323 replies to this topic

[-Jesse-]

Hello everyone, my second post here.

I'm creating Meadowdale for various different racing games, but I decided to post this topic here rather than at 'racing simulations'-forum since the subject is much more about Meadowdale than it is about the simulations.

First I'd like to thank all the people that have contributed to this project. R. Fosbender, B. Pohnan, M. Bednowicz, S. Brener, T. Stephani, M. Urbanski and everyone else! This project would have been impossible without all your info, images, maps, on-site chamber measurements, 3D modeling and so on. This all started in 2001 and died for a while, but it's now up and running faster than ever. The original plan was to build the track for Grand Prix Legends, but because of several reasons it's now being build for SIMBIN games.

The current situation is that the track layout is ready and drivable (LOTS of fun!), the surrounding terrain is under construction, the pits and the silo are there, but lots of objects/buildings/walls needs to be done, textures to paint etc. Here's a small preview image of the track today.

Meadowdale reconstruction today

But the very reason for this topic is that I would love to see more photographs of certain parts of Meadowdale. I have about 450 images, 20 maps, few videos, 300 video captures, 15 aerial images etc.) but since I'm an engineer, I'd like everything to be perfect I also do have "everything" about MIR from the internet (Fosbender's magnificent site, the awesome gallery of Ron Nelson (classicvintagemotorsports.com), LIFE images, Autosport topics, etc.) but there are still some parts that are not very well shown in any images.

I made this map to show the sections of the track that would be great to have more info of:

Map

I know most of this stuff is something that usually isn't photographed at a racetrack, but anything will do.

To list the stuff on the map, here's a short summary:
- The 3 entrance areas of the track (I haven't seen a single image of them)
- The whole south section of the track (very few images from there). This includes the pond between Monza Wall and Stefan's Straight
- All the tunnels and the bridges (especially what the tunnels looked like from below)
- Buildings, the towers (especially the one on the main straight), the building inside Doane's corner and the one behind grand stands
- Little Monza, especially the end section of it
- The uphill section (start and middle part of it)

Any picture not previously seen in the net is certainly very highly appreciated! If you wish not to post your images here, please e-mail them to me! Please feel free to ask about the project etc. here or by e-mail. Thank you all! I hope my english wasn't too bad...

Edited by -Jesse-, 07 April 2011 - 15:53.

[ZOOOM]

These pictures were taken by a 13 year old boy.... Me.
They were taken with a Brownie Starflash 126 film camera, with a 50 mm fixed plastic lens.
They arn't great but should suffice for your needs.
Reguards,
ZOOOM



The uphill looking east from the bridge at the top of the hill.


Same but closer to the top.


Heuer in the Bocar going under the bridge pointing back at the main straight.


Same place different car.


Shooting west, after the bridge, from the bridge.
Also note the shortcut from the main straight entering the lower section to make the short course.
(on the right)


Here are some stockers on the shortcut. The previous picture would have showed these cars about 60 feet further to the left, entering the old course.


This shows the bridge on the rise on the area after the top of the uphill. The shot is taken looking from the inside of the course, south east.


Nice color shot of (I have no idea) entering the little Monza. (turn one).


This is taken from the outside of the Doans hairpin, looking south. It shows the pedestrian tunnel (and bridge) to get cars into the hairpin area.
It is just before th start of the straight to the big Monza.


This is basically from the same spot but looking at the exit of Doans. That's the Corvette SS that appeared at Sebring one and only time. It was being exhibited at the inagural race and driven by Duntov (IIRC).

I have never shown these before as the quality isn't too good. It should help you with the way the track looked though.
Enjoy!

ZOOOM

Edited by ZOOOM, 15 October 2009 - 14:42.

[RA Historian]

Jesse, I have sent you a PM on this subject.

I sent it just before Zooom posted his photos. Zooom's photos should be a great help to you as he shows the bridges and the tunnels, which rarely show up in any photos. As you can see from his shots, the track was a bit rustic!

Tom

[ZOOOM]

Rustic, my ass!
The first race had clouds of good old midwest dirt blowing so hard the race was almost stopped.
When Besinger plowed up the dirt to make the course, he never planted grass or anything to cover the dirt!

ZOOOM

[-Jesse-]

This started waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay much better than I could have ever dreamed of! Thank you! And the pictures are excellent, quality wise too!

