjoyable due to the nature of the sound. I think everyone complained about the rotary-engined Mazda at Le Mans, even several hundred yards away on the campsites!

I wish I'd witnessed a Saturn VI launch, that must have been a sound, otherwise the most memorable is a formation of three Vulcan bombers doing a low flypast at Farnborough in the late Fifties, at an AoA of about 30 degrees, the ground shaking, diaphragm and chest vibrating with the pressure-waves!

[mariner]

The simple rule, for a point source, is that for every doubling of distance gives a 6 dB drop. For a line source (probably not applicable) 3 dB.

However in the near field things are more complex.

Also you need to add in the effect of the weighting field that you are using, A weighting, typically.

Also there is no particular correlation between full throttle noise and no throttle noise at the same revs. And there is no correlation between noise at different revs. And the noise varies depending on which direction you are measuring.

Apart from that, yes everything that has been written thus far is helpful.

Does that imply that there is a very different level of noise betwen no load and full load? I would assume this to be the case but it practice it is complicated by the fact that for no load revving you are often nearby ( i.e the paddock etc.) whereas for full load you are usually some distance away , i.e the grandstands.

For top fuel I think you never really hear the engine rev on no load as they cannot run them very long in the pits due to no cooling etc.

For the legistlative "drive by" noise tests are the cars on test allowed to go by at a constant throttle or must they be acelerating?

[gruntguru]

I think everyone complained about the rotary-engined Mazda at Le Mans, even several hundred yards away on the campsites!

You've reminded me of a supercharged rotary that ran speedway here many years ago. For a while it ran with open exhausts like all the other cars at the time, but he was told to put a muffler on it - it was VERY loud!!

[Greg Locock]

Does that imply that there is a very different level of noise betwen no load and full load? I would assume this to be the case but it practice it is complicated by the fact that for no load revving you are often nearby ( i.e the paddock etc.) whereas for full load you are usually some distance away , i.e the grandstands.

For top fuel I think you never really hear the engine rev on no load as they cannot run them very long in the pits due to no cooling etc.

For the legistlative "drive by" noise tests are the cars on test allowed to go by at a constant throttle or must they be acelerating?

Difference between full load and no load depends on where you measure it, but is probably 3-5 dBA for a production car. For a race car it might be quite different. For drive by in a manual you start in a specified gear at 50 kph, and use full throttle. It is a fairly idiotic test, easy to game if you are desperate. Some of the European markets (Switzerland in particular) have set the limit so low that the loudest noise at full throttle is tire noise, followed by windnoise. In that case it is important to have a quiet road surface. In the old days the dominant sources were intake and exhaust noise. Noise radiated directly from the engine block is also significant especially for diesels, hence the tendency towards full undertrays under the engine. All this is from 15 years ago, I haven't actually done one of these tests for 20 years.

[Canuck]

I grew up in a small town that was lucky to have a cadre of 13 second cars, never mind a proper TF car. When I moved to a city with a track, I made it my goal to attend the local drags as often as I could. One of my first major outings was a special Father's Day event - the usual masses of low-to-mid teens street cars, a handful of 8 and 9 second cars which astounded me and then the big boys. First out where the alcohol funny cars and the noise they generated on their way by shocked me. I was amazed at how their sound could have such a significant physical presence up in the bleachers...and then Don Garlist and Shirley Muldowney made their exhibition pass in their TF rails. I don't have the words to communicate the sheer volume of noise and pressure they generated. Volume in the volumetric sense, not loudness. When McGuire says it's an order of magnitude louder than an alcohol car, that might even be an understatement. It is the most frightening - and the most beautiful - noise I've ever heard at a race track.

[Catalina Park]

Years ago when I was racing we used to pull up at the top of Hawkesbury Hill lookout on the way home from Amaroo Park. The lookout was about two miles from Castlereagh Dragstrip but we were on top of a cliff looking over the river flats and if the top fuelers were running we were able to see the smoke rise as the cars took off and then about ten seconds later (it seemed like ten from memory!) the noise would hit us. It went, Smoke ............... Boom!