And to everybody, please don't let quality, size, etc. prevent you from posting your MIR pics. And please don't necessarily narrow the photographs to those things I listed. Unseen or little known pics from Meadowdale are always nice to look at. There can never be too many MIR pics, can there

[ZOOOM]

Here is a picture of the paddock & pits. from the west looking east.


And here is what the pits actually looked like. The cars are all pointing backwards towards the Monza Wall.
The upper deck was used for special guests. Above that area, closer to the start/finish, was a third level for race control (such as it was).

We can laugh now but the Meadowdale race course was not much different than the much bragged about Riverside course in California, as far as amenities and starkness...
And Meadowdale actually had TREES!

ZOOOM

[WDH74]

Jesse-so which Simbin games will this be compatible with? I currently only have GT Legends (which would be the only one I'd be interested in trying this track with anyway), although I remember reading about it's development for GPL (which I no longer play).

We can laugh now but the Meadowdale race course was not much different than the much bragged about Riverside course in California, as far as amenities and starkness...
And Meadowdale actually had TREES!

Or Road America, for that matter. Period photos of both RA and MIR are strikingly similar-cars parked in grassy fields, no pit garages, wood bleachers, wooden snack bars, cloth banners advertising beer, and chicken wire fencing. May I ask, when did the majority of structures finally disappear from the MIR site? Ross Fosbender's site has a reprint of an article from the seventies or early eighties that shows some collapsed buildings still on-site. By the time I'd discovered the place (2002-3ish) the only remnants were the two bridge skeletons (now down to one) and the silo. Abandoned/outdated architecture is a photographic interest of mine, and I think I would have enjoyed shooting the site in that state.

-William

[Aero426]

May I ask, when did the majority of structures finally disappear from the MIR site? Ross Fosbender's site has a reprint of an article from the seventies or early eighties that shows some collapsed buildings still on-site. By the time I'd discovered the place (2002-3ish) the only remnants were the two bridge skeletons (now down to one) and the silo. Abandoned/outdated architecture is a photographic interest of mine, and I think I would have enjoyed shooting the site in that state.

-William

Harry Cooper's article that appeared in Stock Car Racing in 1978 shows some structures in very poor shape, and alludes to the timing tower still being there.

Cooper's article fascinated me for years, and it was not until 1991 when I visited the ruins for the first time, amazed it was still there among all the development. At that time there was nothing left other than the two iron bridges and silo. The only piece of building structure I could recognize was some shingles and decking of the fuel station pancaked on the ground next to the concrete pump island (which may still be there off in the weeds).

The double deck wooden pit edifice did not last long. Probably built with leftovers from Besingers construction projects, it looks in poor shape a few years after being built with paint peeling off. It was gone by the '64 USRRC race with the center timing tower remaining.

Any non metal or brick infrastructure remaining after the demise of the track would not have lasted long due to their wooden construction, harsh winter climate and vandals, the latter being the biggest problem. The amount of abandoned cars, junk appliances and crap dumped by trespassers before the property was acquired by government was significant. There has been a tremendous clean up of the site.

This photo is from the washout area in the very early 90's. There are several more cars down the bottom of the chasm.

Edited by Aero426, 16 October 2009 - 03:52.

[Aero426]

This is the late 60's era tunnel looking from the esses into the paddock area under the main straight.

[hlfuzzball]

I've got some black&white snapshots of the track under construction that I took one Sunday afternoon in 1958. No scanner at present to insert them in this thread though.

Tom

[Aero426]

I've got some black&white snapshots of the track under construction that I took one Sunday afternoon in 1958. No scanner at present to insert them in this thread though.

Tom

Those would be exciting to see. I am sure if you can't get them scanned one of us can scan and return your prints.

[-Jesse-]

Thank you again for all the pictures!

WDH74, the sims will be rFactor, Race 07, GTR Evolution, GTR2 and GT Legends. Right now I have the track editor license for rFactor only, but as soon as I can save enough money, I'll buy the license for the rest of them. My personal favourite is GTR2, with the Power & Glory mod. Can't wait to go around MIR in a Shelby Daytona Coupe!

Aero426, the pits was already gone by june of 1962 as you can see in my aerial image of MIR in the 'Meadowdale mayhem' thread. Albeit is was there for only 4 years or so, it's included in my track as it is IMO a great looking building.

hlfuzzball, I hope you can find a way for us all to enjoy your pics.

Edited by -Jesse-, 16 October 2009 - 15:44.

[Muzza]

I don't have any relevant document to help this work, but I just would like to express my support for what you guys are doing. Virtual reconstructions of circuits of by-gone eras are one of the best things contemporary technology has to offer us! Go forth.

[HistoricMustang]

What great photographs.

It is amazing what is out there to still be discovered or lost!

Henry

[WDH74]

Aero, thanks for the info and pics. I've not really explored the washout area much. The tunnel appears to be blocked now (I've been down on the paddock side and it's completely dark). Funnily, on t'other side (up top) there's an old seventies GM pickup cab half buried there, and the seats are somewhere nearby. I have a very recent photo of it I'll try and post. Also, the gas pump pad is still out there, I've seen it (unless it's been torn up real recently). I'm waiting for the plant life to finally die for the season before I make another sortie.

Again, I wish I'd have known about this place before I did, although I was four when the magazine article was published, so I wouldn't have been able to see it anyway. Sounds like most of it was gone by the time I'd have gotten my license.

-William

[RShaw]

Maybe more appropriately a candidate for the "Meadowdale mayhem" thread, but this is 1959 anyway.
My point in posting it here is the ladder in the background. I don't recall whether there was a corner worker post on the other end of the ladder, or somebody's tree house, or maybe the remnants of Jack's beanstalk efforts, but I'll bet ZOOOOM knows.
I think this is part way around Doane corner, before the straight leading to the Wall.
RonS.

[Aero426]

Aero, thanks for the info and pics. I've not really explored the washout area much. The tunnel appears to be blocked now (I've been down on the paddock side and it's completely dark). Funnily, on t'other side (up top) there's an old seventies GM pickup cab half buried there, and the seats are somewhere nearby. I have a very recent photo of it I'll try and post. Also, the gas pump pad is still out there, I've seen it (unless it's been torn up real recently). I'm waiting for the plant life to finally die for the season before I make another sortie.
-William

Yes, the tunnel has been collapsed/blocked for several years now. In the early to mid 90's you could still walk through it. At the time, there were several junk couches underneath there as someones crash pad.

Here is another from the bottom of the washout during that same visit. Believe that is a Porsche 924 shell laying upside down. A couple pieces of guardrail still remain down there that you use to cross the stream.


More junk...

Edited by Aero426, 17 October 2009 - 14:52.

[WDH74]

Aer, I was down in the washout today and the guardrails (quite a lot of them!) are still there. There's also a couple of engine blocks and the remnants of a very old snowmobile. You are quite correct, the cleanup efforts have transformed the area. Although I do wish I'd seen the ruins in "ruin" state.

-Wm.

[Aero426]

Aer, I was down in the washout today and the guardrails (quite a lot of them!) are still there. There's also a couple of engine blocks and the remnants of a very old snowmobile. You are quite correct, the cleanup efforts have transformed the area. Although I do wish I'd seen the ruins in "ruin" state.

-Wm.

Here are the gas pump islands. I have not found them the last few times I've been to the track, but that has been during the summer and they must be buried in the grass behind the pits. As I recall they are to the north end of the pit area.

[ZOOOM]

I have a pitchur of the gas pumps, with a Ferrari barchetta getting fuel. The problem is that it's at the office now.
Will post on Monday...

ZOOOM

[analogkid66]

Hi Jesse!

I saw the link from NoGrip and i would like to say great stuff for doing this track!

I had made a very basic version myself a few years ago, but had to let it go, but i did collect a few pics and referance material, if you would like i can upload it to my Picasa site or send the originals!

Its such a fun track to race on, especially the twisty section coming down around the Silo!
I have the book also, which is a great read and the pictures just make me want a time machine to go back and watch, being a huge Ken Miles fan!

Keep up the Great work!

Martin.

[-Jesse-]

Hi Jesse!

I saw the link from NoGrip and i would like to say great stuff for doing this track!

I had made a very basic version myself a few years ago, but had to let it go, but i did collect a few pics and referance material, if you would like i can upload it to my Picasa site or send the originals!