[fester82]

I found a couple websites that actually measured the decible levels.

WebsiteJim West, a professor at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, measured the F-1 noise levels. "It is hard to find another working environment where workers are exposed to such continuous noise", he said. F-1 drivers always wear ear protection to reduce their noise exposure, but this is not the case for the spectators. Most motor sports fans would never dream of filtering the noise from the race cars. To them, the noise is part of the thrill. But when an F-1 race car roars by 15 metres from you, the noise level where you stand is 125 dB, enough to inflict permanent damage on your hearing. It is common sense and a great idea to use earplugs to protect your hearing next time you are in the stands at a Formula One Grand Prix.

Website
The noise level emitted from vehicles on the circuit during the Formula-1 event, on April 4th 2004, was acceptable and caused no physical disturbance to the fans in the VIP lounges or to scholars studying at the University of Bahrain’s Shakeir Campus, which is only 1.5 km away from the circuit. The sound-intensity level (SIL) recorded on the balcony of the VIP lounge was 128 dB(A) and was 80 dB(A) inside the lounge. The calculated SIL immediately outside the lecture halls of the University of Bahrain was 70 dB(A) and 65 dB(A) within them. Thus racing at BIC can proceed without significantly disturbing the academic-learning process.

[Greg Locock]

I found a couple websites that actually measured the decible levels.

WebsiteJim West, a professor at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, measured the F-1 noise levels. "It is hard to find another working environment where workers are exposed to such continuous noise", he said. F-1 drivers always wear ear protection to reduce their noise exposure, but this is not the case for the spectators. Most motor sports fans would never dream of filtering the noise from the race cars. To them, the noise is part of the thrill. But when an F-1 race car roars by 15 metres from you, the noise level where you stand is 125 dB, enough to inflict permanent damage on your hearing. It is common sense and a great idea to use earplugs to protect your hearing next time you are in the stands at a Formula One Grand Prix.

Website
The noise level emitted from vehicles on the circuit during the Formula-1 event, on April 4th 2004, was acceptable and caused no physical disturbance to the fans in the VIP lounges or to scholars studying at the University of Bahrain’s Shakeir Campus, which is only 1.5 km away from the circuit. The sound-intensity level (SIL) recorded on the balcony of the VIP lounge was 128 dB(A) and was 80 dB(A) inside the lounge. The calculated SIL immediately outside the lecture halls of the University of Bahrain was 70 dB(A) and 65 dB(A) within them. Thus racing at BIC can proceed without significantly disturbing the academic-learning process.

Unfortunately neither report advances the cause overmuch. A dB reading wthout specifying the response speed of the meter(ideally) (fast slow or impukse, peak or Leq (etc)) and the weighting netweork used (A B C D or linear)(definitely) isn't much help. The second would have been if they'd included the distance from the track to the lounge.

[Ijsman]

I found a couple websites that actually measured the decible levels.

WebsiteJim West, a professor at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, measured the F-1 noise levels. "It is hard to find another working environment where workers are exposed to such continuous noise", he said. F-1 drivers always wear ear protection to reduce their noise exposure, but this is not the case for the spectators. Most motor sports fans would never dream of filtering the noise from the race cars. To them, the noise is part of the thrill. But when an F-1 race car roars by 15 metres from you, the noise level where you stand is 125 dB, enough to inflict permanent damage on your hearing. It is common sense and a great idea to use earplugs to protect your hearing next time you are in the stands at a Formula One Grand Prix.

Website
The noise level emitted from vehicles on the circuit during the Formula-1 event, on April 4th 2004, was acceptable and caused no physical disturbance to the fans in the VIP lounges or to scholars studying at the University of Bahrain’s Shakeir Campus, which is only 1.5 km away from the circuit. The sound-intensity level (SIL) recorded on the balcony of the VIP lounge was 128 dB(A) and was 80 dB(A) inside the lounge. The calculated SIL immediately outside the lecture halls of the University of Bahrain was 70 dB(A) and 65 dB(A) within them. Thus racing at BIC can proceed without significantly disturbing the academic-learning process.