Its such a fun track to race on, especially the twisty section coming down around the Silo!
I have the book also, which is a great read and the pictures just make me want a time machine to go back and watch, being a huge Ken Miles fan!

Keep up the Great work!

Martin.

Thank you! Any pics and reference material is always welcome so please upload them

Yes, it's an awesome track to drive and it's a real shame it only lived so short period of time. If I have to pick one, I'd says that my favourite part is from Steffan's straight up to the back straight and the fast blind(!) left into the Doane's corner.

The book?!

[analogkid66]

Thank you! Any pics and reference material is always welcome so please upload them

Yes, it's an awesome track to drive and it's a real shame it only lived so short period of time. If I have to pick one, I'd says that my favourite part is from Steffan's straight up to the back straight and the fast blind(!) left into the Doane's corner.

The book?!

Ive got a few scans to do then!

[ZOOOM]

This is a Ferrari Barchetta at the gas pumps back in the day. Looks like it is being refueled from the tanker truck to me..

ZOOOM

[WDH74]

So, I've got a question. I was just out there this week and wandered into the infield from the pits (ie going west) following the paved road leading off the track. It peters out fairly quickly, becoming a wood chip path. But there's a little stub of paved path leading into some weeds (it dead ends). I was standing there staring at it and thought the weeds looked odd, so I waded in. Turns out there's pavement back there. The old aerial photos don't really show what's back there (it's mostly white). What was it? I thought the infield was mostly unpaved?

Here's a shot of the path. In front is a the woodchip path. Beyond that is pavement, looks like old blacktop.



-William

[-Jesse-]

Stupid question. As we can see in many pics, there were lots of trees at MIR. But what different kinds of trees are they? It seems that there were some coniferous trees at the south section and leafy trees at other sections, but most of them I'm not familiar with.

Getting the right kind of trees into the track isn't the most important thing in this project, but it does have a big impact to the realism of the surroundings. Adding just some random trees would make it look bad...

I made this image collection of the different trees around the track.

[RA Historian]

Not a stupid question by any means. Perhaps the most unusual question asked on this forum in quite a while, though! I would like to be of some help, but unforuntately my knowledge of such matters ends with my questionable ability to tell a willow from an evergreen. To me, they are just wood!
Tom

[ZOOOM]

Nothing about trees....but...
Is the middle photo on top above.... reversed?
ZOOOM

[WDH74]

I can't tell what kinds of trees those are in the photos, but I can tell you that there's a good number of maples and oaks around there now. They're representative of the sorts of trees that are native to the Midwest. More information about native trees can be seen here. No photos sadly. I would think that you could just get the shapes and positions right rather than worrying about whether it's a silver maple or a shagbark hickory.

The period aerial photo doesn't show that many trees, at least compared to now.

-William

[-Jesse-]

RA Historian, I though long if I should find a "tree-forum" and ask it there, since it surely is OT to ask something like that here

ZOOOM, no it isn't. Full size image here

WDH74, nice link. I guess I'll find the right kind of trees with that one. The reason I need the names of the trees is that I can find images of them and make textures for the tree-objects from those images.

Edited by -Jesse-, 25 October 2009 - 08:42.

[ZOOOM]

ZOOOM[/b], no it isn't

Wow!.... I have never seen the control tower on the esst side of the main straight. That would put it right about where the shortcut was.
never remembered it there...
ZOOOM

[WDH74]

Wow!.... I have never seen the control tower on the esst side of the main straight. That would put it right about where the shortcut was.
never remembered it there...
ZOOOM

Are you sure that's the main tower? I see a building on the right, just above the trees, about where the pits should be. I don't know exactly what it is but it looks kind of temporary.

-Wm.

[-Jesse-]

It's the #1 tower of 9 towers. Here's another view of it.

The tower was just before the shortcut and it wasn't temporary since it was there from 1958 to 1969. The LIFE image is pretty good, but the towers are one of the features I'd like to have more pictures of.

Edited by -Jesse-, 26 October 2009 - 04:43.

[ZOOOM]

That looks right about where the pedestrian bridge would have been...
Must have been there for only the first few races as I don't remember it...

ZOOOM

Edited by ZOOOM, 26 October 2009 - 12:59.

[RA Historian]

It's the #1 tower of 9 towers. Here's another view of it.

Wow! Talk about looking top heavy! Those marshalls were brave individuals indeed, and that was just getting to their post!
Tom

[Jim Thurman]

We can laugh now but the Meadowdale race course was not much different than the much bragged about Riverside course in California, as far as amenities and starkness...
And Meadowdale actually had TREES!

Or for that matter, most other racing facilities of the era. "Race fans" and "spartan facilities" were synonymous.

No one bragged about Riverside's facilities. I still recall a prominently featured article in Competition Press & Autoweek when RIR got it's first permanent restroom

[donstang]

I had a car in the recent car show at Meadowdale. I can't believe I had an opportunity to drive on the track - and now it sounds like it's pretty much gone a few weeks later.

Jesse - let me know if I can help you on your project in any way - I live very close by to Meadowdale (actually grew up in Meadowdale - that part of Carpentersville) - but sadly have no old pictures to contribute (it was closed before I was 10!). The whole area was something else in the late 50's and 60's. Have you ever seen the American TV show - Wonder Years? That's exactly what it was like growing up in Meadowdale.

Anyway if you are interested in beta testers - or just willing to share your collection of Meadowdale images that you have collected, please let me know.

Thanks!

[-Jesse-]

I had a car in the recent car show at Meadowdale. I can't believe I had an opportunity to drive on the track - and now it sounds like it's pretty much gone a few weeks later.

Jesse - let me know if I can help you on your project in any way - I live very close by to Meadowdale (actually grew up in Meadowdale - that part of Carpentersville) - but sadly have no old pictures to contribute (it was closed before I was 10!). The whole area was something else in the late 50's and 60's. Have you ever seen the American TV show - Wonder Years? That's exactly what it was like growing up in Meadowdale.

Anyway if you are interested in beta testers - or just willing to share your collection of Meadowdale images that you have collected, please let me know.

Thanks!

Hi donstang,

All the measurements etc. that I can think of have been made at MIR so I believe there's not much to be done there.

There's still lots of editing to do before beta testing, but there will most certainly be a small team for that.

The pictures, videos, maps, aerial images etc. (over 2Gb total) are at the moment for those only who are making objects, textures etc. for the track. Though most of the stuff is downloaded from the net, there is stuff that are contributions to be used for this project only. I guess I will create some kind of package for the beta testers too.

This weekend I'm going to try and create a web page for the project to show a little more about the "construction".

2 seasons of The Wonder Years was aired here in Finland too, but I never saw it.

[Leigh Trevail]

This is one of my favorite threads, much more interesting than the ones that I start, but!

Where is Meadowdale?

When did it open?

When and why did it close?

[alansart]

This is one of my favorite threads, much more interesting than the ones that I start, but!

Where is Meadowdale?

42° 7'1.78"N 88°18'14.75"W on Google Maps

[RA Historian]

This is one of my favorite threads, much more interesting than the ones that I start, but!

Where is Meadowdale? Carpentersville, Illinois, west northwest of Chicago, probably some 30 miles or so from Chicago and 100 miles from Milwaukee

When did it open? Sept. 1958, SCCA Regional

When and why did it close?May need a little help on the exact year, but I believe 1969 may have been the last year. Why? Probably because it wasn't making any money. Beyond that, I understand that the SCCA may have pulled its sanction from any future events after a particularly crash-filled event in early 1969.

Tom

[donstang]

Hi donstang,

All the measurements etc. that I can think of have been made at MIR so I believe there's not much to be done there.

There's still lots of editing to do before beta testing, but there will most certainly be a small team for that.

The pictures, videos, maps, aerial images etc. (over 2Gb total) are at the moment for those only who are making objects, textures etc. for the track. Though most of the stuff is downloaded from the net, there is stuff that are contributions to be used for this project only. I guess I will create some kind of package for the beta testers too.

This weekend I'm going to try and create a web page for the project to show a little more about the "construction".

2 seasons of The Wonder Years was aired here in Finland too, but I never saw it.

Jesse - I'm willing to help in any way I can. For that car show I attended, I couldn't believe they were actually going to let us drive our cars up from the entrance at the silo to the main straight. In the past year or so, a bridge had been constructed over that little washout near the silo. Sure enough, on the day of the show, as I pulled up next to that historic silo, I was directed on to the track, over the bridge and made my way uphill all the way to the main straight (in my 1965 Mustang). I held my phone on the dash to record it in video....