Thanks! I've been away like 5-10 meters from the track, at the bottom of eau rouge, must have been 125+ DB there then. I think I took my ear plugs out once to hear how loud it really was. Not that smart, but extremely satisfying.

[Villes Gilleneuve]

I can tell you, hearing multiple cars through the Monaco tunnel requires hearing protection or you will go seriously deaf in a few laps.

[Scotracer]

I think at a range of 1 metre they are 140dB. I remember that well at the 2006 Goodwood Festival of Speed where Ricardo Zonta in the 2005 Toyota lit it up in the paddock...about 1 metre from my ear. It was sore for days! I also now have permanent hearing damage from attending a lot of F1 stuff.

[Ijsman]

I think at a range of 1 metre they are 140dB. I remember that well at the 2006 Goodwood Festival of Speed where Ricardo Zonta in the 2005 Toyota lit it up in the paddock...about 1 metre from my ear. It was sore for days! I also now have permanent hearing damage from attending a lot of F1 stuff.

Yeah I know, I always have light tweets in my ear. Probably the most is from Hockenheim, I was seated at turn 1 and the noise of the cars stays there for a really long time because the straight after it is opposite to where you sit so you get the full volume.

[Madras]

I believe Adrian Newey has quite poor hearing these days.

Hearing damage sucks, there's no point in not wearing ear protection at F1 races. I hate earplugs though, over ear protectors are much better.

[racersteven]

I will never forget the fury and awesome sound of the Honda V-12 while watching Ayrton senna qualify at the US GP in 1991. It sounded like shotgun blasts as the Mclaren Honda was going down through the gears. People always talk about the Ferrari V-12 engines but I always thought the Honda v-12 sounded better.

[Tony Matthews]

I hate earplugs though, over ear protectors are much better.

They look cool, too, unlike earplugs.

[crashgate]

it depends if they accelerate or decelerate
acceleration from 10000 to15000 RPM is the loudest

Edited by crashgate, 23 October 2009 - 08:56.

[Bill S]

They look cool, too, unlike earplugs.

I'm the opposite - I much prefer foam earplugs.

it depends if they accelerate or decelerate
acceleration from 10000 to15000 RPM is the loudest

That's around max torque, not max horsepower, ja?;)

[crashgate]

That's around max torque, not max horsepower, ja?;)

torque is where the noise comes from

Edited by crashgate, 23 October 2009 - 09:11.

[Bill S]

torque is where the noise comes from

Yeah I know, I'm just stirring.;)

[crashgate]

Yeah I know, I'm just stirring.;)

thats ok

Edited by crashgate, 23 October 2009 - 11:22.

[RJL]

Fwiw, my roommate tells me that Speed TV has figured out that ZZ Top is louder than F1.

[Ijsman]

Fwiw, my roommate tells me that Speed TV has figured out that ZZ Top is louder than F1.

They must be cheating... They probably use speakers.

FWIW.. another new short I can add to my vocabulary..

Edited by Ijsman, 29 October 2009 - 13:17.

[Lee Nicolle]

Having heard both F1 and TopFuel there is no contest.Top Fuel is far louder as it should be as they have 3 times the HP.Even Alcohol cars are louder but not as sharp as F1.The fuel as much as anything makes the noise as otherwise the engines are similar for the drag cars. And F1 use petrol, though not quite pump fuel though.
We have/had a dragstrip next door to the Speedway and you can hear the Fuel cars over the top of a field of Sprintcars [at reputedly 95db]And the strip is about 700m away.
There is somewhat hypocrisy at F1 events, they run open exhausts and the support race competitors are being black flagged for noise. Been there done that.
Though noise is very subjective, the same car was never as problem at most circuits but when cloud cover was down, or echoing out of grandstands then I had a problem. When the cloud lifted problem solved.