Driving on the track at Meadowdale

I don't know if you already have it but there is also a somewhat recent short video of the first day.

First Day Running at Meadowdale

Best of luck with your project - sounds very cool - and can't wait to see it.

Edited by donstang, 29 October 2009 - 17:46.

[-Jesse-]

Thank you dostang. I will post more info about beta testing etc. when the time is right.

One thing came to my mind. Is the wall next to the silo still there? The wall on the right side of the silo

It can be modelled quite accurately by guessing the dimensions, but if it's still there, a few dimensions of it would be great.

As I'm constantly searching for MIR material, I've seen those videos before. But cool stuff nevertheless!

I wish I could one day drive or at least walk the real track myself

More soon!

Edited by -Jesse-, 29 October 2009 - 18:22.

[Leigh Trevail]

Thank you Alan and Tom. It is barely conceivable that such a complex would stay open for little more than a decade. It seems a great shame!

[ZOOOM]

WOW! I've never seen those movies of the original race at Meadowdale. As I have said the track was buldozed out of the ground and no grass was ever sown. You can see the dust bowl that was the first race!

memories!

ZOOOM

[donstang]

Thank you dostang. I will post more info about beta testing etc. when the time is right.

One thing came to my mind. Is the wall next to the silo still there? The wall on the right side of the silo

It can be modelled quite accurately by guessing the dimensions, but if it's still there, a few dimensions of it would be great.

As I'm constantly searching for MIR material, I've seen those videos before. But cool stuff nevertheless!

I wish I could one day drive or at least walk the real track myself

More soon!

That wall is not there - I'm not sure if you referring to foundation walls (was probably a barn at some point before the track was every built) or the fence next to the silo by the track - but both are long gone. The silo itself has to be a remnant of when this area was all farmland. Besinger probably wanted to leave it there when the track was built.

Have you played around with Microsoft's web maps tool. It lets you take a "bird's eye" view of the area. You can really look at the track from different angles (fairly close).

Here's the silo area (it's from a few years back before they restored it) - but you can see the land around it.....

Bing Maps Bird's Eye View of Meadowdale Silo

Edited by donstang, 29 October 2009 - 21:05.

[WDH74]

One thing came to my mind. Is the wall next to the silo still there? The wall on the right side of the silo

That wall is not there - I'm not sure if you referring to foundation walls (was probably a barn at some point before the track was every built) or the fence next to the silo by the track - but both are long gone. The silo itself has to be a remnant of when this area was all farmland. Besinger probably wanted to leave it there when the track was built.

As donstang says the wall is no longer there-I believe it was removed when the silo was rehabbed. It would have been the lower walls of a typical wood barn-the castle-esque holes in it were where the windows would have been. If I am not mistaken it was smooth concrete, and there was likely a concrete floor inside it, at least in the sixties (it was full of dirt the one time I looked inside, several years ago). Such relics are common here in the Midwest-there are plenty of barn foundations with an attached silo out west towards DeKalb. I would guess that expense would have kept it from being removed originally, especially if Besinger wanted to keep the silo for advertising purposes.

-WDH

[donstang]

Since this is the Nostalgia forum, I just wanted to share that besides and before MIR....Besinger (the man who built MIR) built Meadowdale - the community. The center of Meadowdale was the Meadowdale Shopping Center (JFK spoke there while campaigning in 1960).

Here's some more on the nostalgia of Meadowdale - the community:

Meadowdale Shopping Center

[RA Historian]

Since this is the Nostalgia forum, I just wanted to share that besides and before MIR....Besinger (the man who built MIR) built Meadowdale - the community. The center of Meadowdale was the Meadowdale Shopping Center (JFK spoke there while campaigning in 1960).

I had forgotten all about that, but you are right. Now that you mention it I do recall that there was more to Meadowdale than the track. I have not thought about it since the times I was there in the early sixties. I do remember signs, billboards, and the like on the highways around the track directing one to the village and the shopping center and whatever else Besinger was building, but of course never gave it another thought. But it just goes to show that for a lot of us here the center of the world is about the racing and that the balance is just so much to be overlooked!
Tom

[WDH74]

I'll have to go take a look at that mall. Retail history is a hobby of mine. Thanks for the info donstang!

-Wm.