[gruntguru]

Having heard both F1 and TopFuel there is no contest.Top Fuel is far louder as it should be as they have 3 times the HP.

Don't you mean 10 times the HP?

The fuel as much as anything makes the noise as otherwise the engines are similar for the drag cars. And F1 use petrol, though not quite pump fuel though.

The Top fuel engine has a much lower thermal efficiency so there is a much higher percentage of the fuel energy dissipated from the exhaust as heat and noise. Partly due to the slow combustion of nitro fuel, but also due to the need to continue combustion late in the power stroke since peak pressure (and therefore temperature) early in the stroke is already at the limit.

Edited by gruntguru, 02 November 2009 - 02:12.

[Canuck]

You're saying 8000+ hp is a TF engine these days? Remarkable.

[Ijsman]

Having heard both F1 and TopFuel there is no contest.Top Fuel is far louder as it should be as they have 3 times the HP.Even Alcohol cars are louder but not as sharp as F1.The fuel as much as anything makes the noise as otherwise the engines are similar for the drag cars. And F1 use petrol, though not quite pump fuel though.
We have/had a dragstrip next door to the Speedway and you can hear the Fuel cars over the top of a field of Sprintcars [at reputedly 95db]And the strip is about 700m away.
There is somewhat hypocrisy at F1 events, they run open exhausts and the support race competitors are being black flagged for noise. Been there done that.
Though noise is very subjective, the same car was never as problem at most circuits but when cloud cover was down, or echoing out of grandstands then I had a problem. When the cloud lifted problem solved.

This thread is not about dragster decibel but F1 decibel.

[P.Dron]

Further to various previous posts, it seems to me that the present method of measuring noise levels for any type of racing is deeply flawed. For example, I remember a meeting at Donington where I watched the first few laps of a Honda CRX race. A couple of dozen of those things buzzing past in close formation about 50 yards away was physically painful, even with plugs in one's lugs. On the other hand, the TVR Tuscans, though quite loud, made a far more pleasant sound, and they were not painful on the ear whether you were at the side of the track or behind the wheel; I once forgot to put my earplugs in for a qualifying session, and it was really quite acceptable. Yet that day at Donington, the CRX racers passed the noise test without any difficulty, whereas the Tuscans were quite close to being banned.

Is there not a better way of measuring noise? Tony Matthews mentioned the distinction between pitch and decibels. That must surely be the key, though as someone mentioned, there are many ways of fiddling things to obtain the required result. Some road cars, for example, have had rather strange gear ratios, purely to obtain a pass mark in the drive-by test.

Edited by P.Dron, 12 January 2010 - 11:03.

[BrendanMcF]

dBA weighting on Wikipedia

dBA is a weighting scale which is supposed to correspond to human hearing, but is actually a bit of a fudge and is not truly relevant at all loudness levels.

A-weighting is only really valid for relatively quiet sounds and for pure tones

The dBA scale should not really be used for measuring the sound of unrestricted racing engines, and there are others which are much more appropriate.

Does anyone know what weighting is currently being used?

Update: Answered my own question. MSV mandate noise limits in dBA, between 105 and 118 dbA for cars at Snetterton for example.

Edited by BrendanMcF, 12 January 2010 - 12:57.

[cheapracer]

You guys are all kidding yourselves, today fighter jets were playing overhead and there isn't those silly airspace and noise restrictions here, **** they were loud, fast and low.

They kept coming around and doing rolls while dropping flares over the airforce base - quite spectacular, oh and LOUD!

I got my video ready for tomorrow if it happens again so if you don't hear from me ever again you know they saw me videoing them!!

[cheapracer]

This thread is not about dragster decibel but F1 decibel.

It's an issue that warrants comparison with comparative sports leading up to the real issue at hand -

Torque Vs HP